charms Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 To figure out why there aren't any romance subplots in this game, you need to go all the way back to Baldur's Gate. Regardless of their alignment, race, class, or hit dice, the companion NPCs in Baldur's Gate 1 felt like real people. They had motivations, backstories, and most importantly, personalities. They weren't just tethered to the PC - they could dynamically interact with other members of the party, forming relationships or breaking them if there was too much conflict. The end result of all this was that it didn't feel like you were the center of the world - your companions had autonomy and could interact with the game world themselves. The developers thought this was too much for the sequel. Instead, they made everything about the player character - you are the most important thing in the universe and everyone else acts like it. Back in the 90's this meant that some of the characters were forced to fall in love with you (they were all elf females because that's what gamers wanted in the 20th century, but I'm sure if BG2 were created in this age of creeping Ideological Fetishism, there would be an gay gnome or a transgender ooze gensai in addition). I think one of them had a cringe-inducing pregnancy system where at the end of it you could put the baby into your quick item slot if you didn't want to sell it to a weapon smith. Not only were the romancable characters ruined by this character focus, but all the other characters were deteriorated from it as well. The characters that came from BG1 didn't retain the agency they once had(there wasn't any good reason for most of them to be in Athkatla anyway) and the new characters all had a unquestioned, Bioware-like devotion to the PC. They didn't have their own lives - instead of going off on their own adventures when you kicked them out of the party, they would all await your return at the Copper Coronet, drinking their now-purposeless lives away as if they were PCs in a typical role-playing enforced MUD. My point is, romance can never be done right, because it's a symptom of bad writing, which itself is the symptom of misplaced focus. In order to have romance subplots, you have to make the player character the focal point of the game world, doing which puts everything in jeopardy. It's better to have realistic characters than romantic ones.
Stun Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) If I remember correctly, the only two romances that Obsidian did was in Mask of the Betrayer and Alpha Protocol. There was also Kotor 2. And NWN2 OC... or have our minds blocked out the painful experience of the Elanee and Casavir romances? :::shudder::: Edited January 6, 2015 by Stun
Tsuga C Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 And NWN2 OC... or have our minds blocked out the painful experience of the Elanee and Casavir romances? :::shudder::: Elanee the Stalker, Casavir the Broken Record (Old Owl Well, Old Owl Well, Old Owl Well), and Bishop the Silent (his content was cut, can't remember why). This is clear evidence that the writers need to: a] run this stuff by others outside of their own little echo chamber and b] allow enough time to do it right or just not bother. Romance is all fine and good, but if it's not up to the level of Nathyrra or Valen in Hordes of the Underdark, then I'd just as soon the writers concentrate their efforts elsewhere. 1 http://cbrrescue.org/ Go afield with a good attitude, with respect for the wildlife you hunt and for the forests and fields in which you walk. Immerse yourself in the outdoors experience. It will cleanse your soul and make you a better person.----Fred Bear http://michigansaf.org/
Lord Wafflebum Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 @Stun You wouldn't happen to have any links handy for Chris' anti-romance blogs would you? I would very much like to read his viewpoint on it.
Yellow Rabbit Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 My point is, romance can never be done right, because it's a symptom of bad writing, which itself is the symptom of misplaced focus. In order to have romance subplots, you have to make the player character the focal point of the game world, doing which puts everything in jeopardy. It's better to have realistic characters than romantic ones. Why so harsh? Romantic characters are realistic because, generally speaking, romance is a natural thing. Getting PC-NPC romance done right is not impossible, it just requires ridiculous amount of work from narrative designer to make it feel natural. NPC-NPC romance is much easier because writer is in full control of both characters whose relationship he wants to flesh out. I believe that is the reason why Obs decided not to bother with PC-NPC romances in PoE. But there is no freaking way to explain this to person who starts word "romance" with capital letter...
