Apologies to Obsidian

[Lephys]

I apologize for being incapable of producing a post that is under 5,000 words, and thereby causing much frustration. It's just how my brain is programmed, whether people believe that or not.

 

And yeah, I've gotten more heated than I needed to here and there, so... I'm sorry about that. 8P. I'll try to never do it again.

 

*insert 4,893 more words here*

[Shevek]

I hope OE takes the strong emotions voiced on these boards in stride. If anything, I hope they take it as a sort of compliment that their work elicits such passioned responses from folks. Many other works come and go with little to no reaction from an audience. This game has generated a wealth of empassioned reactions without even being released.

 

In any case, I hope moving forward that more of us can presume positive intentions both among ourselves and towards the developers.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Shevek

[Leferd]

 

 

 

Game release periods are usually my favorite time...when it's a new experience that "everyone" is sharing, helping others, etc.

Totally, the best. Helping others, sharing ... if Green Shirt Girl needs help crossing Alton Parkway or ordering sushi, I am totally available.

Ponders fine line as to whether ManifestedISO is a creepy misogynistic nerd or whether he's a smooth playa.

 

Leaning towards he got game. Lols.

[Stun]

Is Grognard a rude term?

That's a good question. Personally, I don't view it as one. I call myself a grognard. But we all know full well that rude or not, it is a Label, and many people dislike getting labeled, and the situation is only compounded when the one who's tossing that label around is doing it as an insult. Edited January 27, 2015 by Stun

[BAdler]

Most of the posters and threads are great, but I have been noticing that the tone of posts overall had become somewhat snarky. We love feedback (even critical feedback), but sometimes the feedback ends up going a bit too far.

 

While developers, in general, have pretty thick skin, nobody likes to be in an atmosphere where they feel that they (or others) are being attacked. I don't mean discussions about various features or assets, but outright rudeness at times when discussing opinions. Heck, just in the past couple of weeks I have seen threads where posters were calling developers incompetent and uncaring. I have seen posters at each other's throats quite often in the past. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, it isn't something that is going to encourage devs and posters to come to the board (or even take the criticism seriously).

 

In short, I would ask that you keep the feedback, bugs, and opinions coming, but just think before you post. Rule number one: don't be a jerk.

[Leferd]

I don't consider grognard to have negative connotations. To me it's a term for wargamers or those who are tactical combat enthusiasts. I'd like to consider myself one --though albeit at the JV level.

[Labadal]

Haha, thanks. The fun fact is that we're all volunteers. We don't get anything in return except the pleasure of having people whose posts we remove railing at us for being Nazis/communists/SJWs in private messages.

That's a lie. You get your Moderator name immortalized in the credits of their games. 

[Blarghagh]

Wait, I do? Last game release was before I was a mod, so I wasn't aware of that. That would actually be pretty awesome.

[gladestone]

How can any one diss the best dev team in history of pc gaming tsk tsk..Is all i got to say about that ( forest gump)

[Sanquiz]

Perdonenme por favor!!! plix.

[Uomoz]

Obs is pretty much one of the best game dev currently, and anyone arguing that doesn't like story rpgs

 

Call them bugsidian or whatever, still the end product have more soul than most games these days.

[Uomoz]

The sad thing is that people who are selling peace in this debate, are the same people who are hostile towards people like Stun and Me (people who don't agree with the changes made). A picture is being painted that we are hostile towards the people on the other side of the debate right of the bat, when we are just returning what we are given.

 

As for offending and being abusive towards the devs, I have seen no such thing from Stun or any of the regular posters that are Grognards as Josh called them...btw where was his apology for that? I have read a few of his opinions pieces towards us and they were not at all polite or pandering. He was being honest with his opinion, why should we be anything less?

 

You people are confusing blunt criticism for outright hostility... Either way there are people here from different cultures and not everyone has the same outlook on what is honest and what is rude.

 

What you consider polite, I consider as pandering. If you are willing to do it, I am not. As always they can take or ignore my criticism, but in the end I have always said what I thought was good for this game and for that I am not sorry.

 

Stop bringing in massive amount of people, express your goddamn opinion instead of making factions up your ass. 

This kind of posts are the very reason why this forum is laughable.

[ManifestedISO]

Page four fail. Error 404 Fail Found

[Malcador]

Heh, these forums are an 'unsafe' place for who ? BruceVC hasn't been run off, after all.

[Stun]

Stop bringing in massive amount of people, express your goddamn opinion instead of making factions up your ass. 

