Journalism and sexism in the games industry

[Longknife]

 

 

Bryy: answer longknife's question

 

um, I don't really respond well to conspiracy theory tinfoil hat rants against my character.

 

But if you insist... the question was what am I doing to combat sexism in the industry? I'm kind of making a game with a female main character.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok I'll organize it nice and simple. The question is two-fold:

 

 

1) Why don't you do something about the propagation you oppose, AKA the very same propagation you want us to oppose and the propagation you imply no one is doing anything about? It seems very hypocritical to expect us to do so or to complain about it happening when you yourself do nothing about it. I also don't see how not condoning or supporting the "side" it comes from absolves you from responsibility, as we ALL don't condone it. That kind of logic is what leads to people watching a beating while thinking "someone should do something."

 

2) Why don't you do something about the bullying propagation your side is guilty of?

 

 

 

 

 

My intention is obvious: your post implies something horrible or disingenuous within the GamerGate movement in that while we claim to oppose that stuff, we do nothing to stop it. You say we should do something to stop it....like what?

 

  We can't. You cannot stop anonymous trolls doing things like saying "I'mma rape you." KotakuinAction just had a frontpage discussion the other day about stomping out a troll who was back to threaten Anita. They were protecting and helping Anita. But will it matter? Absolutely not, because the trolls are endless. They can catch three and three more can get through.

 

 

  In that sense my message was a sort of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" sort of message. No one has provided a WORKING solution to stop such propagation, and thus no one is allowed to criticize.

   Ironically, on a side note, GamerGate does have a working solution to stop the Anti-bullying messages simply because, as mentioned, those people are not anonymous and have jobs where posting such messages is (or should be) frowned upon, so luckily those guys in particular can be stopped.

 

 

 

On that note, a third question...

 

 

3) Bryy, would you be willing to email Gawker sponsors and alert them to the kinds of messages their writers and editors have been posting on twitter, and alert them that you (surely) don't condone bullying?

Edited October 25, 2014 by Longknife

[Namutree]

 

"Not a coincidence it's always women and girls committing whoring, the pattern is connected to ideas of toxic femininity in our culture"

 

Could do even worse... "It's mostly women who kill their babies, the pattern is connected to ideas of toxic femininity".

 

Get over it. Why do you linger on this? 

[Hiro Protagonist]

Every single one of your posts on this topic has been punctuated by a rage and indignation that astounds me. You think you're saying these mega-important and scathing things, but really its just a tantrum akin to a child. I love how you came to that conclusion about me based on a humor image. I have no idea why I thought posting in here - or at least engaging with you - was a good idea.

 

Much like your posts in the Pillars forum where someone pointed this out to you? I suggest having a cup of positive every morning. It might make you feel better.

[Keyrock]

I think it's just best to just let her comment stand on its own and speak for itself.  I can't imagine anyone with a clear, level-headed mind reading that comment, in light of current events, having any reaction other than being disgusted and appalled.  I mean, to use a tragedy like this to throw a low blow is horrible.  That's Fox News level shameful.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Keyrock

[Namutree]

 

 

Bryy: answer longknife's question

 

um, I don't really respond well to conspiracy theory tinfoil hat rants against my character.

 

But if you insist... the question was what am I doing to combat sexism in the industry? I'm kind of making a game with a female main character.

 

I thought it was why don't you stop the anti-gamergate side from propagating their pro-bullying agenda. Did I miss something?

Edited October 25, 2014 by Namutree

[Fighter]

 

 

"Not a coincidence it's always women and girls committing whoring, the pattern is connected to ideas of toxic femininity in our culture"

 

Could do even worse... "It's mostly women who kill their babies, the pattern is connected to ideas of toxic femininity".

 

Get over it. Why do you linger on this? 

 

Three posts is hardly lingering. And I've never been more disgusted by anything this person, who's is like it or not the poster child for gender equality in games, has ever said.

[Meshugger]

 

 

Bryy: answer longknife's question

 

um, I don't really respond well to conspiracy theory tinfoil hat rants against my character.

 

But if you insist... the question was what am I doing to combat sexism in the industry? I'm kind of making a game with a female main character.

 

 

That wasn't longknife's question.

