Journalism and sexism in the games industry

[Meshugger]

 

In my personal experience, most women I know well prefer to try and look attractive. Most don't walk around in skimpy clothing(unfortunately) but they do spend some effort keeping in shape, taking care of hygine, and dressing themselves. I suppose some would say this is because of internalized misogyny, which is code for "acting in a way I find inappropriate".

Or you know, societal structures expect women to conform to certain standards of beauty and have socialized them into wanting to conform to those standards of beauty.

 

I know this thread is basically a circle-jerk, but come on, this is pretty basic stuff.

 

 

It is even broader than with one sex. Humans are social animals after all, so arguing for the abolishment of such with "you are beautiful just as you are"-arguments is just BS. Better learn what cards you have at the game of life and use them to the fullest for your own self-improvement instead. But these authoritarians hate that, because it creates individuals capable to their own critical thinking, and we can't have that, can we?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

In my personal experience, most women I know well prefer to try and look attractive. Most don't walk around in skimpy clothing(unfortunately) but they do spend some effort keeping in shape, taking care of hygine, and dressing themselves. I suppose some would say this is because of internalized misogyny, which is code for "acting in a way I find inappropriate".

 

Or you know, societal structures expect women to conform to certain standards of beauty and have socialized them into wanting to conform to those standards of beauty.

I know this thread is basically a circle-jerk, but come on, this is pretty basic stuff.

It is even broader than with one sex. Humans are social animals after all, so arguing for the abolishment of such with "you are beautiful just as you are"-arguments is just BS. Better learn what cards you have at the game of life and use them to the fullest for your own self-improvement instead. But these authoritarians hate that, because it creates individuals capable to their own critical thinking, and we can't have that, can we?

Eh, I find telling someone they have the standards they do "because society" is pretty insulting to the intelligence of the individual. It's the left-wing analogue of the conspiracy theories about lizard jew illuminati that every else is too stupid to believe in.

 

 

I think TN and kirottu touched on this yesterday but here is an update: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/11231320/Rosetta-mission-scientist-Dr-Matt-Taylor-cries-during-apology-over-offensive-shirt.html

I'm absolutely disgusted that a man wearing a shirt made for him by a female friend is attacked with such ferocity by these people.

 

Why the hell does it matter that a female made that shirt for him? He's just some guy trying to go about his life having fun and a bunch of random jerks attack him because they disapprove of his fashion sense, he fact that a chick made the shirt is completely irrelevant to the content of the shirt, if a jew had made nazi uniforms wearing them wouldn't be any less offensive to jews. I do believe in the right to be offended by anything, with that said though I also believe in the right to be offended by people being offended, it's time for people to come together and stop SJW culture from attempting to dominate all other cultures, well, that times long overdue, but better late than never. Someone should start a #randomspacedudeshouldbeabletowearwhatevershirthewantstoscrewyousjws hashtag.

 

I highly doubt that you really believe disapproving of the clothes someone wears is wrong though, I highly doubt most of you would be comfortable around KKK and nazi uniforms.

It isn't important of itself, but it is ironic that the defenders of women's rights are so willing to **** on a woman's art.

Edited November 14, 2014 by KaineParker

[Fighter]

Listening to this now and it's really interesting. I'd like to see some numbers but if that's true, it pretty much comes down to "a female player, when given the option, will most often play the most idealized, 'sexy' babe". Anyone have any sources for this? I would really love to see some hard data on what female players pick. Of course, people will just point out "internalized misogyny" or something but still.

 

 

The idea of that kind of research always fascinated me. And frankly since this is such a big deal these days it should have been done long ago. In fact any such gender issues analysis should start with that.

 

But I don't know where to look for the source, it's just something TB said.

 

Or you know, societal structures expect women to conform to certain standards of beauty and have socialized them into wanting to conform to those standards of beauty.

 

I know this thread is basically a circle-jerk, but come on, this is pretty basic stuff.

 

In other words you are saying women can't think for themselves.

 

And even if it was entirely true. That all of it is socialization. What then?

 

There will always be a beauty standard. And whether to conform or not is a personal choice.

