Saving the Wizard Class

[Stun]

I want to see a Wizard who, once a year, gets to cast a spell that simply saves the world. The rest of the year, the mage is in a coma and must be toted around on a little wagon pulled behind a mule. BALANCE! 8D!

You say this in jest, but in true Pen and paper D&D a classic wizard's lifestyle is not too far from this. First, there are spells like Wish and Gate that literally drain the wizard to the point where he's bed ridden for a week. Then there's the stuff that takes up the majority of his time, like studying ancient tomes, enchanting items, and creating Golems which will put him out of commission for weeks or months at a time. Then when he's free to come out of his tower and go adventuring, THAT's when the world gets to see his earth-shattering powers in action.

 

Obviously this kind of stuff can't be accurately duplicated in a video game because it would make playing a wizard really boring, but video game developers can do the next best thing. They can make a wizard intentionally weak and squishy early on; they can make him high maintenance, and they can limit his spell casting frequency. And if the player is willing to endure all that he will eventually be rewarded...because mages become the most powerful class later.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Stun

[Lephys]

I do say it in jest, for a cRPG. Things like Wish work splendidly in a PnP campaign, because there's SO much that's under the control of the DM, to shape the campaign around that ability actually being narratively significant.

 

Jesting aside (I only jest to hammer in points, btw... it's just my style, and I mean nothing personal by it), I do understand what you're saying, and I do understand how being powerful later quantitatively makes up for being squishy early on. However, I still feel that there's more to it than that. Spell frequency should be limited, but it's just one factor in overall class power. I personally do not care for the simplicity of that balance, as you could still have the Wizard be really powerful later on and weaker early on without solely relying on some kind of "let's punish you for how strong you'll be later and call it balance" idea.

 

Again, in a PnP setting, how "weak" you are isn't as prevalent, as there's a lot more to the game than that. But, in a cRPG (especially this one with a smaller budget than is ideal, and few skills, etc.), your general class strength, in any given portion of the game, is very important.

 

Basically, I just don't think it's a "duh" thing -- make Wizards wusses who later become demigods --. I just think it's an option amongst other more interesting (I feel) options to achieve a very similar goal.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

While I enjoy it, the demigod aspect is not precisely what I appreciate. I like how magic is...magical, and allows me to approach things from an clever angle that would have otherwise been insurmountable. I do believe that magic should be potent and capable, but I think the best way to balance that out is through verisimilitude that does not scale. In the original Deadlands RPG rules or with Fate RPG where everyone basically can be killed and maimed by everything--even devastatingly sometimes. Phenomenal cosmic power can still be stopped by an unsuspecting dagger or a lucky arrow.

[Hormalakh]

 

I want to see a Wizard who, once a year, gets to cast a spell that simply saves the world. The rest of the year, the mage is in a coma and must be toted around on a little wagon pulled behind a mule. BALANCE! 8D!

You say this in jest, but in true Pen and paper D&D a classic wizard's lifestyle is not too far from this. First, there are spells like Wish and Gate that literally drain the wizard to the point where he's bed ridden for a week. Then there's the stuff that takes up the majority of his time, like studying ancient tomes, enchanting items, and creating Golems which will put him out of commission for weeks or months at a time. Then when he's free to come out of his tower and go adventuring, THAT's when the world gets to see his earth-shattering powers in action.

 

Obviously this kind of stuff can't be accurately duplicated in a video game because it would make playing a wizard really boring, but video game developers can do the next best thing. They can make a wizard intentionally weak and squishy early on; they can make him high maintenance, and they can limit his spell casting frequency. And if the player is willing to endure all that he will eventually be rewarded...because mages become the most powerful class later.

 

In MOBAs, these are called "carry heroes." At first they're super weak and need other heroes to save their butts a lot, but once they get near the end-game, they carry their teams to victory because they're just so ovreepowered it's hilarious (and SUPER FUN to play).

 

There is a reason why many people like playing carries in competitive games like DoTA. Because while they're squishy at first and have to run to their little corners, when they gain levels, they're unstoppable and it's fun paying your dues and then ROFLSTOMPing everything in your path.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Hormalakh

[Sarex]

There is a reason why many people like playing carries in competitive games like DoTA. Because while they're squishy at first and have to run to their little corners, when they gain levels, they're unstoppable and it's fun paying your dues and then ROFLSTOMPing everything in your path.

