Journalism and sexism in the games industry

[Meshugger]

Nah, i would call it an interactive novel. With it not being a pejorative thing in itself, mind you. TotalBiscuit ran a good thing about formalism and gaming that explained this far better than i ever will.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Nah, i would call it an interactive novel.

 

*shrug* Considering that the genre of adventure games has its roots in Zork and its ilk, I consider interactive fiction to be a subset of video gaming.

[Longknife]

 

 

That's because you still have some humanity in you.

 

Anyone agreeing with that statement has gone FullMcIntosh.

Was that thing an actual quote?

 

 

Nope, i made it up. But i like that it still managed to give people a benefit of doubt.

 

//EDIT: Are people trying to attack the self-employed lawyer guy? How dumb can you be? The guy is clearly riding on the GG-thing with his own agenda and they still fall for it? Oh well, time to bring the popcorn then.

 

 

 

It's interesting regardless what happens because basically he suspects Zoe Quinn (or a friend of hers) and is claiming to have taken this to the FBI, who are now investigating. In other words it's a high stakes game now and we'll see results regardless of what they may be.

 

 

 

How did I know this claim of "you can't invalidate their experience" was coming?

 

 

If I had to guess, it's because you've probably felt how utterly ridiculous the stance "I've experienced depression in a way that doesn't map to the game's depiction, therefore the game's depiction is wrong" is

 

Mind you, there is nothing wrong with the first part of the statement - depression is a multi-faceted thing, and I'm pretty sure no two people experience it in completely the same way -, but when you're concluding that everybody else who doesn't feel the same isn't really depressed, it comes across as pretty damn arrogant.

 

 

 

Would you consider that game to be a great work of art or exceptionally well written?

 

 

Nope, but as someone who sometimes translates stuff for a living, I can tell you with supreme confidence that I've seen worse writing even from published authors, so I guess it's fit for the purpose of a video game.

 

 

Likewise, would you consider this a video game?

 

 

Yes, I would. Partially because video games as an artistic medium are (or should be) all about communicating their message through game mechanics, which is something Depression Quest does, and partially because it's essentially a "choose your adventure"-thingy, a genre which had a renaissance on handheld consoles a few years ago or something like that - if those are (were?) being sold as games, why shouldn't this be?

 

 

 

  I translate for a living too and I'm honestly confused what that has to do with terrible writing. I wouldn't compare "poorly written due to grammatical errors and lack of knowledge of the language" to "poorly written because sucky writer."

 

 

 

   Overall my point was that the amount of defense and name-dropping for this girl seems highly disproportionate and therefore bias given how it's highly debateable if the "game" is even a game, if the "game" is even good, and if the "game" even qualifies as a video game. Even if you answer yes to all of that, it's still questionable why a major gaming journalist would give this coverage AT ALL, and at the very least highlights a clear gap between the gamers and the people representing them as the gamer sentiment towards this game is astoundingly negative.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I translate for a living too and I'm honestly confused what that has to do with terrible writing. I wouldn't compare "poorly written due to grammatical errors and lack of knowledge of the language" to "poorly written because sucky writer."

 

 

I'm not sure in which camp would you place Depression Quest.

 

 

 Overall my point was that the amount of defense and name-dropping for this girl seems highly disproportionate and therefore bias given how it's highly debateable if the "game" is even a game, if the "game" is even good, and if the "game" even qualifies as a video game. Even if you answer yes to all of that, it's still questionable why a major gaming journalist would give this coverage AT ALL, and at the very least highlights a clear gap between the gamers and the people representing them as the gamer sentiment towards this game is astoundingly negative.

 

 

...The amount of defense and name-dropping she gets is more related to the amount of harrassment she receives than to the qualities of her game. What you're saying sounds suspiciously like "oh, her game was crap, therefore she deserves to be targeted with harrassment due to her sex life", the underlying logic of which I simply can't process.

Edited October 25, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Nonek]

 

"It's not sexist when we do it."

 

If this is real then I am sickened and disgusted, to be using a tragedy to promote your own hate mongering and political dabbling, there are no words for such behaviour but pure amoral evil. Sickening.

