What's the expected level cap in this game?

[TrueMenace]

Curious since you reach Dyrford in the Backer Beta at lv. 4, and dev's have said that is mid game, which is a bit worrisome to me. 

[Leferd]

The cap is set at level 12.

[Karkarov]

Your party in the backer beta is intentionally weaker than a normal party would be upon reaching Dyrford.  Of course you also level up crazy faster than a normal party too in the backer beta.

[Bryy]

Curious since you reach Dyrford in the Backer Beta at lv. 4, and dev's have said that is mid game, which is a bit worrisome to me. 

Why?

 

I've always been curious as to why people think low levels means a short game? 

[Bobby Null]

As mentioned the level cap is 12. Don't worry about this game being short, it is far from it. But much like the Infinity Engine games that inspired it, leveling in Pillars of Eternity is a little slower than some of the newer RPGs on the market. When you are leveling 6 party members and the choices upon leveling are numerous, the extra time between levels is actually a good thing IMHO. It also gives a stronger sense of achievement when a character does level, at least that is our goal.

[Hassat Hunter]

I wish more devs thought that way rather than just plunking *more* levels since obviously 250 is better than 150 (eeeeeh...), and then leveling becomes so meaningless.

[sibakruom]

Why?

 

I've always been curious as to why people think low levels means a short game? 

 

 

It's not the perceived length that's the problem, it's the low level themselves. In my experience with early levels in IE and NWN games, they were the most annoying, by far. Damage mitigation was done by attacks missing, but since everybody had low HP it made the fights swingy. And since everybody had only one attack per round and a low attack bonus, it made the fights longer as well. So yes, if you told me a D&Ds inspired game (or a NWN module) made you spend half its length in the early levels, I'd be worried as well.

NWN 1 and 2 were clearly aware of the problem, as both made you leave the tutorial dungeon around level 3-4. In BG1, the 6 character party alleviated the problem somewhat, but even then you'd reach level 4 no later than 1/3rd into the game, probably even earlier.

 

Nevertheless, all these points are moot since PoE uses its own system, which from what I can see attempts to correct this problem (higher Endurance buffer at level 1, no rounds), and we won't spend half the game in the early levels anyway.

Edited February 7, 2015 by sibakruom

[Ashen Rohk]

Wasn't max level in BG1 about level 8 or something, though?

 

I've had a mess around with the max level abilities and some of them are superbly powerful - craft your party right and you'll be unstoppable. The slow pace of levelling at the moment seems balanced to provide a sense of achievement but also making sure the game still provides a challenge.

[lolaldanee]

i think 12 levels is extremely low, what i like most in rpgs, as far as gameplay is concerned, is to customize my characters

with only 12 levels, and not even new talents at every new level, customization is horrifyingly low :/

[Hassat Hunter]

If the exact same "customisation" is done in 12 levels where others would use 4x the levels (usually 50), I don't see what's lost in doing so. Just that each level is 4x more important and powerful, which is... kind of neat after getting used to meaningless leveling.

[Ashen Rohk]

i think 12 levels is extremely low, what i like most in rpgs, as far as gameplay is concerned, is to customize my characters

with only 12 levels, and not even new talents at every new level, customization is horrifyingly low :/

 

If you level a lot faster, you're going to end up with all the abilities you'd ever want - the key is customisation, not skill gluttony. Choose upgrades carefully.

[LadyCrimson]

i think 12 levels is extremely low, what i like most in rpgs, as far as gameplay is concerned, is to customize my characters

with only 12 levels, and not even new talents at every new level, customization is horrifyingly low :/

This isn't Diablo or Skyrim. Some games it's appropriate/part of the game design for a lot of clvls, some games it's not. RPG doesn't = must have tons of clvls in order to have chr. customization.

 

I remember while playing BG1, I never felt like the levels allowed was "too low" at the time. The only reason I ever had a thought in that direction is when I wanted to multi-class - which of course equals less "power" for each class ability. Which is sensible and I didn't want that aspect changed. I just wanted a few more chr. levels then so you could get each a bit higher.

