Question about Rogue's talent progress in character creation about backstab/shadowing beyond

[roguelike]

Maybe rogues just shouldn't have two talents that are mostly worthless without each other in the first place.  Give Shadowing Beyond some kind of damage multiplier (your next attack does 1.5x damage) and make backstab a damage bonus on top of sneak attack (close range sneak attacks deal 1.75x damage instead of 1.5x).  Now they're both useful for a variety of builds and they complement each other without being necessary.

[ISC]

What is "close range" here, is it melee contact or a few meters?

[aeonsim]

I've asked JS about this before and the reply was that it should work at close range even with ranged weapons and while sneaking (when they fix the current sneaking bug which limits it to your char level). As a result a rogue at close range opening with a blunderbuss and day blinding strike will have something like a minimal damage multiplier of 2.5 from the combination of sneak attack, special attack and back stab before weapon and other damage modifiers are applied. That should give a pretty good chance of killing many creatures with the first hit.

[ushas]

What is "close range" here, is it melee contact or a few meters?

 

Not knowing exact definition nor measurements in game, I think it may be something like maximum reach of a melee weapon? At least in this case. With a bow you will be able to use Backstab at the distance of reach weapons like pikes (~1.75m). So not completely "close" but a few steps away at max...

Edited March 9, 2015 by ushas

[firesnakearies]

I tested rogues quite extensively in version 392.  I haven't played 435 yet, and I know some significant things have changed, so any of my observations may no longer be accurate.

Based on my testing though, rogues were amazing.  I was able to clear Path of the Damned quite easily with a party of six rogues.  Backstab does a heap of damage.  Although, at least in 392, you could not Backstab with an ability (such as Blinding Strike).  It had to be just a normal attack.  If you used an ability, you didn't get Backstab damage.  You COULD do it with a ranged weapon, and didn't have to be right next to the target, but still pretty close.  Backstabs with arquebuses or blunderbusses (especially Lead Spitter) could be quite spectacular.  Even without Shadowing Beyond, you could have one Backstab every encounter, and more or less kill or nearly kill a target right in the beginning of a fight.  Sneaking your rogue back to the rear and gibbing an enemy spellcaster at the start of combat is pretty great.

 

Shadowing Beyond is much more powerful than I think people are giving it credit for.  I'd go so far as to say it's the single most powerful talent in the game.  It's the only thing (that I know of) in the game that actually lets you leave combat/reset combat/escape.  This is super good for, say soloing (especially soloing PotD or even Hard).  It lets you do things that you cannot do without a rogue who has this ability.

Did you know that if you have at least one rogue, you can complete every quest in the backer beta (and level to the beta cap) without killing a single thing?  You can ALMOST do this without a rogue (just decent stealth for your whole party), but not quite.  Because there's no way to get into the temple of Skaen without triggering a fight.  Either against the beetles around the statue entrance, or the leatherworker and his apprentice in the shop.  But if you have a rogue, you can sneak up to the statue and initiate the scripted interaction, open the way to the other map, then when you are automatically popped out of stealth and attacked, you can use Shadowing Beyond to exit the encounter.  Then you can just sneak your whole party up and hit the map transition before you're detected.

You can also do things like get the dragon egg without having to fight or pay the band of mercenaries, by doing the same thing.  Sneak up, do the scripted interaction, get pulled into the conversation automatically, but then just Shadowing Beyond your way out of it.

If you really want to cheese things, (or you're soloing a high difficulty), you can just sneak up, assassinate a single foe quickly, then vanish with Shadowing Beyond.  Repeat as often as you desire, resting every couple of times.   You can clear whole maps full of grouped enemies this way.  Which can only be done with Shadowing Beyond.  Any other class would have to kill all of the enemies of a group once they became aggro'ed, unable to leave the map until they were all dead.  But the rogue can hit and run, unlike anyone else.

