Ukraine Discussion

[drunetovich]

I don't really care to prove anything, I'll just watch this performance for a while. It has some entomological interest.

[BruceVC]

I don't really care to prove anything, I'll just watch this performance for a while. It has some entomological interest.

 

Yeah I was just joking

 

But since I have joined this forum, 3 years ago, there has been ongoing debate about if " Oby is a real Russian ". Most people say he is a troll but I'm not convinced, he clearly can speak Russian but at times his posting style reveals an inconsistency between Russian and English. Its like he is trying to sound Russian by making intentional grammatical mistakes 

 

Anyway if you do have time I would like your opinion on what you think about how "real" Oby is. You would have to watch his posting style for a period of time and then comment 

[drunetovich]

Since I have joined this forum, 3 years ago, there has been ongoing debate about if " Oby is a real Russian ". Most people say he is a troll but I'm not convinced, he clearly can speak Russian but at times his posting style reveals an inconsistency between Russian and English. Its like he is trying to sound Russian by making intentional grammatical mistakes 

 

Anyway if you do have time I would like your opinion on what you think about how "real" Oby is. You would have to watch his posting style for a period of time and then comment 

 

 

He is going like this for 3 years? Astonishing. From what i see he is definitely russophobic, like batman that was afraid of bats and started dressing like one.

He is possibly from ex-soviet country like Estonia, Lithuania or Latvia, they are known to be shaking from soviet bogeyman for past 30 years.

Also he may be genuine Russian that was very unlucky in his life and started hating everything.

There is also possibility that this not a one person but is a shared account that is run by some influence agency and changes hands over time.

[obyknven]

 

He is going like this for 3 years? Astonishing. From what i see he is definitely russophobic, like batman that was afraid of bats and started dressing like one.

He is possibly from ex-soviet country like Estonia, Lithuania or Latvia, they are known to be shaking from soviet bogeyman for past 30 years.

Also he may be genuine Russian that was very unlucky in his life and started hating everything.

There is also possibility that this not a one person but is a shared account that is run by some influence agency and changes hands over time.

 

Or maybe you just infested be "liberal" (Russians must surrender to West and become a obedient slaves for WASP's) ideas. Though this is same thing as be a crypto-Ukrainian or crypto-Jew.

[obyknven]

anyway for Russian he/she known too much about childish Batman comics. For typical Russians he is just laughable Murican crossdresser, nobody waste time for read this.  Fail, you must try harder in next time.

[drunetovich]

Oh look his ass went off so hard that his chair got burned around the edges. Good times, good times indeed.

[Malcador]

Oby is funnier, though.

[BruceVC]

anyway for Russian he/she known too much about childish Batman comics. For typical Russians he is just laughable Murican crossdresser, nobody waste time for read this.  Fail, you must try harder in next time.

 

Oby where were you born? Was it Russia or Ukraine?

[obyknven]

Oh look his ass went off so hard that his chair got burned around the edges. Good times, good times indeed.

You constantly forgot follow a " ordinary Russian guy/girl" behavior pattern . So non-professional work i watch here.

 

P.S. Just interesting how much pay "other side"  for such work.  

[BruceVC]

Oby is funnier, though.

 

Well you know what they say   " small things amuse small minds "  

[obyknven]

 

anyway for Russian he/she known too much about childish Batman comics. For typical Russians he is just laughable Murican crossdresser, nobody waste time for read this.  Fail, you must try harder in next time.

 

Oby where were you born? Was it Russia or Ukraine?

 

In Soviet Union obviously  

[Malcador]

That certainly explains your posts whether it's your trolling or cheerleading. But I suppose I shouldn't respond, lest I get another warning from the moderators here for being 'aggressive', even if it's to a **** like you.

[BruceVC]

That certainly explains your posts whether it's your trolling or cheerleading. But I suppose I shouldn't respond, lest I get another warning from the moderators here for being 'aggressive', even if it's to a **** like you.