Edvin Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I mean really, if u follow the thread and think of how many games have come out since the bg series, and so far really really only 2 or 3 games are being toted as examples of romance done right and i believe only 2 of them let u create ur own character. A few of the games that are being toted as examples had a set character where the developer was already a good bit in control in designing the backstory and motives of said character that it isnt like a blank slate such as ff7 or mass effect or even planescape. The only 2 games im seeing as herald as examples for good examples of romance with a blank slate character is dao and bg2. 1) Baldurs Gate 2 2) Dragon Age: Origins 3) Neverwinter nights 1: Hordes of the underdark 4) Jade Empire 5) Arcanum: Of steamworks and magick obscura 6) Star wars the old republic And NWN2 OC... or have our minds blocked out the painful experience of the Elanee and Casavir romances? :::shudder::: I love you since your childhood, but I'll never tell you anything and if you have a lot of points, I sleep with you at the end of the game? No thank you, this is not a romance. This is a wonderful case of something that should never occur.
Lord Wafflebum Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I'm not even arguing for the typical modern rpg romances. Even having some pretty intense flirting between companions and/or companions and PC would make a certain amount of sense. It's something that is just going to happen when you're always with people and subject to intense stuff like combat. When I was in Iraq there were a lot of "romances" going on even though it was super against the rules. They tended to last, too, until they got home and realized the only ting they had in common was that they were both dealing with a kind of lonely and intense time. I was even guilty of breaking some lesser fraternization rules, but there was definitely a lot of sexual tension floating about. Not at least having that tension just kind of rings false for me. A good example of that is Samara in Mass Effect 2. Duty kept her from getting involved, but things were awkward and felt awkward if you attempted to go down that road with her. It's not that she didn't want to go down that road with Shep, but it simply was not practical or appropriate considering everything that was going on. I would just like to see those emotions reflected in my interactions with my companions, even if there isn't an actual Bioware-style romance subplot.
Stun Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) @Stun You wouldn't happen to have any links handy for Chris' anti-romance blogs would you? I would very much like to read his viewpoint on it. There are several. But here's one that I think serves as a decent warning to Promancers to be careful what they wish for. http://www.gameranx.com/features/id/10388/article/an-interview-with-chris-avellone-on-project-eternity/ A choice snippet...about what he would do if forced to write a romance in the Pillars of Eternity universe: So if I were to implement a romance subplot in Eternity - I wouldn’t. I’d examine interpersonal relationships from another angle and I wouldn’t confine it to love and romance. Maybe I’d explore it after a “loving” relationship crashed and burned, and one or both was killed in the aftermath enough for them to see if it had really been worth it spending the last few years of their physical existence chained to each other in a dance of human misery and/or a plateau of soul-killing compromise. Or maybe I’d explore a veteran’s love affair with his craft of murder and allowing souls to be freed to travel beyond their bleeding shell, or a Cipher’s obsession with plucking the emotions of deep-rooted souls to try and see what makes people attracted to each other beyond their baser instincts and discovers love... specifically, his love of manipulating others. You could build an entire dungeon and quest where he devotes himself to replicating facsimiles of love, reduce a Higher Love to a baser thing and using NPCs he encounters as puppets for his experimentations, turning something supposedly beautiful into something filthy, mechanical, but surrounded by blank-eyed soul-twisted drones echoing all the hollow Disney-like platitudes and fairy tale existence where everyone lives happily ever after.^I would love to see if the Noisy Promancers of this forum...you know....the ones with the mindset of "Dude! Any romance is better than no romances at all!" would still be happy if the romances they got in a PoE sequel ended up having such morbid, mad scientist-necromancy themes like the ones Avellone is describing in that passage. Edited January 7, 2015 by Stun 3
Lord Wafflebum Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Hahahahahahaha oh man that's awesome. Glossing over the fact that Chris might be a sociopath, it would be pretty awesome to see some of those kinds of "romances" in the game. It would be very unique to be sure. I wouldn't mind seeing a couple more normal ones in there tho on top of that, maybe a task he could delegate to someone who understands what feelings are. Edited January 7, 2015 by Lord Wafflebum 3
