Ukraine Discussion

[Jackie_]

I dunno is it useful information. 

I used 2 live in Ukraine,and a lot of my relatives are here now.

and u know,guys it`s realy  scary when you call them and they do not answer the call 

What do you think about the situation in Ukraine? 

For its part, I can say that it is very forward when the Ukrainian army clear out the separatists

[obyknven]

 

 

The story goes that once there was this ancient goddess. Not that I mean to
say she really existed - there was just this legend, see. And the storyline
says the gods were mortal as well and carried their deaths around inside
them, just like ordinary folks. So when her time was up, this goddess had to
die too; and naturally enough, she didn`t fancy the idea. So then she
separated into her own death and the part of her that didn`t want to die.
See there, on the picture?` - Azadovsky jabbed his finger in the direction
of the bas-relief - `That dog there`s her death. And the dame in the fancy
headgear - that`s her. To cut it short - from here on in you just listen and
don`t interrupt, `cause I`m not too hot on this stuff myself - when they
split apart, this war immediately started between them, and neither of them
could stay on top for long. The final battle in the war took place right
above the Ostankino pond -that is, where we are right now, only not
underground, but way high up in the air. That`s why they reckon it`s a
sacred spot. For a long time no one could win the battle, but then the dog
began to overpower the goddess. Then the other gods got frightened for
themselves, so they interfered and made them make peace. It`s all written
down right here. This is like the text of a peace treaty witnessed in the
four comers of the earth by these bulls and ..

`Gryphons/ Tatarsky prompted him.
`Yeah. And the eye and the ear mean that everyone saw it and everyone
heard it. To cut it short, the treaty gave them both a drubbing. It took
away the goddess`s body and reduced her to a pure concept. She became gold -
not just the metal, though: in a metaphorical sense. You follow me?` `Not
too well.`
`Not surprising,` sighed Azadovsky. `Anyway, to cut it short, she
became the thing that all people desire, but not just a heap of gold, say,
that`s lying around somewhere, but all gold in general. Sort of like - the
idea.` `Now I`m with you.`
`And her death became this lame dog with five legs who had to sleep for
ever in this distant country in the north. You`ve probably guessed which
one. There he is on the right, see him? Got a leg instead of a prick.
Wouldn`t want to run into him in the back yard.`
`And what`s this dog called?` Tatarsky asked. `A good question. To tell
the truth, I don`t know. But why d`you ask?`
`I read something similar. In a collection of university articles.`
`What exactly?`
It`s a long story,` answered Tatarsky. `I don`t remember it all.` `What
was the article about, though? Our firm?` Tatarsky guessed his boss was
joking. `No,` he said, `about Russian swear words. It said swear words only
became obscenities under Christianity, but before that they had an entirely
different meaning and they signified incredibly ancient pagan gods. One of
these gods was the lame dog Pizdec with five legs. In the ancient
chronicles he was indicated by a large letter `P` with two commas. Tradition
says he sleeps somewhere among the snow, and while he sleeps, life goes
along more or less OK; but when he wakes up, he attacks. When that happens,
the land won`t yield crops, you get Yeltsin for president, and all that kind
of stuff. Of course, they didn`t actually know anything about Yeltsin, but
overall it`s pretty similar.`
`And who is it this Pizdec attacks in this article?` Azadovsky asked.
`Not anyone or anything special - just everything in general. That`s
probably why the other gods interfered. I asked what the dog was called
specially - I thought maybe it was some kind of transcultural archetype. So
what do they call the goddess?`

`They don`t call her anything,` broke in a voice behind them, and
Tatarsky swung round.
Farsuk Seiful-Farseikin was standing in the doorway. He was wearing a
long black cloak with a hood framing his gleaming golden mask, and Tatarsky
only recognised him from his voice.
`They don`t call her anything,` Seiful-Farseikin repeated, entering the
room. `Once a long time ago they used to call her Ishtar, but her name has
changed many times since then. You know the brand No Name, don`t you? And
the story`s the same with the lame dog. But you were right about all the
rest.`
...
Tatarsky adjusted the mask that had slipped from his face. `I see/` he
said. `So did it build the Tower of Babel?`
`No. Definitely not. We`re not a construction firm. We`re simply
servants of the great goddess. To use your terminology, we watch to make
sure that Pizdec doesn`t awaken and attack; you understood that part right.
I think you understand that here in Russia we bear a special responsibility.
The dog sleeps here.`
`But where exactly?`
`All around us,` replied Farseikin. `When they say he sleeps among the
snow, that`s a metaphor; but the fact that several times this century he has
almost awoken isn`t.`

 

 

Servants of Goddes build moar ziggurats, but all this looks so useless.