[Longknife]

 

I translate for a living too and I'm honestly confused what that has to do with terrible writing. I wouldn't compare "poorly written due to grammatical errors and lack of knowledge of the language" to "poorly written because sucky writer."

 

 

I'm not sure in which camp would you place Depression Quest.

 

 

 Overall my point was that the amount of defense and name-dropping for this girl seems highly disproportionate and therefore bias given how it's highly debateable if the "game" is even a game, if the "game" is even good, and if the "game" even qualifies as a video game. Even if you answer yes to all of that, it's still questionable why a major gaming journalist would give this coverage AT ALL, and at the very least highlights a clear gap between the gamers and the people representing them as the gamer sentiment towards this game is astoundingly negative.

 

 

...The amount of defense and name-dropping she gets is more related to the amount of harrassment she receives than to the qualities of her game. What you're saying sounds suspiciously like "oh, her game was crap, therefore she deserves to be targeted with harrassment due to her sex life", the underlying logic of which I simply can't process.

 

 

 

The latter group of course.

 

 

And no, I'm saying that....well, not to repeat myself, but in my attempt to understand both sides, I imagined Depression Quest must have good artistic merit, but bad gameplay mechanics, therefore the reason GG and Anti-GG disagree on it.

 

Then I found out it's pretty damned bad.

 

Then my theory fell through.

 

Then it was "wow ok gaming industry must be pretty bias to have given this coverage AT ALL. Moreso than I thought previously."

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

The latter group of course.

 

 

And no, I'm saying that....well, not to repeat myself, but in my attempt to understand both sides, I imagined Depression Quest must have good artistic merit, but bad gameplay mechanics, therefore the reason GG and Anti-GG disagree on it.

 

Then I found out it's pretty damned bad.

 

Then my theory fell through.

 

Then it was "wow ok gaming industry must be pretty bias to have given this coverage AT ALL. Moreso than I thought previously."

 

 

Well, as I've said, I've encountered crappier writing in published books.

 

I'm not really sure gaming journalists have ever given significant coverage to Depression Quest, the game, as opposed to Quinn, the harrassed game developer.

[Longknife]

 

 

The latter group of course.

 

 

And no, I'm saying that....well, not to repeat myself, but in my attempt to understand both sides, I imagined Depression Quest must have good artistic merit, but bad gameplay mechanics, therefore the reason GG and Anti-GG disagree on it.

 

Then I found out it's pretty damned bad.

 

Then my theory fell through.

 

Then it was "wow ok gaming industry must be pretty bias to have given this coverage AT ALL. Moreso than I thought previously."

 

 

Well, as I've said, I've encountered crappier writing in published books.

 

I'm not really sure gaming journalists have ever given significant coverage to Depression Quest, the game, as opposed to Quinn, the harrassed game developer.

 

 

 

Point is they're scraping the bottle of the barrel for excuses, and yes the game got name dropped by journalists who allegedly slept with the girl.

 

  The narrative is "this is an attack on female game developers" with her as the staple example, but calling Zoe Quinn a game developer (or Brianna Wu for that matter) is like calling Jack Nicholson an NBA All-Star. It's an "erm...I guess?" sort of reaction, and while that in and of itself is innocent enough, to see that function as the foundation of much of anti-GG's arguments is nothing short of ridiculous. It's on par with titling a news story as "Man attacks Las Angeles Lakers in brutal assault" when the reality is some guy slapped Jack Nicholson for saying something he didn't appreciate.

[Longknife]

https://archive.today/BzOlM

 

This isn't exactly relevant, per se, but still pretty funny to see. That article pre-dates Gamergate and is completely detached from the inner circles of the gaming community. It was a theory paper written about nationalistic europeans and feminists and how their little sub-cultures on the internet function. It's pretty funny to draw parallels between the feminism we see here and the feminism covered in that article.

 

It's also pretty funny to see communications academics actually analyze and categorize their common tactics. Yknow we often discuss it like "WELL THATS JUST UR OPINION," but here they are stating it all so matter-of-factly as if observing some wild tribe and their social structure, considering the very things we're encountering as typical in their "society."

[TrashMan]

That was an interesting read

[Longknife]

That was an interesting read

 

 

Like I said it doesn't really do anything, but it is rather humorous to see a year old article so accurately summarize the culture we're seeing now.