This kind of posts are the very reason why this forum is laughable.

Ok, if this isn't the case in point perfect example of what's being discussed on this thread, then I don't know what is.

 

It's almost like epic sarcasm, except it's not.

[rjshae]

Aww...

 

A group hug thread.

 

Aww...

 

 

Well, apart from everybody on my ignore list.

Edited January 27, 2015 by rjshae

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

In short, I would ask that you keep the feedback, bugs, and opinions coming, but just think before you post. Rule number one: don't be a jerk.

 

I'll will most certainly try my best.

 

"Don't be a jerk" is almost a standard forum rule nowadays. For instance, it's always readable on the sidebar over at Reddit, for instance, like this:

"Subreddit Rules

• Keep it friendly and focused; don't be a jerk.
• Abusive behavior and discrimination against others will not be tolerated."

Reddit also have, just like the Obsidian forums, and pretty much any decent internet forum, their own rules of the community.

In addition, reddiquette is an informal expression of the values of many redditors, as written by redditors themselves, like:

 

"Please do

• Remember the human. When you communicate online, all you see is a computer screen. When talking to someone you might want to ask yourself "Would I say it to the person's face?" or "Would I get jumped if I said this to a buddy?"

• Adhere to the same standards of behavior online that you follow in real life.

Please don't

 

• Be (intentionally) rude at all. By choosing not to be rude, you increase the overall civility of the community and make it better for all of us.

• Conduct personal attacks on other commenters. Ad hominem and other distracting attacks do not add anything to the conversation.

• Start a flame war. Just report and "walk away". If you really feel you have to confront them, leave a polite message with a quote or link to the rules, and no more.

• Insult others. Insults do not contribute to a rational discussion. Constructive Criticism, however, is appropriate and encouraged.

• Troll. Trolling does not contribute to the conversation.

 

If we at least tried to abide by this kind of sensible rules of decency, it'd be a good start. I know I will most certainly try do so, personally, anyways.

Sarex did raise the important point of sociocultural differences in regards to debating and bantering, so we need to be extra aware of our differences when it comes to how we express our ideas and feelings, and also how these may or may not be perceived.

 

There will always be things we feel strongly about, and sometimes you will come across people who have views and opinions which are even diametrically opposed to your own. Does this mean we can run roughshod over any holder of opinions contrary to our own? No. Do people who completely disagree with you automatically qualify as targets, soon in for some slandering or mockery? Once again, no. Still, is debating fun? Hell, yes!

 

So, we just need to stick to our points, be as constructive as possible, and at the same time, steer clear of our worst (vindictive) instincts when our views and opinions get questioned.

Edited January 27, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot

[Leferd]

One major caveat is that I would rather that these boards not be heavily moderated. I'm pretty ambivalent about the pretty women thread, but I run on the side of freedoms, and would rather not see closures of such threads. But the writing is on the wall in that we may start to see stronger moderation --especially with all this talk of expected new waves of posters. Understood that these are Obsidian's forums and their rules as enforced by Fio and crew.

 

But Indira's rule proposals --though coming from a good place, is still a bit constricting. There should be leeway for mild trolling and busting of chops when deserved.

 

I'd rather it not go too much in the way of the old Bio boards in terms of policing.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I see what you mean. As long as the thread pruning is done in accordance with the Obsidian forum rules, I don't see much of a problem. However, I know that there are redditors that won't even allow memes and emoticons, or even vids, etc, just because they are too much of slapping red herrings in people's faces, Monty Python-style, as it were, whereas I realldy do appreciate those kinds of posts - I have had heaps of lols here at the Obsidian forums from funny memes and such. So, a generous amount of freedom would be much appreciated, but also faster and more active thread trimming if something gets out of hand. Hopefully, we can get the best of both worlds, so that fires get put out quickly, while we get to enjoy entertaining and creative rebuttals in whatever form, images, videos or whatever.  

[HoonDing]

One major caveat is that I would rather that these boards not be heavily moderated. I'm pretty ambivalent about the pretty women thread, but I run on the side of freedoms, and would rather not see closures of such threads.

True. But in all fairness, a lot of uglies were being posted in the final pages of that thread. So closure was more than warranted.

[TheisEjsing]

 

While developers, in general, have pretty thick skin, nobody likes to be in an atmosphere where they feel that they (or others) are being attacked. I don't mean discussions about various features or assets, but outright rudeness at times when discussing opinions. Heck, just in the past couple of weeks I have seen threads where posters were calling developers incompetent and uncaring. I have seen posters at each other's throats quite often in the past. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, it isn't something that is going to encourage devs and posters to come to the board (or even take the criticism seriously).

