Ukraine Discussion

[Zoraptor]

If there's one thing I've noticed from the youtube war footage of the recent years it's that either everyone fighting is terrible or the competent ones are too busy being competent to film themselves being competent (or bring along embedded 'proper' journalists), and the tendency is to be either immensely cautious and spray your AK over some cover one handed without a hope of hitting or be utterly incautious and stroll across roads and open fields as if you're going for a walk with some occasional random, seldom properly aimed shooting thrown in to liven things up.

 

I am reminded of something Orwell said in Homage to Catalonia, that the Spanish conscripts often seemed utterly incapable of even basic defensive measures like cover. Makes sense that those who survive for any length of time go rather to the other extreme.

 

(Inept, not inapt. Logically it should be inapt, but it's english and our language is nothing if not random.)

[Woldan]

Not sure about the pros not filming, I've seen US Marines with similar combat behavior and those are considered to be pretty good.

Actually, the only time I saw footage of soldiers carefully aiming their rifles, switching from cover to cover and using tactics like you'd expect from professionals was the French foreign legion fighting in Africa. I've always held a deep respect for those guys.

(Inept, not inapt. Logically it should be inapt, but it's english and our language is nothing if not random.)

Dammit, I knew there was something wrong with my sentence right when I typed it but couldn't quite put my finger on it. Edited February 10, 2015 by Woldan

[BruceVC]

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/09/europe/ukraine-conflict/index.html

 

Here is an updated article on the next steps around the Ukrainian crisis. In summary 

 

• The USA is  not going to send weapons to the Ukrainian government yet. Obama is still supporting Merkel with the diplomatic options 
• Merkel feels that the only viable solution is a diplomatic one, in other words neither side can win through military means
• There is another round of peace talks between Russia ( and the separatists ) and the Ukrainian government on Wednesday. Lets hope they find some common ground and can agree on a tangible cessation of hostilities 

[Malcador]

Eh for the most part when watching combat footage I recall people saying that it's very hard to know you've hit something and that most fire is suppressive of some sort. Fighting in a city makes things worse in terms of looking like you have a target on camera.

 

African militias fighting has yielded some awesome sights though, AK-74 firing over the head, guys wearing orange lifejackets as flak armour, etc.

[Zoraptor]

Seems that the rebels have closed off most of the pocket around Debaltsevo. Still (somewhat) disputed but looks like there's up to 5000 UA troops caught there.

[obyknven]

Seems that the rebels have closed off most of the pocket around Debaltsevo. Still (somewhat) disputed but looks like there's up to 5000 UA troops caught there.

fix 8000 -10 000.

 

Meanwhile mighty Ukrainian army begin counter-offensive for releasing of surrounded troops.

http://youtu.be/PAqn3WB7g-g

 

but result is predictable.

 

[obyknven]

Moar of Rebels. 

 

Initial stage of East-Ukrainian militia training.

http://youtu.be/OkGWcrbwD7s

 

Rebels can into modding. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GP-25

http://youtu.be/Ec32t0R5NbQ

[obyknven]

Ukrainian army hit chemical plant in Donetsk by something...

http://youtu.be/ZuQ5EPnSE_4

 

http://youtu.be/z39h3h9oWvk

 

Looks like Muricans sell some amount of MOAB to Junta.

 

Though this is can be a just good old Tochka-U.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTR-21_Tochka

[obyknven]

 

Wow.

 

It's old fetish of Europeans about Mongoloid hordes (aka Russians) from East. Russians really giggling about these erotic  fantasies (google Liberator meme) and  troll NATO by sending of Mongol troopers against them (it's not easy, they are quite rare) and by propaganda in Horde-style.

 

vid from Ukraine

http://youtu.be/bvT7dgeCAKI

 

Vote for United Eurasia!

 

 

Khan with us - victory is ours!

 

 

 

Stability in Capital - is stability in Horde! (election of Moscow mayor).

 

 

 

 

[Woldan]

Ukrainian army hit chemical plant in Donetsk by something...

http://youtu.be/ZuQ5EPnSE_4

 

The massive detonation is of course caused by the chemicals / ammunition / ammo propellants in the plant, but its still exactly how I imagine a small tactical nuke explosion looks like outside a test area.  6 kilometers away and it still bursts the windows. 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMswNtfnKNI

Edited February 11, 2015 by Woldan

[Hassat Hunter]

So I just randomly open the news to read the US will train the Ukranian Military.