  Also tells me to avoid /pol/ (as if I'd planned on going there), so that's useful.

[Volourn]

"Might not be a shooting with guns, but in 2009 there was a girl with 10 molotow cokctails in Bonn:"

 

It's not ahrd to find examples of psycho women doing evil deeds. There's the one where a bunch of girls viciously attacked a 'friend' (a gril) supposedly ebcause a fake internet god told them to. L0L Not to mention the multittude of mothers who murder their own babies which are often given weak excuses like 'post partum depression made me do it'. WEAK.

 

 

"Seems like a reasonable claim, but basically impossible to prove. I don't really see your reason for kicking up such a fuss about it?"

 

Supporting sexism. Feminism 101.

 

 

 

"Games don't need to be fun."

 

Yes, they do. if they aren't fun they are trash, unplayable, garbage, and not games. Do you know what the word game entails? LMAO

[Ineth]

So I didn't follow gg much the last few days; now dropping back in I see articles like this, with a pretty sober and neutral tone: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/10/24/how-some-gamergate-supporters-say-the-controversy-could-stop-in-one-week/

 

What happen to the whole "gg is a coordinated hate movement made up of of evil monsters who must be stomped into the ground rather than allowed to present their side of the story" spin that seemed to dominate the media coverage a week ago?

On that note, what happened to #stopgamergate2014 - did that fizzle out already?

 

As for:

 

 

 

"It's not sexist when we do it."

 

If this is real then I am sickened and disgusted, to be using a tragedy to promote your own hate mongering and political dabbling, there are no words for such behaviour but pure amoral evil. Sickening.

 

 

I checked and yes it is real, and that's just one of several recent tweets of hers that go in that direction.

And then of course the obligatory disingenuous "b..b..but all I'm doing is asking questions!!"  and "criticism/disagreement is harassment!!!" angle.

At least it doesn't go unchallenged:

https://twitter.com/CathyYoung63/status/525876040120270848

https://twitter.com/SexyIsntSexist/status/526065047727263744

The author of that last tweet also wrote a blog post about the role of modern feminism in all of this, which IMO over-emphasizes that aspect of the greater gg conflict/drama, but is still worthy of a read I think. Small sample:

 

Radicalism is the orthodoxy in feminism today. Radfem mater familiar Germaine Greer went so far as to announce this summer, “We’ve gone as far as we can with this equality nonsense. It was always a fraud!”

 

The radical feminist script; about men and masculinity, female passivity, objectification and patriarchy, was written in the 1960s and 70s, but you can still hear it echoing down the generations in the sermons of people like Sarkeesian, who has a long and troubled relationship with “straight-male” sexuality.

 

[Longknife]

Now here's something that deserves views:  https://medium.com/@aquapendulum/reality-check-supplement-reading-for-historyofgamergate-com-graysons-relationships-308dc510c680

 

 

  I think GG tends to get off-track focusing on the dumb **** Anita says. Don't get me wrong, I clarified myself last thread that I was caught up in the fascination of it all too; we're all guilty of it and I'm more than happy to join in and speculate on why these people say terrible things, I just think we should mind how much we focus on it as this stuff is more of a hobby with trying to understand the human psyche rather than actually trying to get stuff done. I also think feminism is effectively the shield of anti-GG and pulls focus away from the real issues. Honestly, for example Anita's recent comment....who cares? Yes it's disgusting that she chose this timing to make the comment, but SADLY that's not uncommon within the industry; politicians and news organizations like MSNBC or Fox News are hella guilty of the same, she's just playing the same game. To call her out on it...? Feels more political, as we'd conveniently call out our opponents on drastic remarks rather than our own supporters.

   And as Gorgon said (think it was him), she's not exactly wrong in the claims. Let's not kid ourselves, the two genders aren't equal and are prone to different faults, with physical aggression being more common amongst males. If that still doesn't sit well with you and you feel her comments are still wrong somehow, I think this tweet sums up what's wrong about it. It's attributing the actions of few to an entire gender, as if to imply these things would never happen without men, or that all men are capable of these atrocities. By that same logic we can claim all women are serial killers because Elizabeth Bathory and Catherine Monvoisin did just a crackerjack job at that, curbstomping the record victims of their male counterparts to be two of the most notorious serial killers in human history. (No, I'm not exaggerating. Look this up and you'll find these two top the charts for highest count of possible victims, going as high as potentially having killed 650 and 2500 people respectively, higher than any other serial killer in history, and both are women. TIME TO NEVER TRUST ANY WOMAN EVER AGAIN SINCE THEY'RE ALL SERIAL KILLERS, AMIRITE?)




