Drama in indy gaming and games journalism

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

*snip excellent points*

 

At the same time, I do not approve of people constantly attacking you in abusive and ridiculing ways and I wish they would stop. We are trying to have a discussion here and that's not helpful. If anything, they are giving weight to the claims that Gamers want to shut dissenting voices up.

 

You made excellent points on why that Verge article isn't valid. I didn't have the strength for that and instead lashed out. I'm sorry.

 

But do think Bruce will reply to your points? No. He will simply go silent for few pages and then come back when the next "gamers are dead" article is posted: "Oh, look! All those valid points this article is making." *Smiley face*

 

Wow you GG guys really have some intelligent and mature people representing your argument

 

Nice one guys, you must be really proud

kirottu must have a crystal ball.

[BruceVC]

 

 

*snip excellent points*

 

At the same time, I do not approve of people constantly attacking you in abusive and ridiculing ways and I wish they would stop. We are trying to have a discussion here and that's not helpful. If anything, they are giving weight to the claims that Gamers want to shut dissenting voices up.

 

You made excellent points on why that Verge article isn't valid. I didn't have the strength for that and instead lashed out. I'm sorry.

 

But do think Bruce will reply to your points? No. He will simply go silent for few pages and then come back when the next "gamers are dead" article is posted: "Oh, look! All those valid points this article is making." *Smiley face*

 

Wow you GG guys really have some intelligent and mature people representing your argument

 

Nice one guys, you must be really proud

kirottu must have a crystal ball.

 

 

Oh yes I meant to comment earlier  about the allegation that "I don't want to engage in serious debate "

 

I enjoy these debates but I also have a busy social calendar. Also I can't respond to very post made by every person, so I have to apologize for that but sometimes its just me trying to have a discussion  with 5 different people

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Oh yes I meant to comment earlier  about the allegation that "I don't want to engage in serious debate "

 

I enjoy these debates but I also have a busy social calendar. Also I can't respond to very post made by every person, so I have to apologize for that but sometimes its just me trying to have a discussion  with 5 different people

Then respond to TN's points, instead of doing drive-by finger-wagging.

 

Here they are:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68931-drama-in-indy-gaming-and-games-journalism/page-7?do=findComment&comment=1522053

Edited October 11, 2014 by KaineParker

[BruceVC]

 

Oh yes I meant to comment earlier  about the allegation that "I don't want to engage in serious debate "

 

I enjoy these debates but I also have a busy social calendar. Also I can't respond to very post made by every person, so I have to apologize for that but sometimes its just me trying to have a discussion  with 5 different people

Then respond to TN's points, instead of doing drive-by finger-wagging.

 

Here they are:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68931-drama-in-indy-gaming-and-games-journalism/page-7?do=findComment&comment=1522053

 

 

KP I don't want to bore you guys with rehashing an old discussion, I do care  about not subjecting you to historical and possibly irrelevant posts. I am not that selfish

 

Besides I don't think TN is expecting me to respond anymore ?

[kirottu]

Brianna Wu Head of Development at indie studio Giant Spacekat, says in her twitter that she got doxxed by 8chan/#gamergate and that she gets threats.

 

I don't think that threating and doxxing those that develop games will make gamers life any better, even if they are small time indie developers

 

That "chatterwhiteman" has never tweeted anything gamergate related. Whatever his reasons were I hope the police finds him.

 

Death threats typically come from those lurking on the fringes of any movement. I get death threats on a pretty regular basis. I've had some pretty serious ones over the years, sometimes on the strangest issues. The people who make death threats aren't representative of anything or anyone. Anyone who makes death threats is not a rational, healthy person. People try to empathize with them but you can't. Crazy people do things for reasons that we can't understand.

Edited October 11, 2014 by kirottu

[JadedWolf]

I'm sorry Bruce, but I don't think anyone here is convinced. True Neutral's post was well thought out and deserved a response, and you seem to have plenty of time to respond to others.

[Blarghagh]

How interesting that you consistently do have time to respond to Volo but not to anyone actually making points. You're right, I don't expect you to respond. In fact, I'm hoping you won't because at this point it would just be aggravation instead of debate.

 

But since Twitter messages now seemingly do carry enough weight when they are reason to be AGAINST #GamerGate, I'm going to assume all my Twitter messages about harassment from the Anti-GamerGate side are now validated as well because anything else would be hypocrisy of the highest order. Here's a huge load more: http://gamergateharassment.tumblr.com/ What classy people you have representing the anti-GG side, Bruce. You must be so proud.