[Falkon Swiftblade]

my only issue with either too slow a level progression or too fast, is having to use the same skills OVER and over and over... I don't like spamming the same attack the whole game. But at the same time, if you have all the skills to use and not enough chances to use them, then it sucks since you spent 40 hours with like 6 skills, and only have like 8 hours to use 20. 

[Bryy]

 

Why?

 

I've always been curious as to why people think low levels means a short game? 

 

 

It's not the perceived length that's the problem, it's the low level themselves. In my experience with early levels in IE and NWN games, they were the most annoying, by far. Damage mitigation was done by attacks missing, but since everybody had low HP it made the fights swingy. And since everybody had only one attack per round and a low attack bonus, it made the fights longer as well. So yes, if you told me a D&Ds inspired game (or a NWN module) made you spend half its length in the early levels, I'd be worried as well.

Again, you are using your pre-conceived notion of "levels" to dictate your thoughts.

[sibakruom]

Again, you are using your pre-conceived notion of "levels" to dictate your thoughts.

 

Because that's a problem that's pretty much inherent in systems where one stat scales linearly with the character level while another doesn't: health versus damage, accuracy versus evasion, etc. These systems tend to have a level range where they work best, where all components function in harmony and are relevant. Outside of this range, they usually break down from their intended purpose: too random, too long, too easy, some stats become irrelevant, etc.

The DnDs video games I played had some form of this both at very early and late levels, with the middle levels being the sweet spot.

 

There are ways to compensate for that, though.

- The stats that don't scale with level usually scale with gear, so introduce a 'level with gear' mechanic. The solution used by Diablo et al and even NWN to some extent at high and epic levels (which I very much do not want, for the record).

- Do some serious number juggling to expend the good level range. Might be necessary to not make the scaling stats completely linear with level. Which is how BG2 did it with HP at higher level. And both BG and NWN did it somewhat at level 1 by giving you the max roll for HP, but that wasn't enough.

- Limit the number of scale/don't scale comparisons. Makes it easier to balance those that are left. Mages usually have something like that by default, with their 1d6 damage per level spells.

- Probably others I haven't thought of.

 

I haven't played PoE's Beta, so I can't really judge, but from what I can see from the wiki Obsidian went with a mix of option 2 and 3 - which incidentally tells us they're perfectly aware of the problems in such systems. Scaling stats get a fine boost at level 1 compared to their per-level boost (this had always been the biggest problem for levels 1 to 3 in DnDs-based games), and Accuracy versus Deflection are now both level dependent.

Still, as I understand it the Beta is made to test the system primarily in the mid-level range, where we're expected to spend most of the game. Getting more eyes on the early and late levels couldn't hurt.

[aeonsim]

One of the nice things about the IE games is when you gained a level is was a big change and made a significant difference allowing new tactics and abilities, further more by the time you gained the next level you had had plenty of time to full explore these abilities/spells and learned how to incorporate them into your tactics.

 

Thus each level was a major event that could drastically change your options something I find tends to be missing in games with faster levelling, as if your going to spread a 40 hour game out over 30+ levels each has be less impact full unless things are going to good like insane at the end. Here we'll probably be be spending a 40+ hour game over 12 levels so each level is going to be a major change.

[DarkWanderer]

I just hope that all abilities will be usefull - there were many games with high level cap and plenty of skills to choose from, but most of them were pretty useless - good balance of skills is the most important + the variation of skills (depending of which one you choose - there will be more tactical manoeuvres you could use). 