[Shallow]

Or you know, societal structures expect women to conform to certain standards of beauty and have socialized them into wanting to conform to those standards of beauty.

 

I know this thread is basically a circle-jerk, but come on, this is pretty basic stuff.

So? Let's all be honest here, we're brainwashed from before we're born, partly by genetics, partly by what goes on around us, why should we make an effort to not feel that we look good just because it's all fake brainwashy stuff, everything is fake brainwashy stuff, including the idea that we must strive to end the fake brainwashy stuff.

[Blarghagh]

Or you know, societal structures expect women to conform to certain standards of beauty and have socialized them into wanting to conform to those standards of beauty.

 

Yes this is true, but is acting in accordance to society's ideals inherently misogynist? Is reaching those ideals in a power fantasy "internalized misogyny"? Also, is it misogynist for games to offer mostly sexy character options when the overwhelming majority of their female fanbase wants that option? Is it misogynist to not offer a less idealized version if it's economically pointless to do so because nobody or next to nobody will even use it? Also, male video game characters are overwhelmingly attractive - in fact, a common criticism is that many games have male characters that win the affections of many women as a power fantasy, showing that being attractive to women is a power fantasy for men. Is that internalized misandry, the fact that to be powerful means being able to attract women? Because supposedly that's the same thing, that being sexy is a internalized misogyny based power fantasy because it's only meant to attract men, that being attractive to men is to be powerful in this society? And with manorexia being an almost literal epidemic, is the perceived need to have an attractive body to be worthy of attention a solely feminist issue? Are video games responsible for pumping money into options that aren't viable because video games are somehow responsible for changing society? Is the assumption that female beauty is an ideal to attract men even true, considering the fact that women overwhelmingly answer criticism over make-up by men with "I'm wearing it to impress other women with my taste, not to attract men"? Is sexualisation inherently linked to objectification? Is it inherently linked to tight clothing (i.e. would it be better if western women wore Burkas)?

 

Side question: I am nervous even asking some of these things, even though as you have pointed out that this is an echo chamber or at least a safe space to say it, simply because of how unacceptable it is to the modern internet crowd (twitter, tumblr, reddit) to even ask these questions. Do you think that's caused by a healthy attitude regarding women, sex and beauty standards?

 

I mean, okay, if you think this thread is a huge circle jerk, come debate these things with us and prove us wrong. I'd love to see you add more than accusing this of being an echo-chamber and then going off to leave it that way. I mean, after every post I sorta see you saluting, saying "my job here is done" and flying off into the sunset.

[Barothmuk]

It is even broader than with one sex. Humans are social animals after all, so arguing for the abolishment of such with "you are beautiful just as you are"-arguments is just BS. Better learn what cards you have at the game of life and use them to the fullest for your own self-improvement instead.

Better yet, realise the hand you have been given is colossally uneven, exploitive and reliant on your subjugation and thus instead of conforming to it, realise it is in your better interests to abolish it.

 

But these authoritarians hate that, because it creates individuals capable to their own critical thinking, and we can't have that, can we?

I don't know whether I should consider hilarious or scary that questioning the status quo is considered the position lacking in critical thinking.

Eh, I find telling someone they have the standards they do "because society" is pretty insulting to the intelligence of the individual.

Are you under the impression that women all coincidently started shaving their armpits in the 20's and their legs in the 40's with absolutely no social or cultural forces impacting this? What a coinkydink!

 

EDIT: Trueneutral's post will require actual effort. I'll respond later.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Nonek]

Questioning the status quo like GG is? In that case I agree GG has for the most part been the only side using critical thinking rather than just recycling tropes, playing the victim professionally and self righteously accusing everybody but themselves of being immoral and evil.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Nonek

[Fighter]

Here is another statistic that's actually well known. According to Bioware only 18% percent played female Shepard. And this is a character that's always been the posterchild example of inclusivity. If you listen to the game media personalities FemeShep is the Shepard... and yet.

 

Now, I'm not saying this is good. But is it so surprising that another company may look at that and say "this is a lot of work and money for little effect"?