Chill Malc, I was just teasing you....hence the 

[213374U]

So let me get your logic straight, lets say you are correct and Yanukovich was going to get killed ( which I dispute ) Russia then decided to illegally annex Crimea and support eastern Ukraine militarily to break away from Ukraine? Is Ukraine part of Russia, the last time I checked it was a sovereign country and there is absolutely no legal precedent  that justifies  how Russia and has been interfering in the government of Ukraine

If you are going to use grandiloquent phrases such as "absolutely no legal precedent", at least get your facts straight.

 

The US have been more or less openly doing precisely that within their self-proclaimed "sphere of influence" for more than a century. Notable examples include Cuba, Nicaragua, Mexico and Puerto Rico. The last two involve land grabs, too. Russia didn't invent imperialism and neither did the US, for that matter.

 

So yeah... it's not exactly about legality. It's about what imperialist powers can get away with, and what people come to accept as the new status quo as a result of being bombarded with propaganda for long enough.

[drunetovich]

 

You constantly forgot follow a " ordinary Russian guy/girl" behavior pattern . So non-professional work i watch here.

 

Whatever you say clown, we should send some clowns of our own to study where you studied, they are not funny lately.

[BruceVC]

 

So let me get your logic straight, lets say you are correct and Yanukovich was going to get killed ( which I dispute ) Russia then decided to illegally annex Crimea and support eastern Ukraine militarily to break away from Ukraine? Is Ukraine part of Russia, the last time I checked it was a sovereign country and there is absolutely no legal precedent  that justifies  how Russia and has been interfering in the government of Ukraine

If you are going to use grandiloquent phrases such as "absolutely no legal precedent", at least get your facts straight.

 

The US have been more or less openly doing precisely that within their self-proclaimed "sphere of influence" for more than a century. Notable examples include Cuba, Nicaragua, Mexico and Puerto Rico. The last two involve land grabs, too. Russia didn't invent imperialism and neither did the US, for that matter.

 

So yeah... it's not exactly about legality. It's about what imperialist powers can get away with, and what people come to accept as the new status quo as a result of being bombarded with propaganda for long enough.

 

 

Sure, you right. The West has in the past been involved in similar activities. 60 years ago the USA did invade Cuba

 

But I am  more concerned with the last 20 years and how countries operate withing the boundaries of what the international community and the UN will accept. I'm not sure if you are saying because the USA did something in the past that justifies the illegal annexing of Crimea and the Russian support of the separatists which is the only reason that this conflict is still ongoing?

 

Or are you are just disputing my usage of the words " absolutely no legal precedent " ?  If that's case then you are right, I was wrong to suggest that .

[Woldan]

The amount of troll feeding in this thread is absolutely amazing, but not nearly as amazing as you taking him seriously. 

[Gorth]

Or are you are just disputing my usage of the words " absolutely no legal precedent " ?  If that's case then you are right, I was wrong to suggest that .

A good starting point would be to examine the "legality" of the nation state of Ukraine, the ways in which the borders between it and its neighbours were drawn etc.

 

(hint: they were established as rather insignificant administrative lines, at a time when ethnicity was irrelevant and independent Soviet republics were unimaginable)

 

If the lines had been drawn with the benefit of hindsight, a lot of bloodshed could probably have been avoided.

 

As for annexing territories and spheres of influence, Israels (never recognised) annexation of the Golan heights, the rather unsubtle western interference in Libyia, the forced change (and following anarchy) of regime in Iraq, the meddling in Serbia, the meddling (in the end, without any results) in the affairs of Georgia and where the minorities there were never consulted about which country they suddenly wanted to belong to... it's a long list. Nobody is entitled to wear a halo in the world of "realpolitik"

[Malcador]

If the lines had been drawn with the benefit of hindsight, a lot of bloodshed could probably have been avoided.

Like in a host of other places, it seems.

[BruceVC]

 

Or are you are just disputing my usage of the words " absolutely no legal precedent " ?  If that's case then you are right, I was wrong to suggest that .

A good starting point would be to examine the "legality" of the nation state of Ukraine, the ways in which the borders between it and its neighbours were drawn etc.