 

It's never like that in mobas, carries do a lot of damage, but the amount of the dmg that they can translate to the enemy team is directly proportional to how good the carries front line is.

What that means is that if a bruiser gets to the carry he will stomp it in to the ground. Or to make it even more clear 1v1 the carry rarely has a chance against a bruiser.

 

For Sensuki:http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2oz30x/high_ranked_dota_2_player_gave_lol_a_shot_70/

Edited December 12, 2014 by Sarex

[Katarack21]

I think people are:

 

E.  Forgetting how much hard counters suck.  Wait, there are basiliks outside of Durlag's tower?  Looks like its a reload.  Hard counters make the fights either more luck based (you roll past the hard counter), or they take tactics out of the fight (what you do in the fight doesn't matter, only how you prepared for it and how you roll).

 

F.  Forgetting how much hard saves suck.  Some people complain about being oneshotted by enemies in the Beta, but Abu-dhalzim's Horrid Wilting could one-shot parties who found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Congratulations, it's reload and run away or hope for a save.

 

 

This. So much. I always HATED that mechanic in D&D, and I hated it more in BG. Instant-death-if-I'm-no-prescient, unless I'm lucky. How is that fun?! How is that "awesome"? It sucked. I made me nerd rage every time.

[Captain Shrek]

 

I think people are:

 

E.  Forgetting how much hard counters suck.  Wait, there are basiliks outside of Durlag's tower?  Looks like its a reload.  Hard counters make the fights either more luck based (you roll past the hard counter), or they take tactics out of the fight (what you do in the fight doesn't matter, only how you prepared for it and how you roll).

 

F.  Forgetting how much hard saves suck.  Some people complain about being oneshotted by enemies in the Beta, but Abu-dhalzim's Horrid Wilting could one-shot parties who found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Congratulations, it's reload and run away or hope for a save.

 

This. So much. I always HATED that mechanic in D&D, and I hated it more in BG. Instant-death-if-I'm-no-prescient, unless I'm lucky. How is that fun?! How is that "awesome"? It sucked. I made me nerd rage every time.

 

 

 

I have a simpler solution. Give the player a hint in the story. For even better stroytelling, link it to a skill. Thus he does not have to metagame to know it. This is thus not a problem of hard counters, but rather bad design. 

[archangel979]

 

I think people are:

 

E.  Forgetting how much hard counters suck.  Wait, there are basiliks outside of Durlag's tower?  Looks like its a reload.  Hard counters make the fights either more luck based (you roll past the hard counter), or they take tactics out of the fight (what you do in the fight doesn't matter, only how you prepared for it and how you roll).

 

F.  Forgetting how much hard saves suck.  Some people complain about being oneshotted by enemies in the Beta, but Abu-dhalzim's Horrid Wilting could one-shot parties who found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Congratulations, it's reload and run away or hope for a save.

This. So much. I always HATED that mechanic in D&D, and I hated it more in BG. Instant-death-if-I'm-no-prescient, unless I'm lucky. How is that fun?! How is that "awesome"? It sucked. I made me nerd rage every time.

 

No, it just meant you didn't scout like you should have. If you scout it you can come up with a plan to go around it or beat it. The scout can provide sight and you can Fireball or Skull Trap Basilisks easily. You can also send in summons first (like undead that are immune to petrification). You can also have an extra stone to flesh scroll on you (they are not expensive) and those scrolls are sold all over and are there for a reason.

 

Or you can cast Invisibility on the group and just skip it.

 

Or boost the saves of the guy with best save vs petrification and send him first and make sure you kill the basilisk with the whole group as fast as possible.

 

And BTW, protection from petrification scrolls dropped all the time from everyone. I always had extra in my character inventories.

 

Your complaint just sounds to me like you are a lazy player that does not want to admit his mistakes. The game gives you all the tools for all the challenges, it is not its fault if you fail to use them.