 

The all-rogue party (or solo rogue) also has the singular ability to duck out of those annoying situations where you get forced into a cutscene/dialogue and then jumped without having the chance to position or open the fight your own way.  When that happens, you can just have everyone Shadowing Beyond, and then you can leave or use your stealth opening on the enemies however you wish.

 

Now, maybe there will be other means of gaining in-combat invisibility which drops you out of combat.  Like invisibility potions or something.  If so, then Shadowing Beyond is much less cool.  But if it remains the only way to actually leave combat, it will have enormous utility in many ways throughout the game, most especially when soloing, or doing trial of iron + path of the damned.  Being able to complete more quests without having to fight will let you level up more before having to fight.

Not for my first playthrough of course, but after that I'd like to run a solo rogue and find out exactly how high a level I can get in the whole game without having to kill anything.

 

Maybe this has all changed in 435 or later versions.  I dunno.  But calling Shadowing Beyond useless is just plain unimaginative.  And Backstab is quite good as well, if you use the right tactics.  Of course, some people don't like stealthy, deliberate, planning-intensive roguey gameplay style.  In which case, yeah, it's a lot less good.  But I think it's amazing.

Edited March 9, 2015 by firesnakearies

[Sensuki]

Since they changed the damage calculation from multiplicative to additive in v435 - Rogue damage doesn't scale anywhere near as high as it does in v392.

[roguelike]

Was Shadowing Beyond not combat only in v392?

 

Cheesing things with shadowing beyond was like the first thing I tried in 435 and it went really, really poorly.  The AI will still run up to you once you're invisible, so to disengage you have to actually wait for everyone to come touch you, then run away.  The duration seems really short, although that might be because of the new idle AI that loves to ignore commands and randomly attack the nearest enemy for no reason.  The same AI will cancel casting Shadowing Beyond if you're interrupted or engaged.  I dunno, I didn't try very hard but it seemed hard to cheese with, especially with only 2/rest.

 

Any class with a move speed bonus (Chanter, Monk, Paladin) is better at escaping combat and Rangers can actually die and come back as long as they leave their animal companion sompeplace safe and get far enough from where the enemies are anchored.

Edited March 9, 2015 by roguelike

[TrueMenace]

Why are people ignoring the fact that you get backstab at level 2 and Shadowing Beyond at level 4. It should be switched to make the class from ok to great... 

[ISC]

Why are people ignoring the fact that you get backstab at level 2 and Shadowing Beyond at level 4. It should be switched to make the class from ok to great... 

 

Because its nowhere near as problematic when you can use backstab from normal mundane stealth rather than having to use it together with a special talent that makes you magically invisible. Backstab is apparently far from useless on its own.

[TrueMenace]

but you can't use stealth during combat....

[wanderon]

But you can use it to start combat

[Striped_Wolf]

My backstab experience with the IE games was exactly that: You do it once from stealth and thats it. You *could* restealth using different tricks, but the backstab at the start of combat was the main thing about backstabbing, and it was often pretty great.
Then they introduced the shadow dancer thief kit which seems to resemble more a rogue with the Shadowing Beyond ability, but with reduced backstab multiplier as a tradeoff.

In this game you even got sneak attacks when visible so I dont really see any problem.
 

Edited March 9, 2015 by Striped_Wolf

[Whipstitch]

In my experience people tend to really underestimate the shenanigans an IE thief could get up to. A BGII Assassin or Bounty Hunter with Boots of Speed and a corner or column to work with was a real wrecking ball.

[Luckmann]

My backstab experience with the IE games was exactly that: You do it once from stealth and thats it. You *could* restealth using different tricks, but the backstab at the start of combat was the main thing about backstabbing, and it was often pretty great.

Just because you played it that way doesn't make it the right way. If you were good at backstabbing, opening combat with it was definitely not the "main thing" you did with it.

