Playing DA:I Cleared My Doubts About Engagement Mechanics In PoE

[Gairnulf]

Normally, I wouldn't comment on another game in PoE's forums, but since this is the backer beta discussion, where people have most likely already bought/backed PoE, I guess I'm not really promoting a competing game Which leads me to the question of whether or not DA:I is an RPG at all which, based on my experience with the game so far, I seriously doubt.

 

I'm about 10 hours into DA:I and I think its combat is pretty much what would hapen to PoE without the engagement system. By the time I line up my rouge behind an enemy, in order to get a flanking damage bonus, that enemy has preformed some animation and is either somewhere else, or turned in another direction. I've been cursing like a docker at this for the pas few hours. This had been avoided in the IE games by implementing cooldown timers which affected movement commands as well - once you've moved in and preformed some action you couldn't move out until a few seconds have passed. In PoE though, as well as in DA:I, issuing a move command means it's preformed immediately, cancelling actions, just as long as you're not knocked down, frozen, etc, in which case you have to wait for the effect to wear off.

 

And in case you're wondering if Parthian tactics or kiting is a thing in DA:I, that's basically how I closed a rift guarded by about twice the amount of enemies my party's level would allow, and this while playing on hard difficulty. Attract one Lesser shade (lvl 11) away from the group, kill it, attract the next, etc. Lesser horrors I had to kill two by two, because they can teleport next to me as soon as they see me but that was about the only thing that didn't go exactly to plan.

 

I wouldn't want enemies who can disengage at will without consequences in PoE. And I don't even want to start about what kind of fad Bioware pulled off, lying to PC players that PC DA:I would be adapted for mouse and keyboard. It's the exact opposite and battles are barely playable due to controls, even before we get to their dumbed down mechanics. So, beware of Bioware.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Gairnulf

[Sensuki]

To be honest man that's a retarded assumption because you have no understanding of how the AI in Pillars of Eternity works. I have a mod that removes engagement, if you want to actually try PE without engagement then you can. Instead of making some ridiculous claim because you played Bioware's latest not-even-anything-like-the-infinity-engine game and enemies don't attack you because you're attacking them.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shevek]

To be honest man that's a retarded assumption because you have no understanding of how the AI in Pillars of Eternity works. I have a mod that removes engagement, if you want to actually try PE without engagement then you can. Instead of making some ridiculous claim because you played Bioware's latest not-even-anything-like-the-infinity-engine game and enemies don't attack you because you're attacking them.

So, you just called this guy retarded. You do realize these aren't the Codex forums, right?

[archangel979]

I actually hold a different opinion, from watching people play it live on streams movement during combat is only good thing about the game that is normally about mashing autoattack like some diablo game and rotating CC spell cooldowns. If you are also required to stand still while doing so, it would be so much worse.

[Cubiq]

I can only confirm that what Sensuki said is true. I played the mod and from what i've seen what Gairnulf describes doesn't actualy happen.

I think this is completely dependant on how the AI is programmed.

Currently it isn't so.

 

Also the kiting.

You can already do what you described in the PoE beta.

Pulling 1 by 1 and using disengagement hits to kill things.

Luckly on hard you pull more enemies.

[Sensuki]

Yeah it's all about how the AI targeting clauses work. The enemy in PE is simple and deterministic, they don't just randomly move around and they don't do it with engagement disabled. When it is disabled, it boils down to the two targeting clauses that I repeatedly explained in other threads - enemy that last attacked, and first closest enemy. 

If the game used the very nice Icewind Dale Heart of Winter targeting AI then it would be great (but not the very simple/crappy Baldur's Gate targeting system).

[Gairnulf]

To be honest man that's a retarded assumption because you have no understanding of how the AI in Pillars of Eternity works. 

Which is the assumption that's retarded exactly, and how do you know what I have an understanding of and what I don't have an understanding of? To be honest man, looking for a personal twist doesn't add much weight to your arguments, rather the contrary.

 

 

 

if you want to actually try PE without engagement then you can.

 Ok, what do I need to do to play it without engagement?

 

 

 

Instead of making some ridiculous claim because you played Bioware's latest not-even-anything-like-the-infinity-engine game and enemies don't attack you because you're attacking them.

Not sure I actually got the meaning of that. Yeah, the games are very different, but once you're in combat and kiting is possible, I don't think it would be much different which of the games kiting applies to. If I'm not locked to the enemy somehow, this results in kiting tactics being possible, in any game.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Gairnulf

[Sensuki]

Give me a sec (in a dota 2 game) and i'll pm you

[wanderon]

Just a side note to concur that the DAI Mouse/keyboard implementation totally sucks and makes combat in PoE BB look glorious.  