   But the above? It's on point and it's on topic. It's a little shaky in some regards, such as how the very people he was investigating conveniently seemed to erase their twitter and facebook history so some evidence is now restricted to screencaps, but regardless, this is the kind of thing that needs to be looked into, this is the kind of thing that people need to be asking questions about and really pushing, and this is the type of thing we should ultimately be focused on.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Longknife

[Volourn]

Funny, that I never heard of either of those partciualr serial killers. 

[Longknife]

Funny, that I never heard of either of those partciualr serial killers. 

 

 

Are you implying you try to stay in the know about serial killers?

 

 

Funny thing is I googled "craziest women in history" or something just to try and find a counter-point to Anita's broad statement about men and mass shootings. I was looking for anything: most notorious torturer, most notorious liar, traitor...you name it. Anything considered bad that I could say "SEE DAT MEANS ALL WOMEN ARE LIKE THIS" and highlight how flawed her statement is.

 

Was NOT expecting the two most notorious serial killers in human history to both be women. Monvoison even has an ideology to her:

 

 

Finally, she started to sell aphrodisiacs to those who wished for people to fall in love with them, and poison to those who wished for some one to die. Her knowledge of poisons was not apparently so thorough as that of less well-known sorcerers, or it would be difficult to account for Louise de La Vallière's immunity. The art of poisoning had become a regular science at the time, having been perfected, in part, by Giulia Tofana, a professional female poisoner in Italy, only a few decades before La Voisin.

 

 

So yeah, that was easier than I expected.

 

 

EDIT: Hell, check Giulia Tofana too! LOLWTF WHY WAS THIS SO EASY?

 

 

 

Under torture, she confessed to killing 600 men with her poisons in Rome alone between 1633 and 1651, but this cannot be confirmed owing to the torture and the widespread distribution of the poison. She was ultimately executed in Rome (in the Campo de' Fiori), together with her daughter (Girolama Spera, known as "Astrologa della Lungara") and three helpers, in July 1659. After her death, her body was thrown over the wall of the church that had provided her with sanctuary. Some of the users and purveyors were also arrested and executed, while other accomplices were bricked into the dungeons of the Palazzo Pucci.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Longknife

[JadedWolf]

I honestly don't think a few nutjobs say something about an entire gender, and to be fair men in general being more prone to use violence as a coping strategy really isn't something I'd question but speaking of female poisoners...

 

May I introduce you to Maria Swanenburg from Leiden?

 

"It was established with certainty she poisoned at least 102 people with arsenic of which 27 died (16 of those were her relatives) between 1880 and 1883. The investigation included more than ninety suspicious deaths. Forty-five of the survivors sustained chronic health problems after ingesting the poison. Swanenburg's motive was the money she would receive either through the victims' insurance or their inheritance. She had secured most of the insurance policies herself. Her first victim was her own mother in 1880; shortly after this, she killed her father too. She was caught when trying to poison the Frankhuizen family in December 1883."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Swanenburg

[Ineth]

Btw, Stephen Totilo (head of Kotaku) is starting to come across (imo) as a relatively decent and upstanding guy...

Misguided in his politics and allegiances maybe, but still, a journalist who (it looks like) may actually have some integrity, decency, and sincerity left in him.

 

Have we been too hard on moderate anti-gg journalists like him who ended up on that side of the fence mostly by default, and not because they hate gamers?

They're certainly not all on the level of Sam "bring back bullying" Biddle.

[Volourn]

"Are you implying you try to stay in the know about serial killers?"

 

L0L But, no, but everyone knows about Jack the Ripper without even trying to. I mean how many movies, books, tv shows have feature him or a rip off of him?

 

 

"Was NOT expecting the two most notorious serial killers in human history to both be women."

 

As opposed to non human history? Heh.

 

 

Violence is not some man only disease. People who think that are psychos.