Edited December 12, 2014 by archangel979

[Dark_Ansem]

I wonder... would kits help to improve wizard experience, simlar to BG2EE?

[archangel979]

No need for kits when you can choose spells and talents. Kits were only needed for IE games because AD&D system was rigid and didn't allow for much customization.

Edited December 12, 2014 by archangel979

[Dark_Ansem]

No need for kits when you can choose spells and talents. Kits were only needed for IE games because AD&D system was rigid and didn't allow for much customization.

 

good point.

[Hormalakh]

 

There is a reason why many people like playing carries in competitive games like DoTA. Because while they're squishy at first and have to run to their little corners, when they gain levels, they're unstoppable and it's fun paying your dues and then ROFLSTOMPing everything in your path.

 

It's never like that in mobas, carries do a lot of damage, but the amount of the dmg that they can translate to the enemy team is directly proportional to how good the carries front line is.

What that means is that if a bruiser gets to the carry he will stomp it in to the ground. Or to make it even more clear 1v1 the carry rarely has a chance against a bruiser.

 

For Sensuki:http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2oz30x/high_ranked_dota_2_player_gave_lol_a_shot_70/

 

 

It is in Dota. LoL is different.

[Sarex]

It is in Dota. LoL is different.

 

Not from what I have seen in professional matches, at least on the point I made.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Sarex

[Trodat]

^ Well competitive games are different because teams are well coordinated and supports have item's like hex ( turns you into a harmless critter), or the enemy team has just the right group of 5 heroes so that your life will be miserable. Strong strength based heroes / bruisers or whatever won't do much harm to a farmed carry.

 

Actually you don't even need to be level 25 or super farmed to own the enemy team if you play a hero like Phantom Assassin, because of the very strong crit and evasion passive abilities.

 

Then again Phantom Assassin is not that good  in competitive because of the reasons I stated in my first paragraph, but hey it's called balance.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Trodat

[Hormalakh]

 

It is in Dota. LoL is different.

 

Not from what I have seen in professional matches, at least on the point I made.

 

You haven't been watching enough professional matches - and yes, pro mataches are a different beast than most "casual games." Generally, they are called the carry because in the late-game, they can "carry the team."

 

One very good example of a carry is Drow Ranger. At low-levels, she has an extremely slow attack-animation, is extremely squishy (low HP) and moves incredibly slowly (slow movement speed and terrible turn rate). She generally needs another hero to help her lane or just needs to get XP, gold and level quickly with good equipment. Once she gets her level 6, however (mid-game) and because she is an agility hero (attack speed, movement speed, and damage) her agility score shoots up (that's her ultimate ability, it's a huge boost to her agility). Suddenly everything changes, she can get gold incredibly fast, can move faster and has faster attack animations as well as high damage output. Then it starts to snowball with each adiditional level in her ultimate. By end game she can pretty much take out the entire other team if she isn't shut down immediately. Two-hit kills, etc etc.

 

I'm not super good, but I've played in higher rating games before where if the game goes on long enough, carries like Faceless Void are indomitable. In those games, the general strategy is to finsh the game before it hits 35-40 minutes, because it's generally game over if it goes that long (that's how long it generally takes a faceless void to become unstoppable).

 

There are many other carries like this in DoTA. Other scary ones include spectre, phantom lancer, anti-mage.

 

Someone like a faceless void, doesn't need a front-line at late-game. He has an ability where he can pretty much jump in the middle of a group, throw off an ability (time stop) which holds everyone in place and he just bashes everyone to death. His hits also have mini-stuns and he has evasion, so he pops his ability to stun many if not all of the other team (depending on how clumped they are), then he kills that group in like 5-10 seconds and then mops everyone else up.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Hormalakh

[Dark_Ansem]

On a secondary account, will wizards be able to customize the look of their Grimoire? I have been digging though the textures, and it's very well-detailed. I know it might be a minor thing, but...

 

"No, no, don't worry yerself about that..." She frowned. "Well, ye ken read spells well enough, but spells are no good to ye without a book to put them in..."

"Do you have one?"

Mebbeth glanced around the hut, and then she caught sight of the black-barbed picture frame I made. She picked it up carefully and studied it. "This'll do."
"That thing? It's just a frame."