 

What was it that was said again? Don't interfere with other countries intern policies? Guess that only counts for Russians, not American's eh.

 

NOT HYPOCRITE AT ALL!

[Elerond]

So I just randomly open the news to read the US will train the Ukranian Military.

 

What was it that was said again? Don't interfere with other countries intern policies? Guess that only counts for Russians, not American's eh.

 

NOT HYPOCRITE AT ALL!

 

Regardless on how smart giving such assistance maybe, giving assistance in forms of military training and weapons for independent country that ask such assistance is not interfering country's intern policies if giving those assistances aren't tied to some political purpose and even then it is most cases seen as typical international politic instead of interfering intern politics of country.

 

And I would say that taking part of another country is bit more than interfering their intern policies.

 

But anyway regardless of how we view these things, I agree that it is not necessary intelligent or good thing to offer weapons or military training for anybody tied in the conflict, but instead we should seeks more peaceful ways to de-escalate conflict and find long term peaceful solution that don't cause full scale civil war in Ukraine or/and start international war (cold/hybrid/traditional), as such war would lead nothing else than world wide disaster.

[Fighter]

So a year since when it no longer matters BBC decides it will check both sides of the story:

 

"I was shooting downwards at their feet," says a man we will call Sergei, who tells me he took up position in the Kiev Conservatory, a music academy on the south-west corner of the square."

 

"Of course, I could have hit them in the arm or anywhere. But I didn't shoot to kill."

 

"Under attack, the police retreated from their position near the front line in the square, falling back along the street on the north side of Hotel Ukraine.

Protesters then advanced towards the police, where they were shot by retreating security forces and snipers from surrounding buildings."

 

"His account is partially corroborated by other witnesses. That morning, Andriy Shevchenko, then an opposition MP and part of the Maidan movement, had received a phone call from the head of the riot police on the square."

 

"He calls me and says, 'Andriy, somebody is shooting at my guys.' And he said that the shooting was from the Conservatory."

 

"I kept getting calls from the police officer, who said: 'I have three people wounded, I have five people wounded, I have one person dead.' And at some point he says, 'I am pulling out.' And he says, 'Andriy I do not know what will be next.' But I clearly felt that something really bad was about to happen."

 

"Lawyers for the victims and sources in the general prosecutor's office have told the BBC that when it comes to investigating deaths that could not have been caused by the riot police, they have found their efforts blocked by the courts."

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31359021

[obyknven]

"Make love, not war" © PUTIN

With help of Russia ceasefire has been signed by Rebels and Junta. Though words of Ukrainians meant nothing as usual, breaking of this ceasefire  by Junta is just question of time.

[ShadySands]

East Ukraine Cease-fire Deal Reached

[Gromnir]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-cease-fire-hopes-exceed-expectations-1423777453

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/russian-car-sales-skid-lower-amid-economic-gloom-1423488610

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/03/world/europe/russia-details-plans-to-bolster-its-economy-but-experts-scoff.html?_r=0

 

 

ceasefire, even if it holds, is likely too little and too late to slow the growing economic crisis in russia. if were only russians that would suffer from economic woes, we wouldn't mind. oh well.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 12, 2015 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

Have any links that aren't walled?

[Gromnir]

Have any links that aren't walled?

do you need a subscription to read those? apologies, we were unaware.

 

we will look around, but am suspecting that type the following into google would suffice: russia financial crisis 2015.  probable get an avalanche o' material with that search.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

Yes, I hear that Russia is down to their last 376 billion!

 

Always a good laugh, seeing US press (and especially Uncle Rupes' Yellow Journalists) talking their enemies down, you'd think dealing with the 18 trillion dollar (and currently increasing at more than Russia's entire external debt annually) log in their own eye would garner rather more attention.

 

So a year since when it no longer matters BBC decides it will check both sides of the story:

 

http://www.bbc.com/n...gazine-31359021

It was all Yanukovich/ Putler's fault, any deviation from that is a conspiracy theory made by paid Russian shills who are something something Munich, something something USSR.

 

Listen and Believe!

 

Funny thing about that article is that there is very little actually new in it at all, the two interviews only highlight what was already known- stuff that has been repeatedly ignored in support of the 'brave democratic freedom fighters' narrative. No doubt most of the protesters believed that themselves; still, seeing all the pro Maidan people at the time contorting themselves in explanations of how so many police were killed (they're shooting themselves! Russian Spetsnaz! Aliens!) will always be a case study in cognitive dissonance.

