Why is Columbus Day still going?

[Leferd]

Aw, jeez, first the Holocaust never happened, now the Inca were never decimated. Come on.

 

Somehow I missed Valsuem's last post. Wowsers.

 

I feel like I'm playing against both sides here. I've always thought it as irrefutable fact that the Europeans purposefully engaged in germ warfare against the native populations in the Americas. In my opinion, Jared Diamond's work in Guns, Germs, and Steel, has sound scholarship.

 

It's Howard Zinn who I have qualms about.

[Barothmuk]

People who are offended by Columbus should go back to wherever their ancestors came from. It's the only morally right thing to do.

"Yeah stupid injuns go back where you came from!"

[Shallow]

 

People who are offended by Columbus should go back to wherever their ancestors came from. It's the only morally right thing to do.

"Yeah stupid injuns go back where you came from!"

 

Whilst most native Americans are probably not cool with Columbus, due to the shere population difference, the most people who are offended probably aren't natives.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

1) If we accept that the 'Inca were decimated' by disease, brought by the Europeans, what does that have to do with the Navajo, Iroquois, Apache, Maya, and countless other tribes who did and didn't suffer serious bouts of disease to varying degrees? The inca are indeed the best general examples of plague in the New World after the Euros showed up.

 

 

 

That's an easy one, Aztecs and Incans lives in large population centers while the tribes of North America were often nomadic and lived in smaller settlements.

 

[Valsuelm]

 In my opinion, Jared Diamond's work in Guns, Germs, and Steel, has sound scholarship.

 

 

Except it doesn't. It's a work that is very poorly cited, which is at the heart of the problem of the work. He makes assertions with zero evidence or citations, again and again in his book.

 

If I'd have written a history paper in college, or even high school the way that book is written I'd have gotten a deserved F even if what I wrote was 100% correct. I realize the standards have slipped in the last decade or two (holy **** at what I've seen some AP history teachers let their kids get away with recently), but there's no good reason someone with the credentials and background as Diamond is writing so poorly.

 

'Guns, Germs, and Steel' appeals to the layman, appeals to some modern theories of genetics, fits a popular dialogue regarding plague, and other often misguided things. Read a bunch of history books on the subject prior to it's publication (as I did once upon a time) that actually do have good scholarship, citations,and much better discussions of the evidence known, and you'll realize that Diamond is grasping at straws much of the time in his work, especially when he's discussing the 'germs' aspect of it.

 

And no, for the most part, the Europeans were not actively trying to spread disease, that's another myth. Especially smallpox, which is generally believed to be the biggest killer. Doing so could and would very possibly lead to suicide, as the Euros were not exactly immune to it themselves.

 

And yes, Howard Zinn was a quack historian on par with Diamond. They both are cut from the same ****ty cloth.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Valsuelm

[fgalkin]

The genocide label is fairly ridiculous, it implies that Columbus somehow knew that European diseases were going to rip through Native American populations.  

 

If you really want to go all out on this campaign, you should go after Cortes and Pizarro first.

In 1494, the population of Hispanola was over 3 million. In 1508, it was 60,000. This was under Columbus' direct governorship. It has gotten so bad that Queen Isabella removed him from power, in part because he would refuse to let the Native Americans to convert so he could keep them enslaved, and also due to repeated complaints of gross mismanagement (which were found true by de Bobadilla). Thus, you cannot say that Columbus was just a man of his time- he wasn't, because even his contemporaries thought that he was horrible. The Bobadilla report confirms it http://www.fofweb.com/History/HistRefMain.asp?iPin=ELAI0029&SID=2&DatabaseName=Ancient+and+Medieval+History+Online&InputText=%22order+of+Calatrava%22&SearchStyle=&dTitle=Bobadilla%2C+Francisco+de&TabRecordType=All+Records&BioCountPass=1&SubCountPass=2&DocCountPass=0&ImgCountPass=0&MapCountPass=0&FedCountPass=&MedCountPass=0&NewsCountPass=0&RecPosition=3&AmericanData=&WomenData=&AFHCData=&IndianData=&WorldData=&AncientData=Set&GovernmentData=

 

Columbus' defenders really should learn some history first.

 

Have a very nice day

-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

 

 In my opinion, Jared Diamond's work in Guns, Germs, and Steel, has sound scholarship.

 

 

Except it doesn't. It's a work that is very poorly cited, which is at the heart of the problem of the work. He makes assertions with zero evidence or citations, again and again in his book.

