First Impressions (v364)

[Sarex]

"I don't know" was my answer.

 

No, this was your answer:

 

@Sarex: I don't know, it's a Backer Beta, a slice of the cake in a non-spoiler area, mid-game with little content. It is heavily taken out of context of the full and real game. Combat is more than just encounters between level 5-8.

 

You don't know, but you go on to justify it anyways. It doesn't matter, let's leave it at that.

[Osvir]

What am I trying to justify? o.O

"But then what was the point of all these changes to the combat then"

I don't know! I like the combat! What should I say??

[Lillycake]

We're in a beta test.  Constructive criticism is key in aiding the developers in making this game work and feel right.  Preferably with class and tact, but either way the truth is the truth and that's what they want.  Having people tell them "I like it.  It's fun." is appreciated in a socially obligatory aspect but ultimately not what they care to hear in this context.

Imagine a chef that's trying to make the next best thing and some starving homeless person starts eating the food and constantly acknowledges that "it's good".  That isn't doing anything for that poor chef's restaurant and he wasted his time listening to that obvious and predictable opinion.

Osvir, you are the starving homeless person of this forum.

[Starwars]

On the other hand, having a person say over and over again "this onion doesn't fit this dish, REMOVE IT REMOVE IT REMOVE IT REMOVE IT REMOVE IT" isn't particularly helpful either.

 

Present arguments and be done with it, or argue about it in a thread dedicated to that matter, one doesn't have to stink up every thread on the forum with the same thing. Constructive criticism is great, but let's be honest, a lot (not all!) of the discussion of "hot topics" on here isn't constructive, it's a rehashing of opinions endlessly in an attempt to get heard above the others.

[Osvir]

Haha, well, I have given my feedback on what I think could be improved upon, what I like and what I don't like about the gameplay, elements, UI, bug reports. I realize it's in need of optimization, but okay, I like where it is heading, the progression, the general game has taken since v333 and earlier. I am not saying "I like it as it is", I am saying "I like where it is headed". I suppose that's a more literal way of explaining myself.

EDIT: A good chef tastes the food often to see if more spices or ingredients are needed

Also, about constructive criticism and similar, I actually started reading on Wikipedia, this caught my attention: Conflict resolution:

"Often, committed group members attempt to resolve group conflicts by actively communicating information about their conflicting motives or ideologies to the rest of the group (e.g., intentions; reasons for holding certain beliefs), and by engaging in collective negotiation."

Edited November 30, 2014 by Osvir

[Sensuki]

Present arguments and be done with it

 

Give me a chance to form it, and I will.

 

I have to present the information "for Josh", otherwise he'll just ignore what I say. That requires a certain presentation style and thorough information.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Sensuki

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Having played more of the Beta, I hate the implementation of Engagement. AoO's fit turn-based well, but it seems wonky in real time combat.

[Gairnulf]

What am I trying to justify? o.O

 

"But then what was the point of all these changes to the combat then"

 

I don't know! I like the combat! What should I say??

Osvir, admitting the fact that we are operating with imperfect information, and admitting our limitations to process it is not equally easy for everyone to do It's so much easier to presume you operate in a vacuum and you know every outcome of every decision. Admitting you don't know also gives out a disposition for rational debate - why all that effort, when you can just repeat the same statements over and over, without ever trying to disprove them yourself, because they must be right if they are coming from you, right? Also, avoid emphasizing that what you claim is your opinion only - here we work with absolute truths which are valid for everyone.

 

I played through all Dyford Crossing/Cave/Dyford Ruins, and I have to say that engagement didn't make combat uninteresting for me. I hope this doesn't come as a shock to anyone I don't think I metagamed. I found myself scouting ahead, counting enemies, waiting out their patrol routes to get a jump on them alone, planning ambushes, etc. I liked this style of playing because it gives me the most information before I attack. Of course, this isn't the only possible approach to the problems my party faced, I could have played in other ways as well.

 

My conclusion from playing like that is that stealth is overpowered, and stealth working equally well for the whole party is unrealistic, and I'll try to notify the developers of how I felt about it.

 

I'm quite sure that the developers collect our experiences as they would from a focus-group, which means they count people who liked/disliked, did/didn't do something, they probably take notice of how much something is liked/disliked, but there is some kind of limit to that. I believe that past a certain point, there is no effect from repeating the same arguments, they already know a certain proportion of the betatesters don't like this or that and they don't like it this little or that much, so past this point, what we do isn't informing the developers of what we think about a feature. It's just a chance to "scratch our tongues" at something.