[Ink Blot]

I've seen a number of reports that the PC controls for DA:I are crap as well as the 'quests' being just MMO fetch/kill quests and boring as hell. I'm not impressed. Was thinking I'd pick up the game right away, but I think I'll wait until it's heavily discounted. I'm not a BioWare hater, but I think I'm at the point where I'm ready to move them to my 'C' list, unfortunately.

[Lephys]

I'm playing it on a PS4, and the controls are actually pretty good for a console game of this type.

 

I've only played it for about 2 and 1/2 hours now, and I'm playing as a Mage. I've had a few issues with things that, in the context of DA:I's AI, engagement would definitely handle. But, can't say that I've played long enough to decide that it's not handled by many other effects. I will say that I like that the standard attack of elemental staves actually produces effects (freeze, chill, etc.). And I've noticed at least a few pretty interesting abilities for Mages, such as the one that resets your cooldowns (or shaves X seconds off of them? Can't remember) and removes the mana cost of your next spell.

 

Anywho, it's definitely dependent upon other factors. I'm playing on Hard, and all of the Dragon Age games have leaned towards (if not way too far towards) difficulty increases boosting the crap out of the attrition-factor of combat. On Normal or Easy, it may be that simply CC spells and abilities are all that is needed for melee-ers to corral most of the enemies away from your squishies. On Hard and above, however, it may be that the ratio of CC to how long it actually takes to kill something is out-of-whack, so that could lead to the increased demand for something resembling engagement.

 

In PoE, it's very heavily dependent upon AI at the moment. If the AI isn't going to care one way or the other, then I don't see as much point in engagement. But, one would think you'd build your combat system, THEN ultimately build your finalized AI to take advantage of the whole combat system you've designed. It may be a technicality, but if PoE's engagement is largely dumb, at the moment, because of lacking AI, then I blame the AI, not the combat system that the AI happens to not yet be designed to take advantage of.

 

*shrug*. DA:I and PoE are definitely a bit different, so it's hard to say "This is what PoE would be like without engagement" when you point to DA:I's combat. They're similar, but not extremely so.

[Captain Shrek]

DAI is more of an action game than a cRPG in the vein of IE games or even DA:O. 

[Flow]

I just started it last night.

 

I'd have to play quite a bit at all difficulty levels to know for sure, but at this point it's hard for me to imagine any scenario in which DA:I combat is worth comparing to IE games or PoE. It's a DA game. You select targets and mash buttons. Sadly, it now comes with no mouse button mapping which is a fairly annoying bit of regression.

 

So, yup... it's a modern Bioware game. You don't play them for a tactical challenge.

[Lephys]

To both above:

 

To be fair, it IS real-time with pause, and it does feature a party of characters (max of 4 instead of 6) performing various abilities at different times. And I know cooldowns aren't exactly the same thing as Recovery time, but, functionally, they produce the same effect (a delay between ability usages).

 

That being said, there are many differences.

 

Also... it's not true that you just mash buttons, u_u. DA:I features a "hold to consistently attack" standard attack button.

[Nonek]

Is DA3 really that bad gameplay-wise? I admit I was expecting a poor game (given their recent track record only an idiot would not,) but I was expecting it to be poor because of their incoherent writing, childish humour, moronic characters, immature squeeing, and weak grasp of themes and narrative. Bioware games have usually been mechanically sound for all of their faults.

[Gairnulf]

Is DA3 really that bad gameplay-wise? I admit I was expecting a poor game (given their recent track record only an idiot would not,) but I was expecting it to be poor because of their incoherent writing, childish humour, moronic characters, immature squeeing, and weak grasp of themes and narrative. Bioware games have usually been mechanically sound for all of their faults.

It's bad if you have set your expectations for an RPG. If you don't mind an interactive movie with flashy effects, cheesy dialogue and a forced story, where you have a minor role in selecting which lines would characters say and which not (but the general course of events remains the same), that's basically what DA has turned into. Plus horrible controls if you are playing with mouse and keyboard. Honestly what keeps me going is the exploration and the curiosity about which way the minor turns of the story will go. And the beautiful sights of course. Producing your own items just to admire their different looks is also fun. The Character face creator is so detailed, I think with minor modifications it could be used by police forces for id-ing suspects. Speaking of which, I made a Vladimir Klitschko look-alike rogue.

 

I have a hunch, for now at least, it may be confirmed or disproved as I play, that it's pretty apparent how different parts of the team making the game were in different state of preparedness for making such a huge game, where very little is left to the player's imagination. The writers' team for example, I think was not prepared and delivered very mediocre story and unmemorable characters. Then again, based on what I've seen from them, and read about their work in past games, maybe they don't actually know better. On the other hand the monsters design, level design and art deserves admiration. Evidently, it's much easier to develop a craftsman's skill than find creative talent.

 

I suspect what they are planning to do in another couple of years is, increase the playable areas to encompass the whole continent, and then use it as the world setting for a DA MMO. If by that time they are still in business of course. Even if this happens, this setting is dead IMO, and MMOs are where fantasy settings go to die.