 

The five-legged death almost awaken. Your world is ended soon. 

[Chilloutman]

Apperently, Georgia wants to be part of EU - Putim must be going crazy now xD

[leninghola]

Apperently, Georgia wants to be part of EU - Putim must be going crazy now xD

 

A crazy Russian? Not possible.

[obyknven]

Allah with us - victory is ours!

http://youtu.be/eypYzOXAxjw

[Walsingham]

 

Apperently, Georgia wants to be part of EU - Putim must be going crazy now xD

 

A crazy Russian? Not possible.

 

 

Dude, you missed an opportunity to use the term 'Crazy Ivan', and get a Sean Connery reference.

[HoonDing]

In other news, Putin is in love.

 

[Walsingham]

In other news, Putin is in love.

 

 

He's just imagining all the ways he could kill her. He looks the same way at oby.

[Gorgon]

Apperently, Georgia wants to be part of EU - Putim must be going crazy now xD

The EU thought Turkey was too far away, although they probably meant culturally. Anyway doesn't Georgia hate Russia already and have been begging for NATO inclusion like forever. 

[Chilloutman]

 

Apperently, Georgia wants to be part of EU - Putim must be going crazy now xD

The EU thought Turkey was too far away, although they probably meant culturally. Anyway doesn't Georgia hate Russia already and have been begging for NATO inclusion like forever.

 

I am not sure about Georgia and Russia relationship but I also noticed that its really far from nearest EU country. And you are completely right about Turkey. And Endrogan doesnt helping it. Turkey is really dangerous player in Europe

[Shallow]

 

Apperently, Georgia wants to be part of EU - Putim must be going crazy now xD

The EU thought Turkey was too far away, although they probably meant culturally. Anyway doesn't Georgia hate Russia already and have been begging for NATO inclusion like forever. 

 

Georgia has indeed had extremely bitter relations with Russia, even more so after Russia crushed Georgias failed land grab attempt.

[Gorgon]

Isn't South Ossetia Russian now (or Russia recognises it as a soverign state rather) and was a breakaway province of Georgia. So who were the grabbers there ?

[Shallow]

Isn't South Ossetia Russian now (or Russia recognises it as a soverign state rather). So who were the grabbers there ?

A large portion of South Ossetia was de facto independent from Georgia following the Georgian civil war with them, during 2008 Georgia attempted to take over the entirety of South Ossetia, Russia and (to a much lesser extent) South Ossetia repelled the Georgians, in response to the conflict Russia went ahead and recognized Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Abkhazia was also a de facto independent state that Georgia claims before 2008.

[Walsingham]

In some ways Georgia and South Ossetia are the reason we're in the position we're in now.

 

The US gave Georgia to understand it was a valuable friend of the West and could count on support. Russia pushed, and the Obama administration was left looking bloody silly as their promises were shown to be bluff.

 

For the umpteenth time, I can only point out the poetic irony that Obama returned the Churchill bust to the British embassy, because Churchill describes how precisely these sort of woolly reassurances landed Britain in the First World War.

 

https://archive.org/details/worldcrisis00chur

 

To a great extent this discussion has been turned into a farce by the antics of the oby alt. But this is a serious business.

 

The Putin doctrine's intent is very clear. To subsume as much territory as possible into a new Russia, and to forge a neoorthodox Empire. It is the vanity project of a KGB throwback, funded by stolen money.

 

The point is that we have to decide if we are prepared to see Russia go in that direction. And if we are not then we cannot pretend that vague assurances of action are going to be enough to stop him.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Walsingham

[Malcador]

And here I was always reading things on how no one could decipher Putin. Now oby needs to post that photo of him as the Big E (in some ways, I guess he fits!)

[Zoraptor]

The US gave Georgia to understand it was a valuable friend of the West and could count on support. Russia pushed, and the Obama administration was left looking bloody silly as their promises were shown to be bluff.