[Longknife]

 

That wasn't longknife's question.

 

 

 

GEE WHERE'D HE GO AGAIN R WE PLAYING HIDE AND SEEK???

[Namutree]

 

 

That wasn't longknife's question.

 

 

 

GEE WHERE'D HE GO AGAIN R WE PLAYING HIDE AND SEEK???

 

Because he can't answer your question. His absurd double standard can't be justified so all he can do is leave.

[Longknife]

Sadly that doesn't seem to be a tactic specific to Bryy but to much of the anti-GG side...just so we're clear, that kind of **** annoys me more so than the issues at hand now, simply because REGARDLESS of what we discuss, such tactics are counterintuitive to progress. And sadly as we've seen now, they can be implemented on a massive scale...

 

 

 

Side note? Someone help me here: https://mobile.twitter.com/Kingofpol/status/525755692318457856

 

Kotakuinaction has a thread dissing the knife and discussing the letter. Am I blind? I see an envelope and a lighter. This is confusing and annoying the hell outta me cause I've no idea where this discussion is coming from.

[Zoraptor]

Meh. You aren't going to convince anyone by dogpiling, and I'd like to think of that as being something the SJWs primarily do. If you're going to try and point out that someone is being inconsistent you're far better off just being straight and plain about it rather than trying to score points or going overboard on the rhetoricals. Yeah, it is annoying that a lot of antiGG decide that anything has to presaged with disavowing misogyny or whatever- and that is definitely a PR/ rhetorical technique to frame narrative- and it is inconsistent as well but if your aim is to actually convince someone that that is the case you aren't going to do it by being overly aggressive, you're far more likely to just convince the person you're a asterisks and drive them away. You probably won't convince them with sweet reason either, but at least you have a chance. And if you think simply driving someone away is sweet victory then, well, you've got a lot more in common with the SJWs than you think.

[Longknife]

Meh. You aren't going to convince anyone by dogpiling, and I'd like to think of that as being something the SJWs primarily do. If you're going to try and point out that someone is being inconsistent you're far better off just being straight and plain about it rather than trying to score points or going overboard on the rhetoricals. Yeah, it is annoying that a lot of antiGG decide that anything has to presaged with disavowing misogyny or whatever- and that is definitely a PR/ rhetorical technique to frame narrative- and it is inconsistent as well but if your aim is to actually convince someone that that is the case you aren't going to do it by being overly aggressive, you're far more likely to just convince the person you're a asterisks and drive them away. You probably won't convince them with sweet reason either, but at least you have a chance. And if you think simply driving someone away is sweet victory then, well, you've got a lot more in common with the SJWs than you think.

 

I go overboard because it seems necessary, no?

 

 

They keep coming back. And they keep coming back with terrible arguments that they can't even properly defend. So let's make them realize you won't be heard or taken seriously unless you can defend your claims.

 

I'll be blunt (as I often am) and say that no, I held no hopes Bryy would ever offer productive discussion. His recent actions and responses to how confrontational I was prove it to me, personally. So tell me, why should we NOT be as aggressive as I was just now? What do we - as a collective in the interest of moving forward and discussing matters as productively as possible (stress on "as possible" seeing as we're a humble forum discussion with no power in this) - have to lose from the attitude I just exhibited and proposed utilizing?

 

 

I've no interest in driving away PRODUCTIVE SJWs who can have an objective debate....it's just unfortunate they seem like an endangered species. But driving off the ones who do nothing productive and make ridiculous hypocritical claims or only chime in when there's info or an event that supports their side? Yes, you better believe I wanna run these people off. It's nothing personal, I just find their commentary extremely distracting, disingenuous and unproductive.

 

It's like if GamerGate were a ten step process before it ends (regardless of succeeding or fail) certain people INSIST on obsessing over step one. Why? Because it suits their agenda. No, **** that. We discussed step one to death, and even IF Bryy were to somehow prove that every GamerGate supporter is a mysoginist and a bully and every bad word in the world, gawker, gamasutra and others are still losing advertisers rapidly. (Colgate left today, btw, if it wasn't mentioned) The debate is moving forward regardless of what they wish to obsess on, simply because we're seeing the effects of GamerGate be set in motion. I want to discuss the hear and now, not last month.