 

That being said, I'm aware of the differences between our game and DA:I, so no need to go into comparative analysis. This is why I am making a very narrow and specific comparison: look at what happens when enemies are not locked to you or you to them, and combat is fast, and it's "real" realtime.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Gairnulf

[Nonek]

Ah what a pity.

[Shevek]

 

Is DA3 really that bad gameplay-wise? I admit I was expecting a poor game (given their recent track record only an idiot would not,) but I was expecting it to be poor because of their incoherent writing, childish humour, moronic characters, immature squeeing, and weak grasp of themes and narrative. Bioware games have usually been mechanically sound for all of their faults.

It's bad if you have set your expectations for an RPG. If you don't mind an interactive movie with flashy effects, cheesy dialogue and a forced story, where you have a minor role in selecting which lines would characters say and which not (but the general course of events remains the same), that's basically what DA has turned into. Plus horrible controls if you are playing with mouse and keyboard.

 

This is to be expected. Bioware died a while ago. It was a slow death, to be sure, but a death all the same. The exact moment when they gasped their last breath is easy pinpoint.

 

[Flow]

Is DA3 really that bad gameplay-wise? I admit I was expecting a poor game (given their recent track record only an idiot would not,) but I was expecting it to be poor because of their incoherent writing, childish humour, moronic characters, immature squeeing, and weak grasp of themes and narrative. Bioware games have usually been mechanically sound for all of their faults.

 

Compared to? It's a DA game. I'd say combat is better than DA2, but not as good as DA:O. The biggest problem is the camera. First person is confusing, and the tactical camera doesn't zoom out far enough so you have to scroll around the battlefield just to see all the enemies you're engaging.

 

I'm not far enough along to comment on the story or the writing.

[Lephys]

Is DA3 really that bad gameplay-wise? I admit I was expecting a poor game (given their recent track record only an idiot would not,) but I was expecting it to be poor because of their incoherent writing, childish humour, moronic characters, immature squeeing, and weak grasp of themes and narrative. Bioware games have usually been mechanically sound for all of their faults.

I don't find it so. Then again, I've only played for a little under 3 hours. I can get back to you when I hit 15 hours or so, if you'd like.

 

Honestly, I think people have existing reasons to dislike Bioware, so they carry those over into every little minor complaint they have about it.

 

It seems pretty tactical to me, honestly. There are some pretty interesting abilities for Mages, at least, that I've seen. But, again, I haven't played it for very long. Maybe it noticeably sucks later on? *shrug*

[Gairnulf]

 

Is DA3 really that bad gameplay-wise? I admit I was expecting a poor game (given their recent track record only an idiot would not,) but I was expecting it to be poor because of their incoherent writing, childish humour, moronic characters, immature squeeing, and weak grasp of themes and narrative. Bioware games have usually been mechanically sound for all of their faults.

I don't find it so. Then again, I've only played for a little under 3 hours. I can get back to you when I hit 15 hours or so, if you'd like.

Of course, if you want to believe in it, you can believe in it and its story and setting will not seem all that plagiarized or bland, or unconvincing. If you are having fun with it, who cares what anyone thinks really? Life is too short to spend time worrying about people's opinions on the way you choose to have fun

[Nonek]

Thank you Lephys but i'm only mildly interested in the PC port, not at all in consoles i'm afraid. It would be interesting to learn how Lenala (spelling) glued her head back on, when I decapitated her after i'd corrupted the Sacred Ashes, which she apparently took umbrage about.

[Lephys]

Leliana? I can't recall for certain (as I was speeding through the Keep thing -- not knowing it was a website and not an in-game thing until last night when I sat down to play the game -- to get my world state accurate to my previous playthroughs), but I'm pretty sure if you load the correct world state, she's not alive.

 

And yeah, I can't really attest to the PC controls/specifics, but I would think the rest of the game, at least, is 99% similar on the PS4. Granted, I know it's hard to separate out something like a game's controls and still talk about gameplay despite that, but... I dunno. Like I said, if there's anything you're still curious about, I'd be glad to update you after I've played more of it.

 

@Gairnulf: I have no doubts as to the non-optimal quality of the story, etc. To put it simply, though, how good their writing/narrative-design is compared to how good it should be (what we would ideally like in an RPG, what we should get for the huge budget of the game, etc.) is on a different scale, for me, than the simple question "can I and do I enjoy playing through this game?"

 

I just cannot bash an entire game solely on the fact that a bunch of components are less than ideal. It's like eating at some place that everyone tells you has THE most delicious food ever, and, upon tasting your meal, realizing that it's just-plain tasty, and not anything super special. You STILL get a tasty meal. Your taste buds aren't having a party, but they're also not prompting you to vomit.