"Ah, but so are ye, child..." Still holding the frame, she picked up one of the starched rags I got from Giscorl. With a yank, she pulled off the greenish starched surface film; it fluttered in the air like a wispy bit of cloth. "Whatever Giscorl uses in the wash, it works better than curing, stretchin' and stonin' does on a normal rag. Can't afford parchment, I can't..."

"Parchment...?"

She took the starchy film and pulled it over the black-barbed frame, latching the rag's edges onto the hooks around the frame until it looked like a small greenish-black painter's canvas. "It's missin' something..." 
"Well, it needs something painted on it."
She nodded. "Aye, or written on it..." Mebbeth took the tankard of ink I'd given her and set it down next to her. She dipped one of her fingernails into the tankard, then drew it out, mumbling to herself. Still mumbling to herself, Mebbeth began to scratch symbols onto the frame, one by one.

"All's done." Mebbeth stood, drying her ink-stained fingernail on her robe. She tilted her head, regarding the strange, framed page in front of her. "A page fer yer spell book, it is." She gestured towards me and I picked it up.

 

He tore the textbook I made with Mebbeth from my grasp and glared at it furiously. "What is this trash?! I'll tell you: dung! Dung, dung, dung! How do you even pluck the spells from these stained pages... have you been using this book as a bar towel, so soaked in spirits, glue and blood it is! Do you not care for your spell book?! How can I teach someone who does not respect the Art?!"

"It holds my spells. Its appearance is unimportant."

"Ridiculous! Preposterous! I most laughable notion, if I ever heard one! Whoever taught you the Art?"
"A midwife in Ragpicker's Square, Mebbeth."
"Then shamed be her name to be spreading such ineffable twaddle! And look at these spells! What is this addled crap that they have been spilling out, sullying magicks with hoodoo names and mumbo-jumbo wash! Trivial, tiny, flickering candle-like magicks with grandiose names!"
"So why does its appearance matter?"
"Your spell-book's appearance should reflect your respect for the power it holds. That trashy little book of yours is suitable for only the basest of words! True spells should be recorded in rare, precious inks, on sheets of vellum edged with gold leaf! Everything in its proper place, or not at all!" He began to hop about madly. "Proper place! Proper place!"

 

Accordingly to both Old Mebbeth and Quell, a Spellbook's appearance is important after all, a ruthless wizard cannot go around with a Hello Kitty spellbook, can he? and a good mage cannot simply go around casting protective spells on others while she herself carries a blackened Tome of Necromancy, can she?

[Stun]

Well, it can't be too good-looking. The game lets you use it as a physical weapon, after all. I imagine after slamming things like Oozes, zombies, insects etc. with it, it will start to look pretty nasty.

[Dark_Ansem]

good point. I'd still love to have some variety tho, since the detail is there :D

[Lephys]

Maybe you can coat it in Teflon, so all that stuff rinses right off! 8D

[morrow1nd]

The game itself is burst damage festial now.

 

I remember times when a brittle fkn npc wizard casting some enchanment spell or scroll, i was wetting my keyboard in fear! how can i stop him? What does he casting ? Is it Chaos, Fear or Confusion... OMG..half the party is gone xD

 

We wanted an IE game guys, please consider what kind of feeling we want  when playing the game. 

 

New players doesnt gonna play this game more than DA:I or some new sh.t.. All the guys here (*cough.. loyal customers..cough*) wanted to play in BG and Torment kind of game.

 

Bring the old magic system back with reduced duration timers and some kind of revamps. But dont make us play the game with this magic system. Its nothin more than a burst damage festival. No need for tactic or what so ever..

 

Save the wizard class!! 

 

All hail to the spell school system!!

Edited December 23, 2014 by morrow1nd

[Lephys]

^ So... what you're saying is, "tune the damage"?