 

That's the only post I'll make about this, because I'm getting tired of the same arguments, which sadly often degenerate to personal insults infecting one thread after another and bloating it with the same content. Honestly, I don't come to the betatesting forums to tell the world how right I am. I come for information - to hear from the devs or to pass something to them. I try to put myself in their place, and I know there is a limit to how much I can affect their decisions, and to how much the whole community can. For those who don't know, the Crusades ended in the mid-late 15th century. It's too late.

 

Peace.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Gairnulf

[Hormalakh]

TO asnwer the question about engagement mechanics: I will speak for myself here: Shevek is wrong.

 

Engagement was something I was looking forward to when it was first described. IT seemed like a good mechanic and one that would solve a lot of problems with the mediocrity when it came to melee combat in the IE games. However, it is poorly implemented and does not solve the problems it was intended to solve in the first place, namely making melee characters have area control and solving the problem of kiting.

 

As such, and after 4 months of beta testing with the mechanic and continuous problems with the mechanic throughout this time - these problems include lack of feedback, improper application of the mechanic, and ultimately not actually addressing the problems (kiting/melee area control) there were inteded to solve - I believe that the developers have spent an inordinate amount of time to implement a mechanic which is too complex and finnicky. At this juncture, it is prudent for them to look to other solutions - simpler ones that might not be "cool" but solve the problems they were trying to solve in the first place.

 

I will write out a longer and more detailed discussion in the near future. Sensuki is also writing his own piece. It is my hope that more players become aware of the real issue at hand with engagement, its implications, and join me in asking Obsidian to look to other solutions.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Hormalakh

[Hormalakh]

I will also speak to the other aspects of this newest of the betas. Outside of combat and a few issues that will undoubtedly be ironed out in the near or far future, this has been the first beta that I've enjoyed playing. I have had no crashes, no memory slow downs, and some aspects of the game are starting to finally come together.

 

Outside of combat which still needs lots of tending, things are looking good.

[Hormalakh]

Is it not possible to make certain things out of 3d objects (like doors) and to put the area transition on top of that 3d object and tell unity to transition when all party members are close enough to that 3d object?

[Chilloutman]

I have to say that I quite like engagement mechanic it just needs some polishing

 

1) remove interupt for attack of oportuniy (or whatever its called) so enemy can move aout after taking hit

2) improve AI so they dont try to move out of engagement without good reason (aka dont stand in aoe, opportunity to finish of other character etc)

 

And one personal statement:

 

Sensuki i think you are doing great work helping OE improve PoE. But oh god I cant stand your attitude - I AM ONLY ONE KNOWING TRUTH. And insulting all who dont agree with you left and right. Please stop being omnipotent **** (as you call someone storyfag)

[Sensuki]

Sensuki i think you are doing great work helping OE improve PoE. But oh god I cant stand your attitude - I AM ONLY ONE KNOWING TRUTH. And insulting all who dont agree with you left and right. Please stop being omnipotent **** (as you call someone storyfag)

You're a storyfan and I'm a combatfan.

Here is the original edited post by a moderator. 

 

You will note that I used the alternate term on myself in the same sentence. I do not find those terms insulting or offensive, and I had not seen any evidence that using them on these boards is against the rules (although apparently they are now). If you want to be an SJW and take insult from those comments that's your choice, I couldn't care less.

 

For every person who feels the need to call me out by name on the forums, there are as many, or more that agree with my statements. And most of you people have only done so because you disagree with me on the Engagement topic. If you feel that calling me out personally and insulting me adds something valuable to the discussion - keep it up, because most of the time it's you people that feel the need to get personal rather than arguing the topic ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and I reserve the right to reply to you and call you out for it.

 

If you don't like what you're reading, use the ignore function.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Sensuki

[BlueLion]

Well said Sensuki. Although, I don't agree with you on all topics I do admire the time you take to provide logical and well thought out reasoning to your points. My only concern is that you are aiming for a mark too close to perfection and will be bitterly disappointed.

 

On a side note, I hate SJWs, people take offence far too easily these days.

[Sensuki]

The game's release is merely the beginning. There will still be probably a thousand bugs, and many unpolished features. Patches, the Expansion, and Mods will probably rectify a lot of that.