 

Also, if I want to be really evil, why do men (and women) because mass murderers in the first palce? Well, there's the debate of nature versus nuture. As 'feminists' love to brag women are the ones who ar ein charge of kids from the time they are born to upper ages including the vast majority of pre school/kindergarten/primary school teachers being female... so how this female infleunce obviously leads little boys 9and girls) to be murderers right? RIGHT? L0L

 

 

"I honestly don't think a few nutjobs say something about an entire gender, and to be fair men in general being more prone to use violence as a coping strategy really isn't something I'd question but speaking of female poisoners..."

\

No. Spin it all you want the few nutjobs amongst men who are mass murderers or extremely violent are a minority and is not proof that men as a gender use violence as a 'coping mechanism'. I mean, don't yous exists realize that we are generally talkinga bout a very tiny % of the total population of human(man or woman)kind?

Edited October 25, 2014 by Volourn

[Shallow]

Jack the ripper is just some overhyped loser, only killed like six people, just because you've heard of him doesn't mean he was any more significant. To be fair though all histories biggest genocidal superstars were male, but that's probably more due to men dominating country control, not because men like their genocide.

[Nepenthe]

 

 

"It's not sexist when we do it."

Might not be a shooting with guns, but in 2009 there was a girl with 10 molotow cokctails in Bonn:

 

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/vereitelter-amoklauf-von-schuelerin-frauen-koennen-auch-aggressiv-sein-a-624246.html

 

She got stopped by another girl who accidentally ran into her in the ladies restroom. The surprised girl then attacked her with a knife and cut off a thumb while doing so (doc was able to reattach it, luckily).

 

But wait, this probably was a boy who pretended to be a girl. Can't be anything else, no? Or it doesn't count because the worst was prevented?

 

Anita Sarkeesian is a horrible person.

 

 

Also this one: http://yle.fi/uutiset/prosecutor_pair_planned_to_kill_50_at_university_with_guns_and_gas/7262776

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

 

"It's not sexist when we do it."

Might not be a shooting with guns, but in 2009 there was a girl with 10 molotow cokctails in Bonn:

 

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/vereitelter-amoklauf-von-schuelerin-frauen-koennen-auch-aggressiv-sein-a-624246.html

 

She got stopped by another girl who accidentally ran into her in the ladies restroom. The surprised girl then attacked her with a knife and cut off a thumb while doing so (doc was able to reattach it, luckily).

 

But wait, this probably was a boy who pretended to be a girl. Can't be anything else, no? Or it doesn't count because the worst was prevented?

 

Anita Sarkeesian is a horrible person.

Also this one: http://yle.fi/uutiset/prosecutor_pair_planned_to_kill_50_at_university_with_guns_and_gas/7262776

Clearly it was the man's idea.

[Volourn]

Behind every great man is an even greater woman.... Just sayin'...

[Nepenthe]

 

 

 

 

"It's not sexist when we do it."

Might not be a shooting with guns, but in 2009 there was a girl with 10 molotow cokctails in Bonn:

 

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/vereitelter-amoklauf-von-schuelerin-frauen-koennen-auch-aggressiv-sein-a-624246.html

 

She got stopped by another girl who accidentally ran into her in the ladies restroom. The surprised girl then attacked her with a knife and cut off a thumb while doing so (doc was able to reattach it, luckily).

 

But wait, this probably was a boy who pretended to be a girl. Can't be anything else, no? Or it doesn't count because the worst was prevented?

 

Anita Sarkeesian is a horrible person.

Also this one: http://yle.fi/uutiset/prosecutor_pair_planned_to_kill_50_at_university_with_guns_and_gas/7262776

Clearly it was the man's idea.

 

 

Actually, it was the other way around, but I CBA to find a link for it in English.

[TrashMan]

We how now Anita claiming that it's PROVEN #Gamergate is all about harrassing women!

 

https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/526111569986322432

 

And of course, that research turns to be so utterly bogus. Newsweek released an article with a conclusion, but the graphs they released prove THEM wrong.

 

https://medium.com/@cainejw/an-actual-statistical-analysis-of-gamergate-dfd809858f68

 

Oh this is unbelievable!

Edited October 25, 2014 by TrashMan