500MetricTonnes Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 That reminds me of an idea I had for a "romance" in some fantasy story. One common romance trope I loathe (almost as much as I loathe the "bickering love interests" trope) is "Mindlink Mates" where the two love interests have some sort of telepathic bond with one another. My idea would be showing how being privy to one another's thoughts is actually rather horrifying. Think about it - I'm sure all of us have experienced random, intrusive thoughts that are less than wholesome. Now imagine that every single thought you have can be heard by your lover. Every time you "check out" another woman, even for just an instant, she would know about it. Every time you thought ill of her, she would know about it. Every bizarre impulse, fetish, and stray musing would be laid bare. The sanctity and privacy of your thoughts would be completely stripped away. So eventually, these two people who were once lovers come to utterly despise one another. They realise that the only way they can be free of their bond is for the other to die, so they immediately start trying to kill each other. Now imagine they are both powerful mages, wreaking havoc in their battle. It'd be the ultimate fantasy version of War of the Roses. 5 "There is no greatness where simplicity, goodness and truth are absent." - Leo Tolstoy
Lord Wafflebum Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 That sounds terrifying. I don't even like to be in my head; I can't imagine it would be pleasant for anyone else. Based on Chris' interview response, I think it would probably be fine if I was mind-linked with him tho. I really like the idea of "dark" romances. Maybe we'll get lucky and see something close in the full release! 2
500MetricTonnes Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I personally consider the Revan/Bastila romance from KotOR to be the absolute low point of RPG romances, for the simple fact that it combines my two most hated romance tropes - mindlink mates and bickering love interests. And speaking of KotOR... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjXL3OayoQg Skip to 3:30 to see how love stories should end...WITH EVERYBODY DYING. Edited January 7, 2015 by 500MetricTonnes "There is no greatness where simplicity, goodness and truth are absent." - Leo Tolstoy
Edvin Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I personally consider the Revan/Bastila romance from KotOR to be the absolute low point of RPG romances, for the simple fact that it combines my two most hated romance tropes - mindlink mates and bickering love interests. Hey, Revan/Bastila romance from KotOR was not so bad. Although the Bastilla was cold hard bitch, some of her reactions were really funny. In addition: Edited January 7, 2015 by Edvin
Rompa Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Bad writing is bad writing, imo. Any npc interaction can be appalling, be it a romantic one or not. This is what makes or breaks an RPG game, not including or excluding romance as an item 3
TMZuk Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Fascinating that when ever I have one of my rare visits here, this debate is still going on. To chime in with my two cents once more: Not having "romance" or sexual tension, is as bad as when it is poorly implemented. It's as immersion breaking, as "unbelievable" and as odd as poor writing and poor dialogue always is. Why do I think that? Because it's part of life, always and everywhere. And ~especially~ in a close knit group. In a small group, be it the army, a group of resistance fighters, a group of anything, placed in a high tension, stressed situation, sexual tension and "romance" will happen. It's a fact of life. I dislike blank slate characters for that very reason. They are just observing everyone else experiencing emotions and having a story. Themselves, they are nobodies from nowhere. What is usually wrong with "romance" in crpgs, is that they are about winning. Do this and do that, and your character wins the great price and live happily ever after. I've said it before and I'll repeat it, the best romantic story I've come across in any crpg, ever, is Morrigan and The Warden in Dragon Age: Origins. Because, there was no happy ending ever after, no matter what the player did. They could break up on good terms or bad terms, but she would ~always~ put her personal ambition above her feelings for the Warden. Furthermore, it was seamlessly integrated in the story and was part of the plot. Only the stupid gift system was off the mark, but that was how romance was done in that game. I don't remember that the romance in MotB was especially bad. It was very bad in NWN OC. BG 2 was fun with a male character and utterly dreadful with a female character. PS:T was great. Again, because it was against all odds and doomed to failure. If Chris Avellone is so set against romance, he needs to read more stories with romance in them. Not necessarily happy ending romances, but anything well written. Read these: Samuel Shellabarger "Captain from Castille". Totally corny romance, extremely well written and presented. Margaret Mitchell "Gone with the Wind". There'd be no story without the romance, and a protagonist as unromantic as they come. Alexandre Dumas: "The Three Musketeers". The protagonist is a naive fool, deadly with a blade, an easy tool for a scheming woman. Use romance as part of the story and not as some sort of silly mini game. It is as simple as that. Edited January 8, 2015 by TMZuk 1
Mangonel Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 I agree with you TMZuk in that most good romances are written in as part of the story. The problem is with these types of games that are based around player choice its hard to do that. If the romance is integral you have to have completely different plot write ups for each possible romance. If you try to make the love interests interchangeable to the plot, you end up either watering down the plot so that they're not doing things contradictory to their character or you water down the LI making the romance plot completely forgettable. As for Morrigan she offers to perform the 'ritual' with you regardless of whether or not you're romancing her. Which goes back to what I was saying about watering down the plot. In that instance the choice that matters isn't whether or not you went after Morrigan as your LI but whether or not you want to survive using her ritual.
