SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS

[erragal]

Ohhhh now I remember you For those interested: Read this thread 

DotA has variable turn speeds for every character. So you are actually just lying if you've played that much. Turn speed affects your ability to change position and punishes you for over extension. It is very decidedly a movement penalty.

Turn speed does not affect the recovery/attack speed of a unit. It only affects your ability to begin moving to the side or behind you from your current position (or turning to hit other targets).I actually would not have complained if this game had turn speed/turning mechanics - but it doesn't. It would have been fun to run in circles around an Ogre who couldn't turn as fast as you.

Here's a situation where you said something that was flat-out incorrect (Dota has no movement penalty). You were proven wrong. You, instead of admitting you're mistake, refrained the argument to say "oh no what i meant to say was Dota doesn't affect your recovery speed when you move".

 

Yet again, you argue in bad faith. Shifting the goalposts, backtracking, diverting the conversation.

 

Don't worry I'll keep pointing it out because I'm a nice guy that way.

[Sensuki]

Pretty sure you knew exactly what I was talking about there bud, but feel free to twist it your way because you have a personal problem with me.

 

Turn rate is not a movement penalty either, it's part of the movement system. Abilities that slow down the turn-rate such as the Batriders Sticky Napalm create a movement penalty, but not a systemic one.

 

You don't have a lower turn rate by taking certain actions in the game (such as moving, or attacking), it's simply one turn-rate for each unit. It's a different philosophy to the one used in Pillars of Eternity (and a much better one).

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sensuki

[erragal]

I'd take your own advise there erragal - one only has to read the insults you put towards me in that thread to find that ironic.

I know you had a rough go of it and you're sensitive so let's differentiate.

 

When a person is being aggressive, closed-minded, demeaning towards others and someone points it out...that is not an insult. You may feel insulted by my temerity...but your behavior led to the result. If you don't want people to highlight those behaviors than correct them.

 

There is an enormous difference between calling out behaviors and trying to tell someone they have a developmental disorder. Specifically if he had said "Erragal you're very confrontational and preachy " that's 100% true. But he failed to address anything real and instead relied on trying to be "funny" while simultaneously disparaging real humans with development disorders (people I work with no less.)

 

Also not irony. I'll let you hash that one out.

[Tartantyco]

Just kiss already, guys...

[Sensuki]

The only posts you've made on this forum are in two threads to respond to me when I've been discussing topics related to sticky movement. You are not here to discuss the topic, so I'm not going to bother to reply to you anymore.

[Flow]

I am 100% convinced that most people will play the game and not even notice what Sensuki et al. perceive to be catastrophic problems with movement.

 

You've filed your report (incredibly rudely, as usual), and you're going to mod the game to your liking. Fair enough. Given that, it really doesn't matter if anyone agrees with your position.

 

Move on.

[Jimmy]

Just registered to say keep fighting the good fight Errgal.

 

I think I like many others have actively avoided posting here as the incessant petulance can be totally overwhelming at times. Even when there are legitimate issues to be discussed it quickly devolves into thinly-veiled insults and complete indignation that people's personal whims aren't being catered to at every opportunity. And to see the very same people start throwing around 'autism' as an insult and accusing others of operating in an 'echo-chamber' is just too much. Playing the victim as soon as you're called out on it is frankly all to predictable.

[Whipstitch]

Full attacks were a bad mechanic that really shined a light on how profoundly limited melee characters really were beyond the early levels. The Book of 9 Swords may as well have had "We know it's late, but here's some stuff warriors can do with a standard action" scrawled across the front.

[Luckmann]

I am 100% convinced that most people will play the game and not even notice what Sensuki et al. perceive to be catastrophic problems with movement.

 

You've filed your report (incredibly rudely, as usual), and you're going to mod the game to your liking. Fair enough. Given that, it really doesn't matter if anyone agrees with your position.

 

Move on.

Of course it matters. It matters for the purpose of the game whether the mechanics are good or bad at achieving their purpose.

 

In this case.. not really, no.

[Sensuki]

You've filed your report (incredibly rudely, as usual), and you're going to mod the game to your liking.

I don't see how the fact that I have stated that I am going to mod it out of the game changes a single thing. A bad mechanic is a bad mechanic.

 

It's also really stupid that it promotes standing still until you've recovered to use a movement based ability, because that is faster than moving and then using it.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sensuki

[Whipstitch]

When a person is being aggressive, closed-minded, demeaning towards others and someone points it out...that is not an insult. You may feel insulted by my temerity...but your behavior led to the result. If you don't want people to highlight those behaviors than correct them.

Alternatively, you could just quit being a ****.

[Flow]

Of course it matters. It matters for the purpose of the game whether the mechanics are good or bad at achieving their purpose.

 

In this case.. not really, no.

 

 

Please don't make me explain the concept of opinions. It's early. I haven't had coffee yet.

[Mazisky]

So, to summarize, the problem is that in-combat movement is penalized?

 

If yes, it's not a good thing, unless they fill up by adding many movement-related skills and talents

Edited March 19, 2015 by Mazisky

[Quantics]

The cost of moving is moving itself [...]

 

Quoting for truth. 

 

Add me to the list of people who are unhappy about this 'feature'.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Quantics

[Sensuki]

There are movement-related abilities and talents, but using something like Wild Sprint after you've made an attack (which you know, is when you want to use it) forces you to stand still to wait until the ability goes off because it's pointless to move first with the recovery slow, because it will take ages to go off.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sensuki

[Whipstitch]

Please don't make me explain the concept of opinions. It's early. I haven't had coffee yet.