 

The best way to utilize backstabs in the IE games (BG2, mainly, at least) was to initiate combat with someone else and wait for the best time to actually initiate with the backstabber, and then, depending on the encounter, repeatedly re-stealth (once you have Boots of Speed, or if you have Invisibility Potions to spare) and just keep backstabbing like mad. If all you're doing in the IE games is to backstab once (INITIATING, even!) you are seriously wasting the potential of backstabbing.

 

Then they introduced the shadow dancer thief kit which seems to resemble more a rogue with the Shadowing Beyond ability, but with reduced backstab multiplier as a tradeoff.

 

In this game you even got sneak attacks when visible so I dont really see any problem.

Eeeh.. "they" didn't "introduce" the Shadow Dancer Thief Kit. It's something that Beamdog came up with for their BG2 "Enhanced" Edition. It's essentially a mod.

 

In my experience people tend to really underestimate the shenanigans an IE thief could get up to. A BGII Assassin or Bounty Hunter with Boots of Speed and a corner or column to work with was a real wrecking ball.

This. Assassins in BG2 are utterly, utterly insane. Repeated, unlimited 9x damage modifiers against a wealth of enemies. Shenanigans is an epic understatement. I don't understand why so many seem to underestimate it so much. It's all about positioning, tactical introduction of the backstabber, and then just keep wrecking ****.

[TrueMenace]

You guys are missing the big picture here and it's starting to get a little irritating...

 

Ok sure you can open up your first attack with a stealthed backstab from a Rogue, but during combat, backstabs are useless because you can't stealth...

 

What I am proposing in my original OP is a win/win situation for all of us here, but no one can seem to understand this...

 

If you get access to Shadowing Beyond at level 2 and Backstab at level 4, you are now a much more flexible Rogue.

 

At level 2, you choose Shadowing Beyond, great. At level 4, you have the option of choosing Backstab, BUT can opt for other talents as well. 

 

The way it is at the moment, you are given Backstab at level 2, and you are kinda forced to take Shadowing Beyond at level 4 even though there are other talents you may want.

 

With my proposed change, you get Shadowing Beyond at level 2, and at level 4 you can augment your build with Backstab OR choose another talent if you wish, but you aren't pidgeon-holed into picking Backstab. 

 

If you have backstab at level 2, you really want Shadowing Beyond so you can CONTINUE to use backstab once combat begins. But if you get Shadowing Beyond at level 2, you don't have to choose backstab at level 4, you can choose other talents if you wish and it won't gimp your build.

 

Why is this so hard to understand? You guys are talking about how amazing backstab is to instantly kill a foe before combat begins in stealth.

 

WELL GREAT! But that doesn't solve anything! And I'm not saying Backstab is useless without Shadowing Beyond, but comes much more useful when you do have it in combat. 

Edited March 9, 2015 by TrueMenace

[Striped_Wolf]

No I do understand what you mean, TrueMenace: you want to be able to backstab as much as possible from the get go.

 

 

Just because you played it that way doesn't make it the right way. If you were good at backstabbing, opening combat with it was definitely not the "main thing" you did with it.

 

In fact it was. Im speaking from my own perspective here.
And I didnt necessarily *open* the combat with it, but in most fights I used it only once when breaking stealth since that was, in most cases, enough for me.
Sure I couldve cheesed more, but cheesing isnt really my thing


The way I see it, now you have an option. First you pick backstab. Later you can choose to specialize in that type of combat by picking Shadowing Beyond, or you could pick other talents beacuse maybe 1 backstab per encounter is enough for your specific build.

In fact, the character I have planned is of the gun-toting survivor type. Shadowing Beyond feels a bit too 'magical' for my taste and wont suit this character. Backstab will fit nicely though, and I will probably need Escape aswell.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Striped_Wolf

[ISC]

You guys are missing the big picture here and it's starting to get a little irritating...

 

Ok sure you can open up your first attack with a stealthed backstab from a Rogue, but during combat, backstabs are useless because you can't stealth...