Namutree Posted January 8, 2015 Posted January 8, 2015 Fascinating that when ever I have one of my rare visits here, this debate is still going on. To chime in with my two cents once more: Not having "romance" or sexual tension, is as bad as when it is poorly implemented. It's as immersion breaking, as "unbelievable" and as odd as poor writing and poor dialogue always is. Why do I think that? Because it's part of life, always and everywhere. And ~especially~ in a close knit group. In a small group, be it the army, a group of resistance fighters, a group of anything, placed in a high tension, stressed situation, sexual tension and "romance" will happen. It's a fact of life. I dislike blank slate characters for that very reason. They are just observing everyone else experiencing emotions and having a story. Themselves, they are nobodies from nowhere. lolololololololololololololol Are you joking? I hope so... A high stress situation is not conducive to romance. I wonder what world you live in where people just get romantic when **** hits the fan. Bob: Jim! Them nazi's are firin' on our position! We need to find cover! Jim: BOB!!! I... love you! Let us embrace in passion. Bob: I'm not normally romantic, but according to TMZuk in high stress situations romance WILL happen. Jim and Bob were then gunned down by nazi's since people automatically fall in love in high stress situations. That why romance never occurs in a relaxed setting. That's why there's nothing more romantic than a war zone. That's why most romance stories are like the D-Day invasion. How romantic. Wanna acquire a spouse? Easy; get them alone and stress him/her out. Romance WILL happen. It's a fact! "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.
TMZuk Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) Fascinating that when ever I have one of my rare visits here, this debate is still going on. To chime in with my two cents once more: Not having "romance" or sexual tension, is as bad as when it is poorly implemented. It's as immersion breaking, as "unbelievable" and as odd as poor writing and poor dialogue always is. Why do I think that? Because it's part of life, always and everywhere. And ~especially~ in a close knit group. In a small group, be it the army, a group of resistance fighters, a group of anything, placed in a high tension, stressed situation, sexual tension and "romance" will happen. It's a fact of life. I dislike blank slate characters for that very reason. They are just observing everyone else experiencing emotions and having a story. Themselves, they are nobodies from nowhere. lolololololololololololololol Are you joking? I hope so... A high stress situation is not conducive to romance. I wonder what world you live in where people just get romantic when **** hits the fan. Bob: Jim! Them nazi's are firin' on our position! We need to find cover! Jim: BOB!!! I... love you! Let us embrace in passion. Bob: I'm not normally romantic, but according to TMZuk in high stress situations romance WILL happen. Jim and Bob were then gunned down by nazi's since people automatically fall in love in high stress situations. That why romance never occurs in a relaxed setting. That's why there's nothing more romantic than a war zone. That's why most romance stories are like the D-Day invasion. How romantic. Wanna acquire a spouse? Easy; get them alone and stress him/her out. Romance WILL happen. It's a fact! No, I am not joking. Nor am I replying with an incredibly immature lololol. And, unlike you, I know what I am talking about. First of all, Bob and Jim are both men. And not everyone is gay. Only about five percent or so. Secondly, and much more important, it doesn't happen when under fire. It happens afterwards, in between, when they survived and somebody else did not. When they escaped and somebody else did not. When they are on a high because they won. Or survived against all odds. Or got away, even if they should not have been able to. It happens when you are in a small group, fitted against the world. When it is "us" against the "rest". That is situations where close friendships are formed, where romance pops up and sexual tension is abundant. Here's something you may be aware off: Adrenaline is a drug. And especially so for young people. Danger is a rush and when people are in their twenties, they often as not seek it out deliberately. And if ~you~ have not experienced that rush, and the high that follows, with all that means, to bad for you! Edited January 9, 2015 by TMZuk 2
Darkpriest Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 romance should not = releasing arising sexual tension. Yes stressful situations and feeling of danger get some people together. sexual contact is one of natural stress relief methods and it was proven. That does not mean I need to have this in the game. If i want sexual contact without good "romance" I'll go out to a club or date someone. RPGs and books should show romance more in "love" tones than just "affection and sex". The first is hard to find, the latter is way too common and I do not need that.