People know what opinions are. Virtually everything regarding matters of entertainment is going to be to some degree subjective so it's safe to assume that there's a tacit understanding that opinions are, in fact, opinions. It's disingenuous to be dismissive of people merely for not making the tacit explicit, especially when Luckmann and Sensuki actually did explicitly acknowledge that their opinions are opinions earlier in the thread. I understand that you want people to move on from this topic, but if that's you're goal you may as well just keep posting "Move on" rather than sticking around but being all grumpy about it.

[iampolo]

Im just here to say that you might not like sensuki or the way he communicates his worries about the game. But this is because he is probably really passionate about it, he reported hundreds of bugs, so you might want to take is easy, cause even when you may disagree with his way of reporting some of this stuff, hes done A LOT to improve the game.

Some of the people here are prob. discarding his suggestion without even having played the bb, or knowing the mechanichs of combat, just because you dont like him.

[axedice]

deflection and reflexes defenses are numerical values designed to represent the ducking/diving/rolling/circling/foot by foot repositioning that occurs in micro moments during combat. That's why this is a pnp based system and not an action rpg. It's not intended in pnp that players need to have 1 to 1 evasion of enemy attacks with mobility 

 

I agree with this, RTwP should definitely be twitch-free, unlike MMO's or MOBA's. While I don't think this was the reason for implementing the recovery penalty, it's still an important point when comparing games.

 

I don't find the penalty offensive btw, it's consistent with the game world and combat mechanics. Getting into a flanking position should cost the melee characters some something. Even so, I wouldn't mind much if they removed it in a future patch, not a game-breaking mechanic imo

[Striped_Wolf]

I also play DotA 2, and have played DotA since 2004. DotA is the most tactical game there is. It also has no movement penalties, and a similar recovery system to Pillars of Eternity.

I have to disagree with this. DOTA is extremely fast paced and unforgiving, but that doesnt make it more 'tactical' than any other game. A huge part of DOTA is knowing what every item does in order to not waste time browsing the store, and I wouldnt really call that 'tactical'. 

Tactical would be mechanics that affect the outcome of your actions. In fact, both Engagement and Recovery Penalty are such mechanics. This doesnt necessarily make them 'fun' however, but they are not making combat less tactical. Only different.

[Sensuki]

RTwP is twitch free is because it is Real Time With Pause.

 

Tactical would be mechanics that affect the outcome of your actions. In fact, both Engagement and Recovery Penalty are such mechanics. This doesnt necessarily make them 'fun' however, but they are not making combat less tactical. Only different.

If you're disagreeing about DotA being tactical then you clearly don't know much about the game. It is lightning fast, but you have to make tactical decisions ALL the time, you are constantly doing it.

 

EVERYTHING matters - movement, positioning, ability timing, ability order, ability synergy, using the terrain and fog of war ... there are so many decisions you make every few seconds that are tactical decisions, and most of them you do without thinking.

 

It's fast, but it is super tactical.

 

In fact, both Engagement and Recovery Penalty are such mechanics. This doesnt necessarily make them 'fun' however, but they are not making combat less tactical. Only different.

I think they make the combat less tactical, because they penalize certain tactics, pigeonholing you into using certain strategies instead.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sensuki

[mrmonocle]

I remember in earlier releases there was no recovery wwhile movement at all.

[Striped_Wolf]

 

Tactical would be mechanics that affect the outcome of your actions. In fact, both Engagement and Recovery Penalty are such mechanics. This doesnt necessarily make them 'fun' however, but they are not making combat less tactical. Only different.

If you're disagreeing about DotA being tactical then you clearly don't know much about the game. It is lightning fast, but you have to make tactical decisions ALL the time, you are constantly doing it.

 

EVERYTHING matters - movement, positioning, ability timing, ability order, ability synergy, using the terrain and fog of war ... there are so many decisions you make every few seconds that are tactical decisions, and most of them you do without thinking.

 

It's fast, but it is super tactical.

 

I wasnt saying that. It is indeed a tactical game. I am disagreeing with the statement that DOTA is The most tactical game there is.

 

I do not measure tactical depth by number of parameters, but rather by profound mechanics.

 

In order to make PoE more tactical, I would like to see an improved AI.

These other mechanics I am kindof indifferent about. They take away while adding new elements.

 

 

 

I think they make the combat less tactical, because they penalize certain tactics, pigeonholing you into using certain strategies instead.

 

They may be, but they are also making you think ahead to a larger extent. Your actions carry more weight so to speak. "Do I really want to engage with this dude, or do I need to stop him because Engaging will have aftereffects reverberating throughout the encounter. I may need to retreat or disable him and Engage that other dude first."

Edited March 19, 2015 by Striped_Wolf

[Sensuki]

What real-time game is more tactical?

 

I remember in earlier releases there was no recovery wwhile movement at all.

That's right - I campaigned for it to be removed. I made threads, and I even modded it out myself and made a video of it, and demonstrated a problem with it.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sensuki

[Tartantyco]

DotA? How about Snore-...ta?

[mrmonocle]

What real-time game is more tactical?

 

I remember in earlier releases there was no recovery wwhile movement at all.

That's right - I campaigned for it to be removed. I made threads, and I even modded it out myself and made a video of it, and demonstrated a problem with it.

 

then why u still complain? it's natural that you restore composure at a slower rate while you're moving! try running and shooting things with maximal presicion.