 

If I'd have written a history paper in college, or even high school the way that book is written I'd have gotten a deserved F even if what I wrote was 100% correct. I realize the standards have slipped in the last decade or two (holy **** at what I've seen some AP history teachers let their kids get away with recently), but there's no good reason someone with the credentials and background as Diamond is writing so poorly.

 

'Guns, Germs, and Steel' appeals to the layman, appeals to some modern theories of genetics, fits a popular dialogue regarding plague, and other often misguided things. Read a bunch of history books on the subject prior to it's publication (as I did once upon a time) that actually do have good scholarship, citations,and much better discussions of the evidence known, and you'll realize that Diamond is grasping at straws much of the time in his work, especially when he's discussing the 'germs' aspect of it.

 

And no, for the most part, the Europeans were not actively trying to spread disease, that's another myth. Especially smallpox, which is generally believed to be the biggest killer. Doing so could and would very possibly lead to suicide, as the Euros were not exactly immune to it themselves.

 

And yes, Howard Zinn was a quack historian on par with Diamond. They both are cut from the same ****ty cloth.

 

Perhaps, someone like Rushton is more of a scholar for you?

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

[Leferd]

 

In my opinion, Jared Diamond's work in Guns, Germs, and Steel, has sound scholarship.

 

Except it doesn't. It's a work that is very poorly cited, which is at the heart of the problem of the work. He makes assertions with zero evidence or citations, again and again in his book.

 

If I'd have written a history paper in college, or even high school the way that book is written I'd have gotten a deserved F even if what I wrote was 100% correct. I realize the standards have slipped in the last decade or two (holy **** at what I've seen some AP history teachers let their kids get away with recently), but there's no good reason someone with the credentials and background as Diamond is writing so poorly.

 

'Guns, Germs, and Steel' appeals to the layman, appeals to some modern theories of genetics, fits a popular dialogue regarding plague, and other often misguided things. Read a bunch of history books on the subject prior to it's publication (as I did once upon a time) that actually do have good scholarship, citations,and much better discussions of the evidence known, and you'll realize that Diamond is grasping at straws much of the time in his work, especially when he's discussing the 'germs' aspect of it.

 

And no, for the most part, the Europeans were not actively trying to spread disease, that's another myth. Especially smallpox, which is generally believed to be the biggest killer. Doing so could and would very possibly lead to suicide, as the Euros were not exactly immune to it themselves.

 

And yes, Howard Zinn was a quack historian on par with Diamond. They both are cut from the same ****ty cloth.

That's just silly. First time I've ever heard of someone attacking Jared Diamond's credentials as a scholar. BA from Harvard. Ph.D from Cambridge. Multi-disciplinary credentials as a scientist and professor teaching biology, history, and geography -tenured at UCLA. I'd say very few people are as qualified to write the topics of Guns, Germs, and Steel as Prof. Diamond.

 

And let's see...Guns, Germs, and Steel received wild critical acclaim from academia, the general public, and won the Pulitzer Prize.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Leferd

[fgalkin]

His problem with Guns, Germs, and Steel seems to be that it's a pop science book. Which it is. So is "A Brief History of Time," no one actually cites it, either. Doesn't make it actually wrong, though.

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

[Gromnir]

diamond is a hack? okie dokie.

 

in any event, the guy we would mention first as a kinda poster boy for the notion that white disease gutted many native populations in the western hemisphere is a guy by the name of Henry F. Dobyns. am not a huge fan o' his, but he typical don't get described as a quack.  is some considerable evidence that more than a few native american populations were destroyed entirely by european disease. when the british explorer, George Vancouver arrived in the puget sound in the late 1700s (am too lazy to look up the exact date) he observed that small pox had arrived before him. few survivors o' the horrific disease remained, and many o' those were rendered blind.  Dobyns were the first guy that were suggesting a major increase in the native pre-columbian population o' north america from initial estimates, and he were also making specific guesstimates about the toll o' european disease on such populations.

 

conversely, some o' the estimates o' native populations would appear to be based on... well, we don' t know what they is based 'pon. sure, the aztec capital were larger than paris, and far cleaner too, but there is few new world sites such Tenochtitlan that is making it easy for scholars to get a good estimate o' a population. the thing is, digging up north american sites has never resulted in the kind o' evidence one would need to back-up many of Dobyn's claims 'bout population numbers. 