 

PS: Though a little higher level cap would be a good thing - i'm thinking lvl 20-25 ... well maybe in the sequel  

[lolaldanee]

If the exact same "customisation" is done in 12 levels where others would use 4x the levels (usually 50), I don't see what's lost in doing so. Just that each level is 4x more important and powerful, which is... kind of neat after getting used to meaningless leveling.

true, the problem is: this is not the case in PoE - it might be, if there were new talents at every level up, then 12 levels might be enough to fully customize a character, but like this, i feel it is lacking! especially in such a loooooooooooooong game as this one, and level 12 is something you will only see if you complete all the content in the game i guess, so for most people lvl 10 or 11 should be the end anyway

but i will judge the final game

Edited February 8, 2015 by lolaldanee

[Voss]

I just hope that all abilities will be usefull - there were many games with high level cap and plenty of skills to choose from, but most of them were pretty useless - good balance of skills is the most important + the variation of skills (depending of which one you choose - there will be more tactical manoeuvres you could use). 

This seems like an important concern.  Looking at some of the BB videos out there a disturbing amount of the talents (and even class abilities) look like rubbish, there to fill out a list but never to be taken. 

[Snoozer]

 

If the exact same "customisation" is done in 12 levels where others would use 4x the levels (usually 50), I don't see what's lost in doing so. Just that each level is 4x more important and powerful, which is... kind of neat after getting used to meaningless leveling.

 

true, the problem is: this is not the case in PoE - it might be, if there were new talents at every level up, then 12 levels might be enough to fully customize a character, but like this, i feel it is lacking! especially in such a loooooooooooooong game as this one, and level 12 is something you will only see if you complete all the content in the game i guess, so for most people lvl 10 or 11 should be the end anyway

but i will judge the final game

Keep words "I feel". It's a design choice. Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 had similar level caps, people complained about it just as much and it didn't affect the quality of the games. If you derive more pleasure from seeing an arbitrary number tick up faster, I've got a great stopwatch for you.

[archangel979]

 

Why?

 

I've always been curious as to why people think low levels means a short game?

 

 

It's not the perceived length that's the problem, it's the low level themselves. In my experience with early levels in IE and NWN games, they were the most annoying, by far. Damage mitigation was done by attacks missing, but since everybody had low HP it made the fights swingy. And since everybody had only one attack per round and a low attack bonus, it made the fights longer as well. So yes, if you told me a D&Ds inspired game (or a NWN module) made you spend half its length in the early levels, I'd be worried as well.

NWN 1 and 2 were clearly aware of the problem, as both made you leave the tutorial dungeon around level 3-4. In BG1, the 6 character party alleviated the problem somewhat, but even then you'd reach level 4 no later than 1/3rd into the game, probably even earlier.

 

Nevertheless, all these points are moot since PoE uses its own system, which from what I can see attempts to correct this problem (higher Endurance buffer at level 1, no rounds), and we won't spend half the game in the early levels anyway.

 

Annnnd that was on purpose. Low levels (1-4) are meant to be played in panic mode because that is exactly how your character feels before each combat. He/she is just lucky to have survived the last fight, the last dungeon or the last trap. They go no experience, no real skill or power. The go through life stumbling into things like fools and hope to live.

 

Then when you get to the sweet spot (5 to 12) you get more control over your fate, you have an idea how to fight well and what to generally expect, the challenge is in fighting something really new.

 

Then at high levels (13+) the game is changed yet again. What you considered challenging or dangerous was just a small obstacle. Now you are noticed by greater powers and you are pulled into life and death games that not only decide your fate but fate of everyone around you.

 

This is how D&D was designed and there is nothing wrong with it.

[Lephys]

Just once, why can't we have a game in which the level cap is 1,000, and you gain a level after each enemy dies? Also, I hope the highest tier of equipment is +700, and the loot you get from each subsequent encounter is +1 above what you previously had.

 

Then we wouldn't have such a short game.

[archangel979]

Just once, why can't we have a game in which the level cap is 1,000, and you gain a level after each enemy dies? Also, I hope the highest tier of equipment is +700, and the loot you get from each subsequent encounter is +1 above what you previously had.

 

Then we wouldn't have such a short game.

I am sure you can find MMOs that do this already. Or console action rpgs.

[Hassat Hunter]

Ah, this discussion reminds me of this genius vid;

[dffgmmj]

level 12 is too high,8 or 9 is enough.i always like bg1 that player has a very long road to grow into a good fighter,that kind of feeling.