 

El oh el. Even OSCE agreed that Georgia attacked first and disproportionately, and that there was no Russian build up beforehand- and HRW state unequivocally that Georgia ethnically cleansed around 200,000 ethnic Ossetians in the 90s civil war. The west has no obligation to help someone who starts a fight, nor to help ethnic cleansers even if they are their friends.

 

For the umpteenth time, I can only point out the poetic irony that Obama returned the Churchill bust to the British embassy, because Churchill describes how precisely these sort of woolly reassurances landed Britain in the First World War.

Georgian War of Wanton Aggression in South Ossetia was in August, 2008

 

Barack Obama, inaugurated January 20, 2009.

 

Obama, so bad he retroactively turned the Bush administration into a bunch of peaceniks!

[Gromnir]

the only good thing about this thread is that you can actual go back and re-read some o' the nonsense folks posted. the only folks who would be hurt by sanctions were the west? brazil and china would simple be new and more lucrative trade partners for russia?  oil export revenue dependence o' russia were being overblown. list goes on and on and on and onandonandonandonandonandon. add in the conspiracy stuff posted by some folks (you know who you are) and this thread is non-stop chuckles... but mostly in retrospect. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[213374U]

Now, shifting to what you CAN do with sanctions: wreck the Russian economy. Putin can build his fighter jets from cardboard in the future if he feels like trying to redraw the borders of European countries. You cannot overstate the importance of immediately sapping the economic power of a country which starts to annex parts of their neighbours in this fashion. Let us remember what the prelude to WW2 has taught us. Chauvinistic nationalism must be crushed utterly in it's infancy before the situation escalates.

 

If anything, the prelude to WWII is an example of foreign powers applying economic pressure on a country which did not not prevent war or serve to significantly hinder a command economy's ability to assemble a massive war machine. Conditions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles were so much harsher than anything that can be applied against Russia today, that they ensured that Germany would be doomed to poverty in Keynes' opinion, and unlike Russia's present state, they were imposed on an economy already exhausted after WWI.

 

Taking the lesson that chauvinistic nationalism must be crushed from the interbellum period doesn't really work because chauvinistic nationalism in the Third Reich was the heir of chauvinistic nationalism in the German Empire, and that had been crushed already 20 years before. So much so, that the Second Reich ceased to exist politically, though the economic infrastructure and resources of the country were left intact. WWII can only be understood as a continuation of WWI and that was the inevitable outcome of the incompatible ambitions of newly industrial empires and countries walking in lockstep towards war due to pre-existing alliances. Chauvinistic nationalism was a factor, but not the factor, I think.

 

What did work to destroy the German ability to sustain the war effort was carpet bombing Germany into the stone age. That does indeed qualify as "crushing", but I doubt it's what you're proposing for Russia. A case could be made that Britain and especially France which had, at the time, the most powerful army in the world, should have declared war on Germany as soon as they started violating the Treaty in 1935 and perhaps the war would have been over sooner and with less bloodshed, and from there draw a parallel with current events, but who knows.

 

On the other hand you have Iraq, whose military had effectively been emasculated by 2003 as a result of economic strangulation, and Cuba, which after the fall of the Soviet Union has basically been forced to autarky. Russia isn't Iraq or Cuba, though.

 

Heh, maybe in 100 years historians will regard WWIII as the inevitable result of concessions made to the Soviets at Yalta. History is funny like that.

Edited December 19, 2014 by 213374U

[Drowsy Emperor]

What utter garbage. Taking as much territory as possible? Neo-orthodox empire? 

 

Before we engage in loony conspiracy theories, how about some simple logic. Russian actions in Georgia,and Ukraine are a direct attempt to counter NATO expansion in its own back yard. That is easily proven by the way NATO/US has been courting these countries and egging them into a conflict with Russia, which you yourself remarked with Georgia. 

 

The ultimate risk in Ukraine and other nearby countries that the Russians are afraid of is the so called "rocket shield", supposedly against Iran and North Korea. The point of this system is to in fact render the Russian nuclear response obsolete by installing rockets that can provide first strike capability. These rockets would be able to hit Moscow within minutes, way before the Russians could respond. 

 

In this situation, the risk of full out war with Ukraine is nothing compared to the long term threat of letting the large neighbor slide under the influence of NATO, have NATO bases and ultimately nukes right next door. 