[Nakia]

Wow!  Posted in red that should catch peoples' attention.  I have a different opinion maybe I should post in bright yellow.  Nah, but here is what I feel about the IE combat and spell casting from D&D.  I did not like the spell casting system and am glad OE has made some improvements to it.  Still needs work I know but that will come.  Combat in BG games?  I had a lot of trouble with.  I was new to playing CRPG games but had had no problem with BaK turn based play.  I finally found the best thing for me to do was turn off the AI scripts and manually control my party.  Even so sometimes I had things go wrong.

 

My wizard is doing fine, provides a lot of damage and that is the BB wizard I am talking about.   I do have to watch out for him because he does get targeted by enemies.  Don't blame them for that.

 

Summoning?  Summon what a familiar?  That has its downside.  Skeletons or other creatures to fight for you?  Not needed in my opinion.       My opinion is that OE is on the right track and just needs to tweak, fine tune and fix some bugs.

[BigBripa]

 

 

This game was backed so much because obsidian said itll be successor to infinitz games. And those games big point of interest for MANY people were powerful mages. Whatever the **** sawyer wants in his dream game can **** off since the game people backed was successor to infinity stuff.

LOL, really, I must have missed the requirement that there be completely overpowered god like mages when I signed up to back POE. My bad

Maybe you did. Obsidian gets points for clever use of vague language in a sales pitch in any case. From the Kickstarter:Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment..^That's suitably vague and open to all sorts of interpretation... enough to keep a semantics discussion alive 2+ years later. But there are 2 things here that are crystal clear and NOT disputable in the slightest: 1) Magic is purposely overpowered in all the IE games. It's what made combat in them intense and fun; 2) Obsidian name-dropped the IE games in their very mission statement on day 1.They didn't need to explicitly promise an overpowered magic system, because such a promise was clearly implied. And that is why we've got a few people here today calling them out for it - and why it's reasonable to do so, given that the magic system they have developed for PoE is so intentionally anti-IE spirit from the ground up.

I dont see anything in companions and exploration that implies any game mechanics will be carried over... Just that there will be interesting companions and lots of stuff to explore. I think they name dropped these games because they are immersive, party-based crpgs that PoE has been done in the spirit of. I'll preface the rest of this with a warning so that too many don't gank me here, I've played BG (not IWD) and liked it, it didn't blow my mind or anything. I dont see a reason why the devs should bend over backward to recreate a game that has already been made, with different lore. Lemmy Kilmister once said one of his biggest influences was Jimi Hendrix... That doesn't mean their songs need to sound exactly the same.

 

This isn't me slamming the pro-BG-style magic system, but I guess I just dont understand the specific complaint (that the system isn't enough like BG's). Presumably you already own BG, dont you want to play something a little different, or if not, why not just play BG again? I get that wizards need work but maybe they just won't be that big a deal in this game and other stuff will be. I dunno, I just dont get the rage. I feel like since Wizards are definitely not going that way, this argument works contrary to getting the PoE wizard class fixed.

[archangel979]

The game itself is burst damage festial now.

 

I remember times when a brittle fkn npc wizard casting some enchanment spell or scroll, i was wetting my keyboard in fear! how can i stop him? What does he casting ? Is it Chaos, Fear or Confusion... OMG..half the party is gone xD

 

We wanted an IE game guys, please consider what kind of feeling we want  when playing the game. 

 

New players doesnt gonna play this game more than DA:I or some new sh.t.. All the guys here (*cough.. loyal customers..cough*) wanted to play in BG and Torment kind of game.

 

Bring the old magic system back with reduced duration timers and some kind of revamps. But dont make us play the game with this magic system. Its nothin more than a burst damage festival. No need for tactic or what so ever..

 

Save the wizard class!! 

 

All hail to the spell school system!!

So good it requires quoting

 

I agree, spellcasting should be multitude of effects, not mostly damage or minor debuffs to stats. We want REAL fear, hold, slow, confusion and charm. We also want REAL petrification (to balance it make it slow target for X seconds and then target gets another save and if it fails it gets petrified, if it passes he is just slowed for the rest of the duration).

Edited December 24, 2014 by archangel979

[morrow1nd]

I think we should stop QQ'in about wizards now.

 

392 bb seems to be on the good way for caster classes.

 

I dont know whats happens to me after reading the sensible comments of Nakia...

Edited December 29, 2014 by morrow1nd