 

 

But yeah, I'm always open to discussion. Give me a good reason why you think my tone was counter-productive just now and I'll gladly stop and apologize. As for now though....? All I heard was a "well maybe if the planets aligned and you were nicer, he might've listened a little bit." Well damn, I better bend over backwards to try and make that happen and constantly welcome his nonsensical claims while avoiding the urge to highlight the logical fallacies of his claims, huh? Wouldn't wanna squander our chances of a miracle!

[Orogun01]

 

Meh. You aren't going to convince anyone by dogpiling, and I'd like to think of that as being something the SJWs primarily do. If you're going to try and point out that someone is being inconsistent you're far better off just being straight and plain about it rather than trying to score points or going overboard on the rhetoricals. Yeah, it is annoying that a lot of antiGG decide that anything has to presaged with disavowing misogyny or whatever- and that is definitely a PR/ rhetorical technique to frame narrative- and it is inconsistent as well but if your aim is to actually convince someone that that is the case you aren't going to do it by being overly aggressive, you're far more likely to just convince the person you're a asterisks and drive them away. You probably won't convince them with sweet reason either, but at least you have a chance. And if you think simply driving someone away is sweet victory then, well, you've got a lot more in common with the SJWs than you think.

 

I go overboard because it seems necessary, no?

 

 

They keep coming back. And they keep coming back with terrible arguments that they can't even properly defend. So let's make them realize you won't be heard or taken seriously unless you can defend your claims.

 

I'll be blunt (as I often am) and say that no, I held no hopes Bryy would ever offer productive discussion. His recent actions and responses to how confrontational I was prove it to me, personally. So tell me, why should we NOT be as aggressive as I was just now? What do we - as a collective in the interest of moving forward and discussing matters as productively as possible (stress on "as possible" seeing as we're a humble forum discussion with no power in this) - have to lose from the attitude I just exhibited and proposed utilizing?

 

 

I've no interest in driving away PRODUCTIVE SJWs who can have an objective debate....it's just unfortunate they seem like an endangered species. But driving off the ones who do nothing productive and make ridiculous hypocritical claims or only chime in when there's info or an event that supports their side? Yes, you better believe I wanna run these people off. It's nothing personal, I just find their commentary extremely distracting, disingenuous and unproductive.

 

It's like if GamerGate were a ten step process before it ends (regardless of succeeding or fail) certain people INSIST on obsessing over step one. Why? Because it suits their agenda. No, **** that. We discussed step one to death, and even IF Bryy were to somehow prove that every GamerGate supporter is a mysoginist and a bully and every bad word in the world, gawker, gamasutra and others are still losing advertisers rapidly. (Colgate left today, btw, if it wasn't mentioned) The debate is moving forward regardless of what they wish to obsess on, simply because we're seeing the effects of GamerGate be set in motion. I want to discuss the hear and now, not last month.

 

 

But yeah, I'm always open to discussion. Give me a good reason why you think my tone was counter-productive just now and I'll gladly stop and apologize. As for now though....? All I heard was a "well maybe if the planets aligned and you were nicer, he might've listened a little bit." Well damn, I better bend over backwards to try and make that happen and constantly welcome his nonsensical claims while avoiding the urge to highlight the logical fallacies of his claims, huh? Wouldn't wanna squander our chances of a miracle!

 

I know it can be frustrating, specially when it seems that things are going against you and you don't have a chance to defend yourself. Just remember this; you're trying to sway public opinion, people who don't have a bone to pick on this fight and are going to be more receptive of your tone specially if it doesn't fit with the opposing narrative. This is a conflict of attrition, the major news outlets are going to move on to the next story. We won't.

 

For those that are unaware of it; Mike Cernovich is a lawyer who has spoken in support of Eron and GG. He was doxxed by anti GG and has been swatted as a result as well as other incidents. Now there are going to be criminal charges brought against the people involved, apparently.

[Longknife]

I'm really curious as to why feminists seem to have their own exclusive urban dictionary wtf? https://mobile.twitter.com/femfreq/status/525350371125100545

 

 

Likewise follow the link and watch the video. What is it with the Anita's inner circle and obsessively posing as professors/teachers giving lectures?