 

I think this is the last time I'm going to be responding to you, Bruce. You've consistently proven yourself to be two-faced and more concerned with proving you have some nebulous "progressive stance" like a badge rather than actually caring enough about progressive issues to think and debate on it and I'm sorry I didn't see it before. I'm not going to be ridiculing you for it like some of these guys, but I'm not obligated to acknowledge you either.

[Elerond]

 

Brianna Wu Head of Development at indie studio Giant Spacekat, says in her twitter that she got doxxed by 8chan/#gamergate and that she gets threats.

 

I don't think that threating and doxxing those that develop games will make gamers life any better, even if they are small time indie developers

 

That "chatterwhiteman" has never tweeted anything gamergate related. Whatever his reasons were I hope the police finds him.

 

Death threats typically come from those lurking on the fringes of any movement. I get death threats on a pretty regular basis. I've had some pretty serious ones over the years, sometimes on the strangest issues. The people who make death threats aren't representative of anything or anyone. Anyone who makes death threats is not a rational, healthy person. People try to empathize with them but you can't. Crazy people do things for reasons that we can't understand.

 

Twitter threats, at least those which is posted one, were done from new twitter account which was only used, in my knowledge, to deliver those threats which is quite typical thing in these twitter threats. But reason why I linked them to this discussion is because Brianna Wo seems been critical towards #gamergate and says that she got doxxed by 8chan/#gamergate before those threats, she seems to think that threats were related to #gamergate and more importantly lot of other people like Wil Wheaton who retweeted threats with #gamergate hastag with them and some of the tweets which Brianna Wo posted as proof about threats implies that threats used doxxed information (like her address, which was obscured in the posted proof picture).

 

Longer list of threats that include one that implies to have address information which is obscured

https://twitter.com/Spacekatgal/status/520739878993420290

[Gorgon]

How can you get doxxed if you are a public persona. What would be the point ?

[Gorgon]

I suspect the death threats aren't representative of anything other than the existance of a few people with borderline personality disorder who are addicted to being the center of attention, being in the eye of the storm as it were. Being any kind of celebrity can be dangerous. Stalkers who can't tell the difference between movies/TV/Web scandal and real life can pose a real danger. 

[Walsingham]

Death threats, at least in the UK, will get you arrested, prosecuted, and sent to jail.

 

The internet is not the kiddie pool. Don't piss in it.

[Gorgon]

It would be nice to see a few prosecutions to let the rest know it's not without consequence. 

[BruceVC]

How interesting that you consistently do have time to respond to Volo but not to anyone actually making points. You're right, I don't expect you to respond. In fact, I'm hoping you won't because at this point it would just be aggravation instead of debate.

 

But since Twitter messages now seemingly do carry enough weight when they are reason to be AGAINST #GamerGate, I'm going to assume all my Twitter messages about harassment from the Anti-GamerGate side are now validated as well because anything else would be hypocrisy of the highest order. Here's a huge load more: http://gamergateharassment.tumblr.com/ What classy people you have representing the anti-GG side, Bruce. You must be so proud.

 

I think this is the last time I'm going to be responding to you, Bruce. You've consistently proven yourself to be two-faced and more concerned with proving you have some nebulous "progressive stance" like a badge rather than actually caring enough about progressive issues to think and debate on it and I'm sorry I didn't see it before. I'm not going to be ridiculing you for it like some of these guys, but I'm not obligated to acknowledge you either.

 

Wow I'm sorry you feel that way but since you are being honest I'm going to be honest. Firstly in most cases I don't really mind if certain people say "they won't debate with me" because the reasons they give are normally irrelevant and just more about the fact they can't accept my views or are annoyed with perceptions around my posting style. But you are one of those peoples opinions  I do care about because I do respect you. You are also a reasonable person who means well. So it concerns me that you don't want to debate with me and I would like to explain a few things before you decide this

 

Firstly yes you are right I didn't respond to your entire post but as I explained I have been busy the last 2 days and since Thursday I haven't been on the forums for long periods. I can easily respond to Volos point and others because the truth is they don't need much detail  because its just a quick one liner or so. I read that article but I didn't study each paragraph and its obvious you read it properly and made a very impressive and detailed post about it. It now means in order to respond to you properly I need to go and spend much more time  with detailed responses. And this was time I didn't have the last few days

 

But I really admire  the effort you put into your posts where you explain your issues with an article. I can imagine its both annoying and frustrating to spend time creating a detailed post and them someone doesn't respond, you can almost think " whats the point, this person doesn't appreciate my efforts"

 

But that's not the case in this example. I do genuinely read most posts and try to respond when I am able . All I can ask is you can make your posts not as detailed, maybe less examples that require responding as my issues sometimes are about the time I have and how lI can respond accordingly

 

In summary I'm sorry for not  responding to your post and the other one but it was purely a time factor

Edited October 11, 2014 by BruceVC

[Elerond]

How can you get doxxed if you are a public persona. What would be the point ?