[Malcador]

Ideologies tend to get corrupted in their online incarnations I suppose

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Here is another statistic that's actually well known. According to Bioware only 18% percent played female Shepard. And this is a character that's always been the posterchild example of inclusivity. If you listen to the game media personalities FemeShep is the Shepard... and yet.

 

Now, I'm not saying this is good. But is it so surprising that another company may look at that and say "this is a lot of work and money for little effect"?

It shouldn't be.

 

A study could be taken of female gamers to determine how many feel a female PC or avatar is a determining factor in them playing the game. At the least, it would give devs a feel on how to make a game more appealing to women, rather than relying on anecdotal evidence.

[Meshugger]

 

Better yet, realise the hand you have been given is colossally uneven, exploitive and reliant on your subjugation and thus instead of conforming to it, realise it is in your better interests to abolish it.

 

But these authoritarians hate that, because it creates individuals capable to their own critical thinking, and we can't have that, can we?

I don't know whether I should consider hilarious or scary that questioning the status quo is considered the position lacking in critical thinking.

 

I wasn't talking about arbitrary social systems in the game of life. I was talking about physical and mental traits, the only way to not play it is to die. You missed my other point as well, look at Nonek's post.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Questioning the status quo like GG is? In that case I agree GG has for the most part been the only side using critical thinking rather than just recycling tropes, playing the victim professionally and self righteously accusing everybody but themselves of being immoral and evil.

Gamergate is evil, didn't you get the notice that reads "To all of evil intent"?

[Nonek]

I'm afraid it may have got lost amongst the many others. Please do not question any half arsed criticism an SJF makes, please report to the nearest exorcist, why won't you die? Listen and Believe, leave Gamergate, we will, we will Doxx you, etcetera.

[Blarghagh]

EDIT: Trueneutral's post will require actual effort. I'll respond later.

 

Take your time, I won't be able to get back to internet until next thursday.

 

Here is another statistic that's actually well known. According to Bioware only 18% percent played female Shepard. And this is a character that's always been the posterchild example of inclusivity. If you listen to the game media personalities FemeShep is the Shepard... and yet.

 

Now, I'm not saying this is good. But is it so surprising that another company may look at that and say "this is a lot of work and money for little effect"?

 

Only 18%? I'd say a fifth is a significant segment consider we've well established that AAA Gaming is still very much male dominated. I don't know how accurate it is to declare all female players are playing women, and all male players are playing men. I've played Mass Effect with Femshep before because she's simply more interesting than another grizzled space marine. On the other hand, I also know a lot of women play manshep for "roleplaying purposes", in the same way almost all yaoi fanfiction is written by women.

Edited November 14, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'm afraid it may have got lost amongst the many others. Please do not question any half arsed criticism an SJF makes, please report to the nearest exorcist, why won't you die? Listen and Believe, leave Gamergate, we will, we will Doxx you, etcetera.

It had an offer of 100 gold for the death of Gawker's ward. I suppose the bounty has been raised recently though.

[Fighter]

Only 18%? I'd say a fifth is a significant segment consider we've well established that AAA Gaming is still very much male dominated. I don't know how accurate it is to declare all female players are playing women, and all male players are playing men. I've played Mass Effect with Femshep before because she's simply more interesting than another grizzled space marine. On the other hand, I also know a lot of women play manshep for "roleplaying purposes", in the same way almost all yaoi fanfiction is written by women.

 

I played FemShep too... (But really I just like to control).

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

In addition to being a former neo-Nazi and dead gay teenager, David Pakman also is know to harass women.

 

http://youtu.be/7kC7s7tfaEc

[Meshugger]

Topical: https://medium.com/@cainejw/objectivity-review-truth-deconstruction-and-postmodernism-a94c931e72cd

[Keyrock]

In addition to being a former neo-Nazi and dead gay teenager, David Pakman also is know to harass women.

 

http://youtu.be/7kC7s7tfaEc

Journalism - Reseach Optional

[aluminiumtrioxid]

No, the argument is that sexy women in games are created to be attractive to males, so attractive male characters are empowerment fantasies for men (which is fine) but attractive female characters are objectified and discriminatory. Get it? Not entirely untrue in all cases but most of the time it's bogus.