[BlueLion]

And then the real test of OE's commitment to the game will begin...

[Gairnulf]

I think Sensuki did a great job pointing out the problems with engagement and it cost him a lot of time and effort. If Obsidian didn't know about these problems (which I doubt) they certainly know now, and if they knew but thought they would go unnoticed, which I also doubt, they now have no choice but to either fix the AI to take engagement into account or scrap engagement altogether.

 

What I think is the case - Obsidian are well aware of the problems with AI and engagement, just didn't talk about them because 1) it's something they will go back to and do additional work on, i.e. it's an incomplete feature, as they have said themselves regarding AI and pathfinding; and 2) why direct the attention to a buggy system? In retrospect I think they actually should have managed the problem better - they should have put in big letters in the known issues list "we know there are problems with the AI and engagement, hold on until we fix them". I imagine this would have kept the atmosphere much better on the beta discussion forum.

 

My expectation is that Obsidian won't go back on the engagement mechanics, they'll try to improve the AI so it doesn't ignore engagement, and I hope they succeed in that within the timeframe and resources they have.

 

Anyway, I think further going on about these problems doesn't serve any purpose, and turning the discussion of a problem into a personal war is detrimental to everyone participating, including Sensuki. Regardless of whether or not they agree with you, people would take your arguments much easier if you present them objectively, saying nothing further than what needs to be said, no matter how tempting it may be to rub someone's nose.

 

My personal opinon on engagement - engagement is just a tool. If it's doing its job well I'd go with it, if it doesn't do it well, I'll point it out. I don't see a reason for making such a fuss over it.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Gairnulf

[Hormalakh]

It will be an end however... an end to Obsidian's reputation. Bugsidian will remain their epithet forever, unfortunately.

[Sensuki]

I think Sensuki did a great job pointing out the problems with engagement and it cost him a lot of time and effort. If Obsidian didn't know about these problems (which I doubt) they certainly know now, and if they knew but thought they would go unnoticed, which I also doubt, they now have no choice but to either fix the AI to take engagement into account or scrap engagement altogether.

 

Well I'll be making a proper thread about it soon clearly highlighting the bugs and exploits with video, but I will be angling for removal - doing test recordings now.

[Gairnulf]

And I hope all discussion of engagement can remain in that thread.

[Sensuki]

I regret even talking about it on the forums in the first place really. Should have just waited and made a proper thread before saying anything at all, but oh well.

[Chilloutman]

 

Sensuki i think you are doing great work helping OE improve PoE. But oh god I cant stand your attitude - I AM ONLY ONE KNOWING TRUTH. And insulting all who dont agree with you left and right. Please stop being omnipotent **** (as you call someone storyfag)

You're a storyfan and I'm a combatfan.

Here is the original edited post by a moderator. 

 

You will note that I used the alternate term on myself in the same sentence. I do not find those terms insulting or offensive, and I had not seen any evidence that using them on these boards is against the rules (although apparently they are now). If you want to be an SJW and take insult from those comments that's your choice, I couldn't care less.

 

For every person who feels the need to call me out by name on the forums, there are as many, or more that agree with my statements. And most of you people have only done so because you disagree with me on the Engagement topic. If you feel that calling me out personally and insulting me adds something valuable to the discussion - keep it up, because most of the time it's you people that feel the need to get personal rather than arguing the topic ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and I reserve the right to reply to you and call you out for it.

 

If you don't like what you're reading, use the ignore function.

 

 

I dont want to derail this topic - so my last comment on it and i will move on.

 

1) pointing out that your comments sounds arrogant and disrespectful to others doesnt make me SJW and I am quite opposite in fact

2) I dont understand what do you mean but calling your name

3) I am suprised that you take what I write as insult while when you act similiary to others you dont see it as problem -BUT i am sure it doesnt add anything to discussion as its not related to PoE at all

4) I am speaking only for myself, please dont generalise this

 

If you feel that my feeling about your posts is not correct feel free to correct me/PM me to not derail this discussion any futher

 

Peace

Edited December 1, 2014 by Chilloutman

[Seari]

On a side note, I hate SJWs, people take offence far too easily these days.

QFT. Grow some balls you spoiled whiny children.

[Sensuki]

SUP GUISE

 

[Cubiq]

Lol just tried that with a 2h mace.

Cool find sensuki.