 

In short, I would ask that you keep the feedback, bugs, and opinions coming, but just think before you post. Rule number one: don't be a jerk.

 

It's sad when developsers need to have thick skin and some of them don't like to engage with forum users. It's easy to forget sitting behind your screen, that developsers are not shielded by anonymity like we are. I bet most of the foul language and harsh remarks wouldn't occur in face-to-face interaction.

 

If people had to show their credentials and accomplishments before uttering their uncencored opinions on everything from mechanics and storytelling to marketing and marxism?? I bet the tone would be somewhat different. 

 

But since we don't have to do so, let's all reflect on the ideas brought forth in this thread.

Edited January 27, 2015 by TheisEjsing

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I see what you mean. As long as the thread pruning is done in accordance with the Obsidian forum rules, I don't see much of a problem. However, I know that there are redditors that won't even allow memes and emoticons, or even vids, etc, just because they are too much of slapping red herrings in people's faces, Monty Python-style, as it were, whereas I realldy do appreciate those kinds of posts - I have had heaps of lols here at the Obsidian forums from funny memes and such. So, a generous amount of freedom would be much appreciated, but also faster and more active thread trimming if something gets out of hand. Hopefully, we can get the best of both worlds, so that fires get put out quickly, while we get to enjoy entertaining and creative rebuttals in whatever form, images, videos or whatever.  

 

There's the problem. What you might find funny, others see as off topic and would want those posts removed. I often find if a thread goes off topic for a few posts, they usually come back on topic not long after. Sometimes an off topic discussion can alleviate a heated argument.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Your opinion. I like Internet drama just as much as anyone but a line is crossed if the general feeling among the Devs is that the forums have become too uncomfortable to their taste to engage with their fans --some reflections have to be made.

 

There's plenty of trolls here --and that's fine and actually pretty entertaining, but I've avoided posting in many good legitimate topics because I don't want to get drawn into a flame war --of which you specifically seem to be embroiled in quite often due to your particularly inflammatory posting style.

 

I actually agree with some of your sentiments but you need to take down the aggressiveness a notch, if you want some of the devs or other posters to be comfortable enough to chime in.

 

Your opinion.

 

Stun is probably one of the most levelled headed, informed and reasoned persons on this forum who takes the time to present his arguments in a lucid well thought out way, backing up his posts with a wealth of experience, knowledge, facts, and any other relevant information that's relevant to the topic.

 

I do find it Interesting that you admit you find the trolls entertaining. Perhaps instead of encouraging the trolls who are the ones who derail threads that it's better to encourage those who are actively engaged in discussion and debate.

[archangel979]

I only apologize for that one post I made where I called out the whole dev team. That was out of frustration after being quiet about lots of issues for months and waiting to see if things improve enough.

 

I am still not happy about progress made but I will be more civil about it in the future.

Edited January 27, 2015 by archangel979

[BruceVC]

 

Your opinion. I like Internet drama just as much as anyone but a line is crossed if the general feeling among the Devs is that the forums have become too uncomfortable to their taste to engage with their fans --some reflections have to be made.

 

There's plenty of trolls here --and that's fine and actually pretty entertaining, but I've avoided posting in many good legitimate topics because I don't want to get drawn into a flame war --of which you specifically seem to be embroiled in quite often due to your particularly inflammatory posting style.

 

I actually agree with some of your sentiments but you need to take down the aggressiveness a notch, if you want some of the devs or other posters to be comfortable enough to chime in.

 

Your opinion.

 

Stun is probably one of the most levelled headed, informed and reasoned persons on this forum who takes the time to present his arguments in a lucid well thought out way, backing up his posts with a wealth of experience, knowledge, facts, and any other relevant information that's relevant to the topic.

 

I do find it Interesting that you admit you find the trolls entertaining. Perhaps instead of encouraging the trolls who are the ones who derail threads that it's better to encourage those who are actively engaged in discussion and debate.

 

 

Yeah I like Stun, I can have a heated debate with him without it getting personal 

 

But Hiro the whole idea about people not wanting to apologize for anything is something worth considering, I really admire Indiras post. Huge kudos 

 

When was the last time you ever apologized for anything on these forums for example, food for thought ? Sometimes I think people think an apology or admitting you are wrong will be seen as a sign of weakness. But its not, its a sign of strength as it shows we are prepared to accept that we aren't and can't be perfect