[Gromnir]

at current rate of spending, and given that the russian economy were tuned to 100 dollar per barrel oil prices, that $376 billion lasts anywhere from 6 months to a year.  which complete ignores actual problems o' the crisis, but nice try.

 

talk 'bout unclear on the concept, but this nonsense is from guy who were trying to convince us that russian food sanctions were gonna hurt west more than russia, so we ain't surprised.  brazil and china is preventing that 40% increase in sugar prices?  on amusing side, folks in the kremlin were public complaining that porridge in the cafeteria had increased from 20 rubles last year at this time to 53.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 12, 2015 by Gromnir

[Hassat Hunter]

East Ukraine Cease-fire Deal Reached

It's not going to last... like the other half-dozen before it...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Have any links that aren't walled?

 

do you need a subscription to read those? apologies, we were unaware.

 

we will look around, but am suspecting that type the following into google would suffice: russia financial crisis 2015.  probable get an avalanche o' material with that search.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Have you tried pasting the url in archive.today?

[Malcador]

 

East Ukraine Cease-fire Deal Reached

It's not going to last... like the other half-dozen before it...

 

Apparently Russia sneaked 90 vehicles across the border just after it was reached. Well, so says Kiev - from their words I think Russia has about 40-50,000 troops in there now.

[Zoraptor]

at current rate of spending, and given that the russian economy were tuned to 100 dollar per barrel oil prices, that $376 billion lasts anywhere from 6 months to a year. [..] on amusing side, folks in the kremlin were public complaining that porridge in the cafeteria had increased from 20 rubles last year at this time to 53.

 

Lol. Even your yellow journalists have it lasting 18 months to two years, as does simple maths. Exempli, in this case actually, gratia. They even pull the "well actually it's only two years because they cannot convert some short term so will never convert it, yep, that's logic!" trick to get their two years, in true Yellow fashion. Generally the Russians have had the good sense not to defend their currency over much as that is what will eat through their reserves, and that is what is causing the price rises- not import bans on stuff Russia produces craploads (#1 producer, even) of themselves.

 

talk 'bout unclear on the concept, but this nonsense is from guy who were trying to convince us that russian food sanctions were gonna hurt west more than russia, so we ain't surprised.  brazil and china is preventing that 40% increase in sugar prices? 

Lol, sugar. I'm sure that high fructose corn syrup is an essential staple in some places as is sugar but you're actually far better off with as little of it as possible. Yes, I'm sure that ludicrously subsidised Sugar Beet sugar from Europe and the US is a major loss for Russia and not for the Euros/ US who are subsidising that inefficient garbage (cane >> beet) to the tune of millions.  Oh noes, the Russians miss out on crappy luxuries, how will a country where only about 10% of people can actually afford crappy luxuries anyway cope?

 

(and of course, roflcopters, we all know who is the largest sugar beet producer in the world, don't we? Next time anyone reads one of those "omg Russians will starve if they don't buy from US/ Europe!" garbage articles remember that, and that Russia produces about as much wheat as the US does too. Seriously, porridge and sugar, I couldn't have picked better examples for you if you were my sockpuppet.)

 

The oil price is doing by far the most damage. But that ain't coming from anything the west has done, nor anything Russia has done. It's Saudi knocking the spigots out to damage their enemies- including all those US and Canadian companies stampeded towards fracking while assuming oil would stay above their $100/ barrel break even point. At $50 a barrel those guys are haemorrhaging money way, way faster than Russia.

 

Meh, most westerners would curl up in a ball if someone took away their sugar for a day- but most of the world makes do perfectly well without much of it at all. Double meh, anything that could even theoretically kill off the ridiculous corporate welfare (in the US) or grossly inefficient agricultural butressing (in Euroland) of subsidies is to be applauded. Triple meh, we'll keep selling our stuff to the Russkies, just won't publicise it much. 

[ShadySands]

 

 

East Ukraine Cease-fire Deal Reached

It's not going to last... like the other half-dozen before it...

 

Apparently Russia sneaked 90 vehicles across the border just after it was reached. Well, so says Kiev - from their words I think Russia has about 40-50,000 troops in there now.

 

 

It says it begins Sunday so I guess they have until then to get any last hits in