Reason behind Doxxing (releasing their home address and other contact information and specific somewhat intimate details about person in net forum or similar place where it can be seen anonymously and with little traces left behind) public persona is usually to advocate harassment against that person by offering easier access to information that usually needs some effort to be find out and giving that information in net forum gives harassers more protection as they don't leave traces of themselves in databases that contain that information, which makes it more difficult for police actually find harassers, as they often use anonymous accounts/letters, burner phones or some similar nearly impossible traced way to deliver their threats, which can often be made very specific with given information, which will instill fear and panic in those who receive them even though even if all information in the threats were actually things that can be found from public databases.

[Fighter]

Anti-GG crowd aren't the only ones receiving these types of threats. But will we see the prominent social justice cliques make a deal out of it or even talk about it? Not likely.

 

Warning profanity:

 

http://s29.postimg.org/olikvuoon/By_Lx_F7o_CYAIBLPo.jpg

https://twitter.com/GGfeminist/status/520754494313754624

[NWN_babaYaga]

I dont care if that brianna wu gets of the I-net. I have seen her day after day flooding the gamergate hashtag with stupidity and false accusations and now she wonders that someone gets mad. It´s karma to me. 

 

 

Edit : You are precariously close to advocating IRL violence. That's obviously a no go. Even if what you describe is a hypothetical, I'm sorry it's just creepy enough that I don't feel I can allow it.

 

 

 

Regards, Gorgon. 

Edited October 11, 2014 by Gorgon

[Blarghagh]

 

How interesting that you consistently do have time to respond to Volo but not to anyone actually making points. You're right, I don't expect you to respond. In fact, I'm hoping you won't because at this point it would just be aggravation instead of debate.

 

But since Twitter messages now seemingly do carry enough weight when they are reason to be AGAINST #GamerGate, I'm going to assume all my Twitter messages about harassment from the Anti-GamerGate side are now validated as well because anything else would be hypocrisy of the highest order. Here's a huge load more: http://gamergateharassment.tumblr.com/ What classy people you have representing the anti-GG side, Bruce. You must be so proud.

 

I think this is the last time I'm going to be responding to you, Bruce. You've consistently proven yourself to be two-faced and more concerned with proving you have some nebulous "progressive stance" like a badge rather than actually caring enough about progressive issues to think and debate on it and I'm sorry I didn't see it before. I'm not going to be ridiculing you for it like some of these guys, but I'm not obligated to acknowledge you either.

 

Wow I'm sorry you feel that way but since you are being honest I'm going to be honest. Firstly in most cases I don't really mind if certain people say "they won't debate with me" because the reasons they give are normally irrelevant and just more about the fact they can't accept my views or are annoyed with perceptions around my posting style. But you are one of those peoples opinions  I do care about because I do respect you. You are also a reasonable person who means well. So it concerns me that you don't want to debate with me and I would like to explain a few things before you decide this

 

Firstly yes you are right I didn't respond to your entire post but as I explained I have been busy the last 2 days and since Thursday I haven't been on the forums for long periods. I can easily respond to Volos point and others because the truth is they don't need much detail  because its just a quick one liner or so. I read that article but I didn't study each paragraph and its obvious you read it properly and made a very impressive and detailed post about it. It now means in order to respond to you properly I need to go and spend much more time  with detailed responses. And this was time I didn't have the last few days

 

But I really admire  the effort you put into your posts where you explain your issues with an article. I can imagine its both annoying and frustrating to spend time creating a detailed post and them someone doesn't respond, you can almost think " whats the point, this person doesn't appreciate my efforts"

 

But that's not the case in this example. I do genuinely read most posts and try to respond when I am able . All I can ask is you can make your posts not as detailed, maybe less examples that require responding as my issues sometimes are about the time I have and how lI can respond accordingly

 

In summary I'm sorry for not  responding to your post and the other one but it was purely a time factor

 

 

It's not the lack of response that bothered me at all, Bruce. Truth be told, you were correct when you say I didn't expect one. I can respect not having time as well and I wouldn't have made this decision if you had only said that. What did me in was two things:

 

- The rationalisation of "old and boring, historical and irrelevant". Since those posts are barely two days old and two pages in, we're still discussing the same subject and it's still very much relevant it showed me that you are willing to ignore something out of convenience or false reasoning, especially since you have responded to older posts before.

 

- The damnation of all of GG over a threat made on a source that you yourself made the value judgement about of not being credible at all, without looking into its credibility at all (as has been pointed out, that account has not posted any GamerGate related tweets nor does it mention GamerGate).