 

Lastly, THE HELL IS GOIN ON WITH THAT PUPPET'S NECK?

[Volourn]

"//EDIT: ...and even IGN, think about that for a moment, IGN of all gaming sites comes of as a level-headed site."
 

Yeah, that article was pretty decent.

 

 

"I had a feeling she'd be more charismatic than people would expect. Dunno why, just did. And yeah honestly, she's the shield they should be hiding behind cause she seems more personable than any of them."

 

Hitler - a male btw - was too.

 

 

 

"The part about Dox and Death Threats and Rape Threads are supposed to be separate rather than "/". While they are connected by a line, its never supposed to imply that those three things are on the same level or even all done by the same people. The point was supposed to be that even though those things are denounced, nobody does anything to actually stop them from propagating. Now it just seems like the people denouncing are the ones doing the [direct] harm. I'm anti-GG and this graph's purpose is anti-GG, but I'm not going to look away from those that don't want bull****. There are degrees here. Do I think anyone associated with GG that doesn't agree with its tactics is tainted by proxy? Yes. But that doesn't make them a bad guy."

 

So, wnhy don't you stop the hateful feminist and sjws whoa re often males btw who are ahteful pieces of crap who bully and intimidate the women they claim to protect (because women are weak lol according to feminists). You agree with the silly movement's leaders.  btw, I'm not a GGer. I don't care about the media. I just don't like being a white male gamer rapists exist racist worst than ISIS which is what you anti GGers have labeled gamers. That DOES make you a bad guy.

 

"It's not sexist when we do it."

\

\Here's somethings exist but I dont' actually believe but for the lols: A lot of those murderous men are priamry raised by women and we all know behaviour is learned so why are women teaching men that it is okay to be murderous scumbags who target other men? For shame.

 

btw, That quote proves that she doesn't beleieve in equality. She is anti male. She believes men are rapists and murderers/ That's evil.

 

 

 

Equalism is the way to. I have never ever met a male gamer who seriously went,"L0L I don't want a no woman in my gaminga." Not a one.

 

EQUALISM > feminism

 

Only sexist racist scumbags think otherwise.

[Namutree]

 

Now there are going to be criminal charges brought against the people involved, apparently.

 

Good. Screw doxxers. 

[Longknife]

 

 

Meh. You aren't going to convince anyone by dogpiling, and I'd like to think of that as being something the SJWs primarily do. If you're going to try and point out that someone is being inconsistent you're far better off just being straight and plain about it rather than trying to score points or going overboard on the rhetoricals. Yeah, it is annoying that a lot of antiGG decide that anything has to presaged with disavowing misogyny or whatever- and that is definitely a PR/ rhetorical technique to frame narrative- and it is inconsistent as well but if your aim is to actually convince someone that that is the case you aren't going to do it by being overly aggressive, you're far more likely to just convince the person you're a asterisks and drive them away. You probably won't convince them with sweet reason either, but at least you have a chance. And if you think simply driving someone away is sweet victory then, well, you've got a lot more in common with the SJWs than you think.

 

I go overboard because it seems necessary, no?

They keep coming back. And they keep coming back with terrible arguments that they can't even properly defend. So let's make them realize you won't be heard or taken seriously unless you can defend your claims.

I'll be blunt (as I often am) and say that no, I held no hopes Bryy would ever offer productive discussion. His recent actions and responses to how confrontational I was prove it to me, personally. So tell me, why should we NOT be as aggressive as I was just now? What do we - as a collective in the interest of moving forward and discussing matters as productively as possible (stress on "as possible" seeing as we're a humble forum discussion with no power in this) - have to lose from the attitude I just exhibited and proposed utilizing?

I've no interest in driving away PRODUCTIVE SJWs who can have an objective debate....it's just unfortunate they seem like an endangered species. But driving off the ones who do nothing productive and make ridiculous hypocritical claims or only chime in when there's info or an event that supports their side? Yes, you better believe I wanna run these people off. It's nothing personal, I just find their commentary extremely distracting, disingenuous and unproductive.