 

What I am proposing in my original OP is a win/win situation for all of us here, but no one can seem to understand this...

 

If you get access to Shadowing Beyond at level 2 and Backstab at level 4, you are now a much more flexible Rogue.

 

At level 2, you choose Shadowing Beyond, great. At level 4, you have the option of choosing Backstab, BUT can opt for other talents as well. 

 

The way it is at the moment, you are given Backstab at level 2, and you are kinda forced to take Shadowing Beyond at level 4 even though there are other talents you may want.

 

With my proposed change, you get Shadowing Beyond at level 2, and at level 4 you can augment your build with Backstab OR choose another talent if you wish, but you aren't pidgeon-holed into picking Backstab. 

 

If you have backstab at level 2, you really want Shadowing Beyond so you can CONTINUE to use backstab once combat begins. But if you get Shadowing Beyond at level 2, you don't have to choose backstab at level 4, you can choose other talents if you wish and it won't gimp your build.

 

Why is this so hard to understand? You guys are talking about how amazing backstab is to instantly kill a foe before combat begins in stealth.

 

WELL GREAT! But that doesn't solve anything! And I'm not saying Backstab is useless without Shadowing Beyond, but comes much more useful when you do have it in combat. 

 

Actually, I dont think we are missing anything, we are just thinking a bit differently about the value of and relationship between the two talents. From what I've heard I strongly disagree with (1) that you are forced to take shadowing beyond at level 4, (2) that not taking it will gimp your build and (3) that backstab is much more useful with it. Why? Well, mainly because it is 2/rest, which means that you will NOT be re-stealthing a lot in combat but at rare occasions. I dont know about you, but I dont plan to rest after every second encounter. If so, you will be using backstab more without shadowing than with it. I personally have no plans of taking shadowing beyond despite being a compulsive power-gamer (rather because of it). Now, if shadowing beyond would be a 2/encounter ability, or even 1/encounter, it would be an entirely different thing. But right now shadowing is a special one hit wonder ability and not your standard backstab ability. It is one way of doing it, the abilities work well together, but they are by no means necessarily used together. If you think its worth a talent to have 2 extra backstabs /rest, however, go ahead. I see the two as abilities that are useful on their own but has more potential together.

[TrueMenace]

What if they make Shadowing Beyond at 2 per encounter ability, give that to you at level 2. and you get access to Backstab at level 4. Keep in mind, Backstab is a passive and only works in stealth before combat begins until shadowing beyond. Gives you more freedom with the Rogue. Then when you get both, you become a invisible 1-shotter per encounter essentially

Edited March 9, 2015 by TrueMenace

[Elerond]

What if they make Shadowing Beyond at 2 per encounter ability, give that to you at level 2. and you get access to Backstab at level 4. Keep in mind, Backstab is a passive and only works in stealth before combat begins until shadowing beyond. Gives you more freedom with the Rogue. Then when you get both, you become a invisible 1-shotter per encounter essentially

 

They would need to drop damage bonus that backstap gives, or rise level when you get those abilities. Now backstap works somewhat similarly that it worked in BG, with that exception that you need to start combat with backstap attack as stealth ends when combat starts, but that is somewhat compensated by rogues sneak attack, which consistently give them damage boost. Shadowing Beyond is it own ability that has great synergy with backstap. In my opinion rogues don't need boost, given that they fix stealth. 

[Luckmann]

In fact it was. Im speaking from my own perspective here.

 

English. Plural "you". It's weird, I know.

 

And I didnt necessarily *open* the combat with it, but in most fights I used it only once when breaking stealth since that was, in most cases, enough for me.

 

Sure I couldve cheesed more, but cheesing isnt really my thing

 

The way I see it, now you have an option. First you pick backstab. Later you can choose to specialize in that type of combat by picking Shadowing Beyond, or you could pick other talents beacuse maybe 1 backstab per encounter is enough for your specific build.