 

there is considerable evidence that europeans attempted to use primitive biological weaponry 'gainst native populations. o' sure, the effectiveness o' such attempts were largely negligible, but the practice itself were hardly insular. however, perhaps ironically, the most effective means o' spreading disease amongst indigenous populations were entirely accidental-- pigs. the post columbus explorers invariably brought pigs with them, and some o' those pigs escaped before being eaten by our intrepid disease carrying explorers. sure, jerks such as de Soto lost much o' their crew to fevers and disease, but their pigs got loose into the native environment and thrived... and spread far more disease than did the explorers themselves. whatever intentional schemes were utilized to spread contagion, the accidental and natural means o' spreading far out weighed the intentional. and keep in mind that the colonials were dropping like flies from disease as well. 

 

https://www.armyheritage.org/education-and-programs/educational-resources/education-materials-index/50-information/soldier-stories/282-smallpox

 

bah. all o' this is silly. the vikings discovery o' north america did not change the world. like it or not, columbus landing in the west indies were a pivotal event in human history. us native americans were happily killing each other before europeans got to the New World. whatever unspeakable atrocities the europeans unleashed were largely a continuation o' the atrocities we were indulging in before  y'all discovered the western hemisphere. columbus changed the world. he deserves credit for that, whether we like how the world changed is a different question altogether. hey, some scholars is cheesed 'bout how many people throughout history has been killed in the name o' christianity, but am betting most such folks still give their kids christmas presents. columbus day? so what?

 

as an aside, we got little animosity for euro explorers. as we noted earlier, native americans were hardly living in a peaceful utopia before 1492. slavery, war, and genocide were committed in the western hemisphere Before columbus arrived, so in our mind, we has always thought it were hypocritical to blame euros for visiting such evils 'pon us. nope, our anger is limited to specific treaty violations committed by the US... but that is a whole 'nother topic.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited October 14, 2014 by Gromnir

[Hurlshort]

 

The genocide label is fairly ridiculous, it implies that Columbus somehow knew that European diseases were going to rip through Native American populations.  

 

If you really want to go all out on this campaign, you should go after Cortes and Pizarro first.

In 1494, the population of Hispanola was over 3 million. In 1508, it was 60,000. This was under Columbus' direct governorship. It has gotten so bad that Queen Isabella removed him from power, in part because he would refuse to let the Native Americans to convert so he could keep them enslaved, and also due to repeated complaints of gross mismanagement (which were found true by de Bobadilla). Thus, you cannot say that Columbus was just a man of his time- he wasn't, because even his contemporaries thought that he was horrible. The Bobadilla report confirms it http://www.fofweb.com/History/HistRefMain.asp?iPin=ELAI0029&SID=2&DatabaseName=Ancient+and+Medieval+History+Online&InputText=%22order+of+Calatrava%22&SearchStyle=&dTitle=Bobadilla%2C+Francisco+de&TabRecordType=All+Records&BioCountPass=1&SubCountPass=2&DocCountPass=0&ImgCountPass=0&MapCountPass=0&FedCountPass=&MedCountPass=0&NewsCountPass=0&RecPosition=3&AmericanData=&WomenData=&AFHCData=&IndianData=&WorldData=&AncientData=Set&GovernmentData=

 

Columbus' defenders really should learn some history first.

 

Have a very nice day

-fgalkin

 

 

Your statement has nothing to do with mine, which was actually a response to an entirely different statement.

[Longknife]

 

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

 

 

As a citizen of the fine town of Bumretch, Nebrahoma, I for one am profusely offended by this article's portrayal of my home and demand an immediate apology.

[Valsuelm]

In 1494, the population of Hispanola was over 3 million. In 1508, it was 60,000.

 

 

I'd love for you to cite your reference for that one, because no.

[Valsuelm]

 

That's just silly. First time I've ever heard of someone attacking Jared Diamond's credentials as a scholar. BA from Harvard. Ph.D from Cambridge. Multi-disciplinary credentials as a scientist and professor teaching biology, history, and geography -tenured at UCLA. I'd say very few people are as qualified to write the topics of Guns, Germs, and Steel as Prof. Diamond.

 

And let's see...Guns, Germs, and Steel received wild critical acclaim from academia, the general public, and won the Pulitzer Prize.

 

 

I didn't attack his credentials as a scholar, I said his scholarship in 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' was ****ty. It is, even if for the sake of argument he's 100% correct. Perhaps you don't know what good scholarship is, and the fundamentals of writing a concise and well written history, science, or other work.

 

But in regards to his credentials, you obviously hail from the number of folk who think that just because someone has a PhD after their name, or because they went to a prestigious school like Harvard or Cambridge, or because PBS went and made a documentary based on their work, that they know what they are talking about. Once upon a time I thought that way too. Then I went to college, met a lot of these people (know oodles to this day), and became disappointed and disillusioned with that illusion. People in universities by and large are not that smart, even at the most prestigious ones. If you think otherwise, you either never have been to one at length, or are one of the not that smart ones.