 

(hint: they were established as rather insignificant administrative lines, at a time when ethnicity was irrelevant and independent Soviet republics were unimaginable)

 

If the lines had been drawn with the benefit of hindsight, a lot of bloodshed could probably have been avoided.

 

As for annexing territories and spheres of influence, Israels (never recognised) annexation of the Golan heights, the rather unsubtle western interference in Libyia, the forced change (and following anarchy) of regime in Iraq, the meddling in Serbia, the meddling (in the end, without any results) in the affairs of Georgia and where the minorities there were never consulted about which country they suddenly wanted to belong to... it's a long list. Nobody is entitled to wear a halo in the world of "realpolitik"

 

 But there is no point really discussing the legality of Ukrainian borders because they exist and they are what they are, it reminds me of a perspective I often hear about why there is so much instability in Africa. People say  things like " but the Colonialists created these false borders  when they created various colonies and and forced tribes to live together...that's the reason Africa is such a violent continent...its the Colonialists fault " 

 

You will never recreate these borders and redefine what territory is part of country x or country y so why discuss something we can't change, also to blame this as a reason for violence is fallacious IMO as there are many countries that exist and thrive fine under there so called " Western -imposed " borders ? And this applies to Ukraine and Africa 

 

So in summary the UN and the international community enforces and understands exactly where the borders of almost all countries exist and this is irrefutable 

 

And then you mentioned some interesting examples as a comparison to how Russia has been involved in Ukraine. I don't think any of those are similar, for example Libya was a UNSC endorsed military mission and Serbia was a humanitarian mission  to prevent the Serbs from continuing to perpetuate genocide 

 

But the main point being in all those examples is  the West didn't literally annex parts of a foreign country ? This is not the first time Russia has done this..they did the same thing in Georgia 

[Gorth]

But there is no point really discussing the legality of Ukrainian borders because they exist and they are what they are

Since when is ignoring the cause of a problem going to help?

 

You will never recreate these borders and redefine what territory is part of country x or country y so why discuss something we can't change, also to blame this as a reason for violence is fallacious IMO as there are many countries that exist and thrive fine under there so called " Western -imposed " borders ? And this applies to Ukraine and Africa

Israel, the US, Serbia, Greece, Iran and Iraq Kuwait, India, Pakistan, Vietnam, China, Tibet and two score more countries would like to have words with you.

 

So in summary the UN and the international community enforces and understands exactly where the borders of almost all countries exist and this is irrefutable

The UN and international community understands perfectly well and enforces absolutely nothing unless its the enforcing arm of some economic and military powers extended arm, trying to give it a thin veneer of "legitimacy" (because selling it at home is easier then)

 

I don't think any of those are similar, for example Libya was a UNSC endorsed military mission and Serbia was a humanitarian mission

Oh my...

 

Bruce, I sometimes hope you *don't* wake up to the real world

 

(hint Libya was a chance to pitch in and try to be on the "winning" side in a tribal conflict and Serbia was real politik in action, trying to limit Russias sphere of influence in eastern Europe)

 

But the main point being in all those examples is  the West didn't literally annex parts of a foreign country ? This is not the first time Russia has done this..they did the same thing in Georgia

Sometimes you dont need to formally annex anything, especially not if installing local puppet governments is a lot more cost efficient and achieves the same result.

[BruceVC]

 

But there is no point really discussing the legality of Ukrainian borders because they exist and they are what they are

Since when is ignoring the cause of a problem going to help?

 

You will never recreate these borders and redefine what territory is part of country x or country y so why discuss something we can't change, also to blame this as a reason for violence is fallacious IMO as there are many countries that exist and thrive fine under there so called " Western -imposed " borders ? And this applies to Ukraine and Africa

Israel, the US, Serbia, Greece, Iran and Iraq Kuwait, India, Pakistan, Vietnam, China, Tibet and two score more countries would like to have words with you.