 

The situation is further complicated by Crimea, where the Russian black sea fleet is. If they did not take Crimea they would have eventually lost a strategically important port by being pushed out by the puppet government.

 

The same applies to eastern Ukraine, letting the puppet government stabilize and welcome NATO would mean letting the previous two things eventually come to pass.

 

It is thus obvious that these actions are in fact a desperate reaction to politically and militarily offensive moves the US has been making in the region and are in no way an attempt at "empire" building. 

[Gorgon]

 

The US gave Georgia to understand it was a valuable friend of the West and could count on support. Russia pushed, and the Obama administration was left looking bloody silly as their promises were shown to be bluff.

 

El oh el. Even OSCE agreed that Georgia attacked first and disproportionately, and that there was no Russian build up beforehand- and HRW state unequivocally that Georgia ethnically cleansed around 200,000 ethnic Ossetians in the 90s civil war. The west has no obligation to help someone who starts a fight, nor to help ethnic cleansers even if they are their friends.

 

For the umpteenth time, I can only point out the poetic irony that Obama returned the Churchill bust to the British embassy, because Churchill describes how precisely these sort of woolly reassurances landed Britain in the First World War.

Georgian War of Wanton Aggression in South Ossetia was in August, 2008

 

Barack Obama, inaugurated January 20, 2009.

 

Obama, so bad he retroactively turned the Bush administration into a bunch of peaceniks!

 

I was gonna say that. It happened under Bush who was under pressure not to get involved. All the military adventurism the US could muster having been sucked out of them in Iraq and Afghanistan. It also seems pretty clear that the Russian involvement was a cynical power play and not some sort of humanitarian rescue mission.

[pmp10]

WWII can only be understood as a continuation of WWI and that was the inevitable outcome of the incompatible ambitions of newly industrial empires and countries walking in lockstep towards war due to pre-existing alliances.

No it doesn't.

That's just a western European view of things and not always shared by other participants of the conflict.

[Woldan]

What did work to destroy the German ability to sustain the war effort was carpet bombing Germany into the stone age. That does indeed qualify as "crushing", but I doubt it's what you're proposing for Russia.

What destroyed Germany was the weak Airforce that allowed bombing the infra structure to pieces, not realizing the importance of radar and Allies gaining control over the oil fields, this rendered 1/3 of the mechanized troops useless crippling the supply chain.

[Gromnir]

 

What did work to destroy the German ability to sustain the war effort was carpet bombing Germany into the stone age. That does indeed qualify as "crushing", but I doubt it's what you're proposing for Russia.

What destroyed Germany was the weak Airforce that allowed bombing the infra structure to pieces, not realizing the importance of radar and Allies gaining control over the oil fields, this rendered 1/3 of the mechanized troops useless crippling the supply chain.

 

your conclusions is highly debatable. it is is an interesting if off-topic debate, however. german airpower were were actual very strong, relative speaking. unfortunately, the luftwaffe were built wrong as it had far too few long-range fighters and bombers of its own.  it had short-range fighters in abundance, but in spite o' the horrendous toll the luftwaffe were exacting on allied long-range bombing efforts, the allies were able to able to absorb such losses.

 

is the navy that is likely were the biggest weak point for Germany in ww2. there were little naval airpower, and naval losses, particularly the norwegian campaign, forced the battle o' britain to be fought almost completely in the air ... where again, the lack o' long range fighters and bombers proved problematic. in fact, while the battle o' britain is portrayed as a handful o' british (and polish and other expat pilots) fighting off the luftwaffe despite seeming insurmountable odds, the battle for britain were likely won earlier, at sea. the Germans simple didn't have the surface ships to make an invasion o' britain possible.

 

in any event, everybody gots theories. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorgon]

So were doing 'Why Germany lost the war'.  In no particular order :

 

 

 

Going into Russia while Britain was still in the fight.

 

No coordination between axis powers such as a combined attack of Germany and Japan on Russia. 

 

Hitler made a lot of bad decisions, thought he was a battlefield commander.

 

Failing to properly marshal the resources of conquered and home territiories. In Germany by killing such a large number of his own citizens, Jews and political dissidents, who could have contributed to the war effort and in conquered territories by comitting ideologically motivated atrocities turning potential allies into partisans. 

[HoonDing]

Japan was too afraid to attack Russia again after Zhukov whipped their arses at Khalkhin-Gol.