It's like if GamerGate were a ten step process before it ends (regardless of succeeding or fail) certain people INSIST on obsessing over step one. Why? Because it suits their agenda. No, **** that. We discussed step one to death, and even IF Bryy were to somehow prove that every GamerGate supporter is a mysoginist and a bully and every bad word in the world, gawker, gamasutra and others are still losing advertisers rapidly. (Colgate left today, btw, if it wasn't mentioned) The debate is moving forward regardless of what they wish to obsess on, simply because we're seeing the effects of GamerGate be set in motion. I want to discuss the hear and now, not last month.

But yeah, I'm always open to discussion. Give me a good reason why you think my tone was counter-productive just now and I'll gladly stop and apologize. As for now though....? All I heard was a "well maybe if the planets aligned and you were nicer, he might've listened a little bit." Well damn, I better bend over backwards to try and make that happen and constantly welcome his nonsensical claims while avoiding the urge to highlight the logical fallacies of his claims, huh? Wouldn't wanna squander our chances of a miracle!

I know it can be frustrating, specially when it seems that things are going against you and you don't have a chance to defend yourself. Just remember this; you're trying to sway public opinion, people who don't have a bone to pick on this fight and are going to be more receptive of your tone specially if it doesn't fit with the opposing narrative. This is a conflict of attrition, the major news outlets are going to move on to the next story. We won't.

 

For those that are unaware of it; Mike Cernovich is a lawyer who has spoken in support of Eron and GG. He was doxxed by anti GG and has been swatted as a result as well as other incidents. Now there are going to be criminal charges brought against the people involved, apparently.

 

 

 

 

See, I disagree with this.

 

 

One of the labels attributed to the SJW side of things is "professional victim." Apparently there's some merit to that as this would be the second time (out of two times) where I got up in a SJW member's grill and they refused to counter a point on the grounds of my tone. I need not get into detail I assume, but I'm sure you all recall what happened comparatively when someone wasn't AS aggressive as I was just now, but still pointed out a fallacy or someone dodging the question: nothing came of it.

 

Nothing came of it except time and effort was wasted on an issue besides the main focal point entirely. And right now, nothing is coming of this except an internal debate about tone.

 

 

 

Let's say for arguments sake the idea that SJWs have a professional victim complex isn't theory, but fact. For arguments sake they are like this. You give them an inch, they'll take a mile. You tweet "I hope you die," they turn it into "RAMPANT MISOGYNY IN THE INDUSTRY."

Why give these people an inch? You give them an inch, and you're giving them a platform and a stage with which to claim you hurt "muh feelins" and thus you and the movement you represent are tantamount to terrorism. Then what happens? Then we spend WEEKS on the stand in a virtual court of law testifying that we're not INFACT terrorists....except the judge is rigged. The jury is rigged. Regardless of what we do, AT BEST we're proven "not as bad as previously thought but still bad." This is NONSENSE. We're not supposed to be on trial. THEY are. This is about journalism and about how we've not only got a bunch of gaming journalists coordinating and working together to try and stomp down the very people they serve, we've now got mainstream journalists buying into it as well. This is about how there's this weird little clique in the middle of it who has an interest in helping those corrupt journalists because those corrupt journalists are willing to peddle their "politically correct" messages in an industry where such things are largely irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

Every ****ing time someone like Bryy comes in here, what happens? Is anything productive said? No, go back and check yourself. There was a post subtlety hinting and calling attention to how convenient it is that while GamerGate claims to condemn such harassment, it does nothing to stop it. And when a question comes up "how do you propose to actually stop it," SUDDENLY HE HAS SOMEWHERE HE REALLY NEEDS TO BE! How convenient!

This isn't productive, this isn't helpful.

 

 

This is derailment. You can see it for yourself now in that as stated, today Colgate pulled ads and yet here we are focused on if my tone is acceptable.

 

The bitter irony is that.....much of the criticism from the SJW side of things is along the context of "you guys are insensitive jerks," and when we try to prove them wrong by being extra extra sensitive and open minded, being extra polite and hearing them out....? THEIR DERAILMENT TACTICS ARE THAT MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE. Why? Because it ends up being a discussion about whether we're jerks or not, and not about the actual issues at hand.