 

In fact, the character I have planned is of the gun-toting survivor type. Shadowing Beyond feels a bit too 'magical' for my taste and wont suit this character. Backstab will fit nicely though, and I will probably need Escape aswell.

 

It's not cheese. Cheesing is when you abuse game mechanics to your benefit, trivializing gameplay. In BG2, backstabbing during combat was a legitimate tactic, with meaningful tradeoffs and you actually had to think to employ it properly.

 

But my gripe really wasn't with how it works in PoE, but regarding your erroneous comment on how to properly use backstabbing in the IE games. If you're going to draw parallels to those games, we should at least be knowledgeable about the mechanics involved and how they were employed or implemented.

 

That being said, the "choice" in PoE is essentially a trap choice. Initiating with backstabbing isn't just hard, it's something you should practically never do (at least not against opponents that are already hostile; it works against Madred's group, not so much in a dungeon). This is all as of BBv435, of course. It may change, but it is doubtful.

 

And forget about tactical deployment of backstabbing as you could do in the Infinite Engine games, because once combat starts, you can't be in stealth. You just flat-out can't, no ifs or buts or whys; combat starts due to any reason whatsoever, stealth just stops, for the entire group.

 

Comparisons to the IE games simply do not apply, because whether you were bad at using backstabbing as a mechanic or if you were great at mastering tactical deployment once an encounter started, or went re-stealthing multiple times (which is also completely impossible in PoE; even Shadowing Beyond is just 2/rest) the system is just so different (I would say useless and without any tactical depth whatsoever).

 

 

Also, unless you plan to take the Shadowing Beyond Ability, odds are that the Backstab Ability will be dead weight 9 times out of 10.

 

Edited March 9, 2015 by Luckmann

[wanderon]

I've been fooling with some rogue builds and frankly I have passed on Backstab due to low opportunity but often taken shadowing beyond as an additional escape or otherwise "sneaky" option for tactical use in battle.

[Osvir]

Oh Shadowing Beyond   it could be so much more!

Short version:
- Scouting Mode (Search Mode? Readied Mode?) for trap seeking and dungeon sneaking (That "Transparency" that is put ontop of the character's wouldn't be needed either)
- Shadowing Beyond for scouting "beyond" enemy lines... too bad it's a Combat Only ability :/

[Luckmann]

Oh Shadowing Beyond   it could be so much more!

 

Short version:

- Scouting Mode (Search Mode? Readied Mode?) for trap seeking and dungeon sneaking (That "Transparency" that is put ontop of the character's wouldn't be needed either)

- Shadowing Beyond for scouting "beyond" enemy lines... too bad it's a Combat Only ability :/

 

Too bad anything is Combat Only.

 

As far as I'm concerned, two things need to happen in order for stealthing to be viable in any form in PoE:

• Combat needs to not break Stealth automagically party-wide.
• "Combat Only" needs needs to die, beaten and bloody, in a raging fire.

In relation to this conversation specifically, it would make Backstab more worthwile, and make Shadowing Beyond usable as a utility, beyond mere combat application (such as assisting in lining up an opening/early-combat backstab where you think you'd otherwise be discovered).

 

I also personally feel that Shadowing Beyond should be upped to 3/rest, but that's debatable.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Luckmann

[ISC]

I would like to see SB as a 1/encounter.

 

Luckmann, if I understand you correct you're saying that (ranged) backstab is NOT viable without SB? Why is this, because you have to be so close to the enemy for it to work? If so, and if that's intended and shouldn't be fixed, I rest my case and fully agree on that SB should come prior to BS in the progression. 

[TrueMenace]

Keep backstab a passive. Make SB a 2/encounter (1/encounter is ehh?). Would make the Rogue super powerful. Get SB at level 2, backstab lv. 4. or have a choice between the 2 at level 2 from the get go.

 

Everyone wins in this thread.