 

So in summary the UN and the international community enforces and understands exactly where the borders of almost all countries exist and this is irrefutable

The UN and international community understands perfectly well and enforces absolutely nothing unless its the enforcing arm of some economic and military powers extended arm, trying to give it a thin veneer of "legitimacy" (because selling it at home is easier then)

 

I don't think any of those are similar, for example Libya was a UNSC endorsed military mission and Serbia was a humanitarian mission

Oh my...

 

Bruce, I sometimes hope you *don't* wake up to the real world

 

(hint Libya was a chance to pitch in and try to be on the "winning" side in a tribal conflict and Serbia was real politik in action, trying to limit Russias sphere of influence in eastern Europe)

 

But the main point being in all those examples is  the West didn't literally annex parts of a foreign country ? This is not the first time Russia has done this..they did the same thing in Georgia

Sometimes you dont need to formally annex anything, especially not if installing local puppet governments is a lot more cost efficient and achieves the same result.

 

 

This is an interesting debate that I am glad you want to have, so let me go into more detail 

 

I didn't make the point around the borders being redesigned properly. In most cases the solution to conflicts is not " well can can just recreate the borders of country x ". This is rare and creates more problems than it may seem. For starters most citizens and governments like the borders that constitute there countries, despite some of these borders being imposed in the past. The Israelis have had endless problems around territory that they occupied from the attacking Arab forces during conflicts like the Six-Day War

 

Now most of the world understands this simple fact, you cannot implement peace if you think you can annex a foreign countries territory in order to achieve this peace. This is something that Putin has failed to grasp. As I have mentioned several times the Russian absorbing of Crimea will continue to be an controversial decision with economic consequences for Russia. But then it gets more serious, you have Putin  wanting to create a buffer zone from Russia  and NATO\EU influence  by getting Eastern Ukraine  to breakaway  from Ukraine. Once again the expectation is that Ukraine will be carved up even more..so the Ukrainians have already lost Crimea and now they must lose even more land. Its not going to be accepted by most of the International community and the West for obvious reasons. The response from the West  is not some kind of nitpicking or unreasonableness , this is a direct result of Putin's desire for Russian hegemony in the region. 

 

And then I base my views not on my personal opinion but by what has been stated and what has been actually occurred in various political and military hot-spots in the world. You say the West only intervened in Libya because of them wanting to pander to some tribe. That is not the official reason or the accepted justification for the bombing campaign against Gaddafi. The West received the  UNSC mandate because Gaddafi had surrounded the town on Misrata and was quite prepared to kill tens of thousands of people who wanted nothing more than political change, Gaddafi was a brutal dictator who had only ever enriched his own tribe and had never had a Democratic election once in the 40 years he ruled Libya 

 

I encourage you to read the history of the Siege of Misrata and how this was the direct cause of NATO intervention in Libya 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Misrata

 

People tend to overlook this and accuse NATO of wanting to control Libya's oil and other reasons. There are always extenuating factors that countries intervene in other countries affairs but these don't negate the primary reason and in the case of Libya it was to prevent the mass killings of thousands 

 

I can give similar valid reasons for other conflicts that the West has intervened in, like Serbia, that justifies there involvement but I think you should get my point

Edited March 25, 2015 by BruceVC

[obyknven]

I encourage you to read the history of the Siege of Donbass and how this was the direct cause of Russian intervention in Ukraine 

 

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Противостояние_в_Донецке_(2014-2015)

 

People tend to overlook this and accuse Russia of wanting to control Ukrainian salo and other reasons. There are always extenuating factors that countries intervene in other countries affairs but these don't negate the primary reason and in the case of Ukraine it was to prevent the mass killings of thousands 

 

I can give similar valid reasons for other conflicts that the Russia has intervened in, like Georgia, Transnistria, that justifies there involvement but I think you should get my point

BruceVC become a Russian supporter, what a shame!

[obyknven]

Canada to send troops to Ukraine !

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-to-send-troops-to-ukraine-in-non-combat-role-1.2321894

[BruceVC]

Canada to send troops to Ukraine !

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-to-send-troops-to-ukraine-in-non-combat-role-1.2321894

I have always admired Canada, they constantly seem to be on the right side of history