 

Now I'm not all knowing. I personally believe had we never worried about what they think of us, we could've gotten to where we are now (their message crumbling, advertisers pulling support left and right) faster, but I could be wrong. Maybe we did need that period of showing we super super super sensitive to get where we are now, maybe we didn't.

Regardless...why continue now? We know what happens if we play into that game. And if we don't? If we act like jerks when someone fails to provide an argument and back it up? Then the people providing the faulty arguments leave in a fit of emotion.....darn? Honestly who cares, they weren't bringing anything to the table. I've been here before with half a group ranting about my tone as the other says nothing or supports it. The result is always the same: it weeds out the people who brought nothing to the table, because for them, they can't admit to being wrong. For them, my tone is a convenient excuse to leave while still entertaining delusions they're not wrong. It's an excuse to flee a losing battle with some pride in tact.

 

 

Personally I think facts and logic trumps emotion on issues like this. Eventually, regardless of how we act, the truth will shine through. But as for me personally? No, I don't see the value or what we stand to gain (at least not at this stage of things) by being super super sensitive and giving a podium to speak from to people who we've already established to be incapable of backing up their arguments or providing productive debate.

 

 

And just as basic clarification, again, I'm not saying let's dog pile any SJW that comes in here. No, I'm saying why NOT dog pile the users who can't back up their arguments or offer productive debate; we literally have nothing to lose. For the record there's GG supporters in this thread too who's comments I find rather useless and always skip over. Only reason I'm not calling them out is because theirs rarely (if ever) derail the conversation, because fortunately for them we can more easily ignore them and continue the discussion, and while I would gladly name these people in the interest of fairness, it seems like unnecessary drama...sadly, it's not nearly as easy to continue when our OPPONENT in a debate insists on useless comments.

[Orogun01]

I don't need to yell to make my voice heard and I don't expect my voice to carry the weight that my arms can't.

 

Don't yell at people to get them to do something, Do something for yourself.

[Zoraptor]

I'll be blunt (as I often am) and say that no, I held no hopes Bryy would ever offer productive discussion.

Then you're better off saying nothing, really. If the only reason you're posting is to... make you feel good or stroke your ego or make someone else feel bad- and you admit it- then you should really consider not posting, and if you do don't expect everyone to react well.

 

Also...

 

I've no interest in driving away PRODUCTIVE SJWs[..] But yeah, I'm always open to discussion.

Well, no, you aren't. If you're going to decide who is 'productive' and try to run off anyone deemed non productive then you definitely aren't always open to discussion, you're sometimes open but sometimes just want to yell instead- basically, exactly what the loud faction of SJWs love to do by using all the labels you find annoying. I've never had any particular problem with Bryy or aluminumO₃ or Enoch to think that discussing something with them is pointless, even if I accept there's little realistic chance to change minds. If you're overly antagonistic even that small chance is gone.

 

I think everyone understands the impulse to vent unproductively and most people will do so one time or another, but it really isn't a good look.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Zoraptor

[kirottu]

Pro-GG blogpost that also talks about modern day radical feminism:

http://porlawright.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/gamergate-the-players-and-the-played/

 

Also, considering Sarkeesian's tweet I have lost the little respect I had for her. 

[kirottu]

I just "played" depression quest. *snip*

 

I think the main problem is the differences between falsely self-diagnosed "depression" and actual depression.

[TrashMan]

Anita does it again. Her list of "harrasment" techniques:

https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/525350371125100545

 

Which includes politely asking unwanted questions.

 

She has gone full retard.

[Vaeliorin]

Longknife, I realize you probably don't care what I think, but you do realize your tone also drives away people (from the whole movement, not just the thread) who are on the fence or generally pro-GG, but aren't rabidly pro-GG?

 

Anyway, I'm kind of curious what a galloping fighter/mage has to do with harassment.

[TrashMan]

Well I am definately anti-femist.

All rational feminist jumped ships and are now labeled equalist. Which leaves only the radicals holding the "feminist" banner.

[JadedWolf]

To be fair, there is an option on this forum to put users on ignore so you won't have to read their posts. If you find you can't ever have a meaningful discussion with someone and you only get annoyed by them, maybe that's an option to consider.