 

I thought the original argument (which I myself subscribe to) went more like "if you have a sexy male armored practically and a sexy female in a chainmail bikini, then yes, the female model probably exists to titillate the male fanbase while the male one is a classic empowerment fantasy".

 

I'm all for equal-opportunity objectification (say, game takes place in a climate where you'd get cooked alive in your fancy plate mail, so everybody's running around half-naked and sweaty), but being restricted to metal bikinis in an environment where they're clearly not practical (and, to add insult to injury, where male models get armor that wouldn't result in them being killed messily) is not what I'd call particularly empowering.

[Ganrich]

@Meshugger - thanks for that link. Interesting read.

[Blarghagh]

 

No, the argument is that sexy women in games are created to be attractive to males, so attractive male characters are empowerment fantasies for men (which is fine) but attractive female characters are objectified and discriminatory. Get it? Not entirely untrue in all cases but most of the time it's bogus.

 

I thought the original argument (which I myself subscribe to) went more like "if you have a sexy male armored practically and a sexy female in a chainmail bikini, then yes, the female model probably exists to titillate the male fanbase while the male one is a classic empowerment fantasy".

 

I'm all for equal-opportunity objectification (say, game takes place in a climate where you'd get cooked alive in your fancy plate mail, so everybody's running around half-naked and sweaty), but being restricted to metal bikinis in an environment where they're clearly not practical (and, to add insult to injury, where male models get armor that wouldn't result in them being killed messily) is not what I'd call particularly empowering.

 

 

That's a much more specific argument that does apply to some settings, yes. It's also one I completely agree with, chainmail bikinis are nonsense. (To be fair, since I've supplied a male oriented example for a lot of other things, I suppose this could somewhat equate to a barbarian walking around a frozen tundra in a loincloth? I've seen that once or twice, I guess. )

 

EDIT: Paraphrased of a tweet I saw: Feminists - "We have to stop the idea that women are more interested in fashion than science... LOOK AT THAT GUY'S SHIRT"

 

I laughed, but someone is going to point out "bwah that's a gross oversimplification" so I better point out that I know it was in jest.

Edited November 14, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[Drowsy Emperor]

Chainmail bikinis are a kitsch fantasy art staple, derivative from oriental motifs (like a Turkish harem) in classic art. There's a place for that too, what's silly is the judgmental attitude towards them. 

 

That would be like pretending several decades of Conan comics, Frazzetta's art, to mention but a few, never happened. No one seemed to care at the time, when it was an underground thing, but now its suddenly a hanging offense. Its ****ing fantasy for the XXth century, the way scenes from a harem in a classical painting were for a XIX century city gentleman who would go to a gallery to see them and would raise less of a fuss at exposed boobage than what the xhamster generation is raising now.

 

All it does is show what a potent mix a lacking education and ideology driven thinking are.

 

Let me drive my point across. Its fantasy, thus it doesn't have to conform to reality. Its obvious intent is to convey an atmosphere, not to offend somebody, thus while they can still choose to be offended, its really a malicious choice on their part.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Keyrock]

Topical: https://medium.com/@cainejw/objectivity-review-truth-deconstruction-and-postmodernism-a94c931e72cd

It's fitting that that piece addresses Jim Sterling, since he is a man shown on multiple occasions to have no ethical standards whatsoever.  Case in point his involvement in the unfair dismissal and blacklisting of Alistair Pinsof, and, of course, his infamous Kane and Lynch 2 "review".  "Review" is in quotes because it was crystal clear to anyone with the slightest bit of reading comprehension and knowledge of the situation that his "review" was a revenge hit piece for the firing of Jeff Gerstmann, which clearly breaks ethical journalistic standards and is a clear disservice to the consumer, whom he was supposed to be serving with said "review".

Edited November 14, 2014 by Keyrock

[Fighter]

There is no objectivity because no one can truly be objective. In other news there is no pure drinking water and no honest people so we might as well not ask for that either.