 

Mr. Diamond and the subject at hand aside, there are more incompetent folks with PhDs in field X than there are competent ones, especially these days when they've lowered the standards of getting them, and on average widened the # of people that receive them (there are a number of reasons for this but the primary one is probably just plain old $$$). Just as if you walk into your average McDonalds or most other businesses there are generally more incompetent employees than competent ones. Same is true of both Harvard and Cambridge, two institutions I've spent quite some time at and know many from. I even dated a girl for years while she was going to both and has a PhD from the latter.

 

And herein lies a fundamental problem so many on this forum, and so many throughout the modern world have. They buy into the hype, the prestige, the frankly: propaganda. They assume that people from these institutions know what they are talking about. Heck many think that these folks are the cream of the crop. On rare occasion this is true, just as it is true of many other areas of life and academia that don't have the well advertised prestige, but the norm is that it is not.

 

Also, as most well read historians would tell you: The majority of the best and most informative history books/papers/etc are not done by even remotely famous people. This is also true of most scientific works.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Meshugger]

I mean, I understand how propaganda works and all, but with so much historical data coming out of the woodwork, why is this still taught in schools?

 

Let alone a national holiday?

 

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

 

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/five-scary-christopher-columbus-quotes-that-let-you-celebrate-the-holiday-the-right-way/

 

It just boggles my mind, is all.

 

 

The best troll is never discovered.

 

One example i used several times is to go to any cinema/homestudio-forum and claim that 4:3-ratio is inheritly better than 16:9, 16:10 and so. Preferbly with made up graphs outragous arguments about FOV of the human eye and so on.  

 

 

Try to be more subtle next time, and you will succeed.

[rjshae]

I'd like to humbly suggest that we all get a day of vacation on July 20th each year. We'll call it... Armstrong day.

[Gromnir]

I'd like to humbly suggest that we all get a day of vacation on July 20th each year. We'll call it... Armstrong day.

not only were the whole moon landing faked, but the US space program were filled with ex-nazi scientists who escaped justice for war crimes by cooperating with the US military-industrial complex. furthermore, many dogs and chimps were killed in an attempt to ensure that space travel were safe enough for human astronauts. what about the chimps? not only that, but armstrong were a combat pilot in korea with the US navy, so armstrong's first steps on the moon were greased with the blood o' north korean and chinese dead.

 

...

 

am knowing that the absence o' an emoticon might throw some o' you folks off, but one hopes that the sardonic quality o' the above were not missed. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited October 14, 2014 by Gromnir

[Hiro Protagonist]

I'd like to humbly suggest that we all get a day of vacation on July 20th each year. We'll call it... Armstrong day.

 

I'm sure if you picked any day out of the year and call it anything you want, someone somewhere will be offended.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

I'd like to humbly suggest that we all get a day of vacation on July 20th each year. We'll call it... Armstrong day.

I'm sure if you picked any day out of the year and call it anything you want, someone somewhere will be offended.

Every third Wendsday of October we should have a day off for Off Day. Simply to have an excuse to not work.

[Keyrock]

 

I mean, I understand how propaganda works and all, but with so much historical data coming out of the woodwork, why is this still taught in schools?

 

Let alone a national holiday?

 

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

 

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/five-scary-christopher-columbus-quotes-that-let-you-celebrate-the-holiday-the-right-way/

 

It just boggles my mind, is all.

From here on forward, to troll people like you.

 

That's as good a reason as any.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Here's a good commentary : http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-end-of-columbus-day-is-end-of.html

 

Except he's wrong on Hispanics not being minorities because they descended from Spaniards. They're minorities because they also descended from Indians.

[Valsuelm]

Here's a good commentary : http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-end-of-columbus-day-is-end-of.html

 

Except he's wrong on Hispanics not being minorities because they descended from Spaniards. They're minorities because they also descended from Indians.

 

While not directly related to Columbus Day, very much directly related to why Columbus Day is under fire:

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Oh yea... bonus points if anyone actually watches the above, does some research to enlighten themselves, and then can tell me how it indirectly debunks some of the credibility of 'Guns, Germs, and Steel.' (which is not in any way discussed in either video).

Edited October 18, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Hurlshort]

That sounds like a lot of work Val.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

That sounds like a lot of work Val.

You should shred your business plan and start then.