 

I mean, I enjoyed DA 2 enough to get through it once. I'll never, ever play through it again, ever. But I didn't feel the need to "walk out of the theater," so to speak, partway through it. And I enjoyed playing through the Mass Effect Trilogy, despite the oodles of things I'd change about it.

 

Thus far, I'm enjoying DA:I, but I could very well hate it in another 4 hours. But, so far, it feels a hell of a lot better than 2, which I made it through. So... *shrug*. Maybe I'm just dumb or crazy? But that's just how I involuntarily function. I can't hate something that isn't terrible, just because it fails to be spectacular.

 

On-topic, though, I am curious to see how the "tactical" party play pans out. Especially since I'm playing on hard. DA2 on Nightmare was stupid. So I bumped it down to Hard. Still pretty dumb. I just put it on Normal, eventually. ME3 on Insanity left little room for error in reacting to enemy movements and placement, but it wasn't stupid-diculous, I will say. DA 2 was just "everything has infinite health, AND like 5 insta-heal potions in its pocket, AND is immune to half your magic, you stupid Mage!", and there was absolutely no controlling anything in combat. I had to CC an enemy 70 times before it died, so "Oh, I'll hold these guys with my tank while this other person does this!" went straight out the window. So, hopefully this one won't be as bad. I've been able to control enemies a decent bit thus far, but I am but a lowly nublet at the moment, heh.

 

Playing a squishy Mage is already WAY more fun, though, and I don't even have things like Barrier, or the awesome-sounding-but-I-haven't-seen-it-yet Frost-Blink spell, etc. I've just had to run from things and use other people to immobilize it or cut it off at the pass. It may very well demand something akin to Engagement from PoE, but that may also just be due to HP values, hindrance durations, enemy numbers, etc. We shall see. 8P

Edited November 20, 2014 by Lephys

[Karkarov]

Yeah well DA:I combat is very fast paced if you don't pause a lot and on harder difficulties the enemies are heinously smart and brutal.  Like as in enemy mage sees your big ass two hand melee killer charging.... so they cast an ice trap mine centered on themselves (no friendly fire) so for your melee is nullified unless it wants to eat a freezing trap.  Also mobs are more than happy to drop aggro on your tank and go after your DPS   I am playing on nightmare and I will be honest, the people who complain that is it "too easy" have self inflicted problems.  Trust me on nightmare "easy" is not a word I would use to described DA:I combat.  Brutal with very little room for error is probably how I would describe DA:I on nightmare.

 

That said, yes, the default mouse and keyboard controls are bad.  Mostly only because they got rid of mouse steering.

 

Don't worry though Lephys, the people on this forum hate Bioware.  DA:I could be the best RPG ever made and most of them would still say it was crap.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Karkarov

[Lephys]

^ Is that lack of friendly-fire specific to the ice trap mine ability? 'Cause I toggled friendly fire on the second I started playing, (And lemme tell you, that chain-lightning ability that's like the first/quickest spell you get as a Mage is no joke if you don't pay attention to enemy placement and proximity. It's definitely not a simple matter of button-mashing with that.)

 

But yeah, it doesn't really bother me. I think it's irrationally exaggerated hatred, personally, but I get that there are oodles of people out constantly praising Bioware for being a deity or something. So, I think when you start saying "I dunno, I kinda like the gameplay," people can't pass up the perceived opportunity to try and give a "Bioware lover" a reality check. All I can say is, if anyone's waiting for me to "realize" how not 10/10 DA:I is and become stricken with disappointment, I believe that person is the on who's going to be disappointed, since I expect it to, best-case-scenario, be a 7/10, and maybe as low as a 5/10. So, if it is, then it will still just be meeting my expectations.

 

The biggest reason I picked it up is that there aren't a ton of other RPGs on PS4 at the moment. So it's not like I'm foregoing a sea of amazing RPGs and buying the sub-par one. I just want an RPG to enjoy on my PS4. Not a masterpiece.

 

That, and people act as though Biowares games cost more than other games, instead of the same exact $60. Yeah, if they were all "Oh, THIS one's gonna be AMAZING! So we're charging $100 instead of $60!", you better believe I wouldn't even bother with it. But, "Oh no, they spend OODLES of money for voice-acting and all these flashy special effects, and the story and such suffer in comparison!". Great. Then they have to sell that many more copies to make a profit. That's their problem, not mine. I don't need to do a hype-to-actual-quality analysis before I buy a game, just to make sure I never only moderately enjoy a game that was SUPPOSED to be phenomenal.

 

Same thing happened with Destiny. I enjoy Destiny with my friends, and I hope that they expand the crap out of it. But, I don't think it's nearly lived up to its hype. Doesn't mean I have to dislike it. Again, no matter how much they spent on making it, I still only paid $50 for it.

 

Let me put it this way... I've gotten FAR worse games, before, than DA:I or Destiny, for the same price, if not more.