Namutree Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) Secondly, and much more important, it doesn't happen when under fire. It happens afterwards, in between, when they survived and somebody else did not. When they escaped and somebody else did not. When they are on a high because they won. Or survived against all odds. Or got away, even if they should not have been able to. It happens when you are in a small group, fitted against the world. When it is "us" against the "rest". That is situations where close friendships are formed, where romance pops up and sexual tension is abundant. Here's something you may be aware off: Adrenaline is a drug. And especially so for young people. Danger is a rush and when people are in their twenties, they often as not seek it out deliberately. And if ~you~ have not experienced that rush, and the high that follows, with all that means, to bad for you! Oh, I know that rush; all too well. When I was dealing with a homicidal maniac bent on taking out my eyes (not making that up I swear) as a teen the last thing on my mind was romance. That anyone could fathom to even think about sex or romance under such circumstances is beyond my ability to believe. Edited January 9, 2015 by Namutree "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.
Edvin Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) Oh, I know that rush; all too well. When I was dealing with a homicidal maniac bent on taking out my eyes (not making that up I swear) as a teen the last thing on my mind was romance. That anyone could fathom to even think about sex or romance under such circumstances is beyond my ability to believe. You really don't understand anything what TMZuk said, or just trolling? If people are exposed to long term stress, looking for a way to vent the stress. There are many ways to do something like this: Alcohol, tobacco, coffee, drugs, sex etc. Sex is one of the most reliable ways to do it and If it's sex with someone you love, the effect is much greater. Moreover, If it is with the person you really love, sex may not even be necessary. Even small things (holding hands, hugging, kissing, sleeping in the same bed / tent) help a lot. Edited January 9, 2015 by Edvin 4
redneckdevil Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 I dont believe they are trolling, more like viewing it from the other angle. They are viewing it as "stress" being said is whats bringing people together and while they have given examples of stressful situations without any thought of romance, stress is also why alot of relationships ends because its to much for them and the desire of romance is replace with dread and stress. I think the other side is using stress not as the reason, but motivator to overcome obstacles which i coukd see the need to overcome obstacles and being with someone thru that could like they said bring the need of "romance" but then again it can so be attuned to be seen as a lustful moment which i have encountered or can be viewed as thats someone i can depend on, need to keep them. Stress by itself can either shut people down over a period of time or can make people motivated to see it as something to overcome. So no i dont think they are trolling, both sides are saying something on the 2 sides of a coin and are both correct. 3
Lord Wafflebum Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Agreed. It all comes down to context. When you break things down to absolutes of course not everything is going to fit. In abusive relationships you see the whole spectrum. I'd say it's especially uncommon for people to stay with their partners when they're actively trying to murder you. However, in high-stress environments when you're on the same team, working together to survive and flourish, you don't think a positive relationship will arise? And with that positive relationship those two people find themselves attracted to one another, some sort of romance wouldn't arise?
redneckdevil Posted January 10, 2015 Posted January 10, 2015 I'm not denying that flings or relationships happen in stressful situations , I will say that not ALL stressful situations over time will involve the want of flings or romances. And I think that's what it boils down to. Some people see that there is that sometimes it happens and see the need for it in every game or it's just badwrongefun and some people see that it doesn't happen all the time so why include it or it's just badwrongefun too. My opinion is once both sides accept that It can happen and that it can also not happen and be happy with a great game with or without "a well written" romance in it and not simply write it off because it does or doesn't have it in the game, the need for these threads won't be needed. A game doesn't have to have romance in it to be well written or a great game. A game can include romance in it and be still be a great game as long as it's optional. 1
charms Posted January 10, 2015 Posted January 10, 2015 Murder hobos don't really seem like romantic types to me.
Recommended Posts