 

I can respect not having time, but I cannot respect not having all the facts, ignoring points, measuring by double standard and still making value judgements about it. I also want to make clear, I am not saying I'm going to completely ignore you but in the context of this subject, I am pretty much done with you.

Edited October 11, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[NWN_babaYaga]

They dont want facts but a reason to throw dirt at people. Thats all. Using a "victim" as an excuse for defamation and online stasi tactics is what makes these people relevant to society in general. Because now you can see who they realy are and i dont like it. We here in germany are 25 years over now with the IM´s and stasi and I hate them. If people here would be more aware that these so called SJWs are the same kind of IM´s the Stasi had it would be very different for them on the streets. Its not save for IM´s here and thats good! My family has ties to people who were thrown in jail for many years because of their political oppinion and you can see that in their faces. So this is not just an I-net thing for me but a recall of history too. These people have no clue what people had to go trough and here they spread their gospel of social justice. NO my friends you are an enemy! And the term enemy for me means you are one outside too...

 

And i grew up in west berlin so you know. I was fully aware of the DDR myself, I´m born 75.

 

ps

and sorry for my little outbreak but people who advocate a tyrannical system are a no go for me. And thats what they do!

Edited October 11, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[BruceVC]

 

 

How interesting that you consistently do have time to respond to Volo but not to anyone actually making points. You're right, I don't expect you to respond. In fact, I'm hoping you won't because at this point it would just be aggravation instead of debate.

 

But since Twitter messages now seemingly do carry enough weight when they are reason to be AGAINST #GamerGate, I'm going to assume all my Twitter messages about harassment from the Anti-GamerGate side are now validated as well because anything else would be hypocrisy of the highest order. Here's a huge load more: http://gamergateharassment.tumblr.com/ What classy people you have representing the anti-GG side, Bruce. You must be so proud.

 

I think this is the last time I'm going to be responding to you, Bruce. You've consistently proven yourself to be two-faced and more concerned with proving you have some nebulous "progressive stance" like a badge rather than actually caring enough about progressive issues to think and debate on it and I'm sorry I didn't see it before. I'm not going to be ridiculing you for it like some of these guys, but I'm not obligated to acknowledge you either.

 

Wow I'm sorry you feel that way but since you are being honest I'm going to be honest. Firstly in most cases I don't really mind if certain people say "they won't debate with me" because the reasons they give are normally irrelevant and just more about the fact they can't accept my views or are annoyed with perceptions around my posting style. But you are one of those peoples opinions  I do care about because I do respect you. You are also a reasonable person who means well. So it concerns me that you don't want to debate with me and I would like to explain a few things before you decide this

 

Firstly yes you are right I didn't respond to your entire post but as I explained I have been busy the last 2 days and since Thursday I haven't been on the forums for long periods. I can easily respond to Volos point and others because the truth is they don't need much detail  because its just a quick one liner or so. I read that article but I didn't study each paragraph and its obvious you read it properly and made a very impressive and detailed post about it. It now means in order to respond to you properly I need to go and spend much more time  with detailed responses. And this was time I didn't have the last few days

 

But I really admire  the effort you put into your posts where you explain your issues with an article. I can imagine its both annoying and frustrating to spend time creating a detailed post and them someone doesn't respond, you can almost think " whats the point, this person doesn't appreciate my efforts"

 

But that's not the case in this example. I do genuinely read most posts and try to respond when I am able . All I can ask is you can make your posts not as detailed, maybe less examples that require responding as my issues sometimes are about the time I have and how lI can respond accordingly

 

In summary I'm sorry for not  responding to your post and the other one but it was purely a time factor

 

 

It's not the lack of response that bothered me at all, Bruce. Truth be told, you were correct when you say I didn't expect one. I can respect not having time as well and I wouldn't have made this decision if you had just come out and said that originally. What did me in was two things:

 

- The rationalisation of "old and boring, historical and irrelevant". Since those posts are barely two days old and two pages in, we're still discussing the same subject and it's still very much relevant it showed me that you are willing to ignore something out of convenience or false reasoning, especially since you have responded to older posts before.

 

- The damnation of all of GG over a threat made on a source that you yourself made the value judgement about of not being credible at all, without looking into its credibility at all (as has been pointed out, that account has not posted any GamerGate related tweets nor does it mention GamerGate).

 

I can respect not having time, but I cannot respect not having all the facts, ignoring points, measuring by double standard and still making value judgements about it. I am not saying I'm going to completely ignore you but in the context of this subject, I am pretty much done with you.

 

 

Interesting, but now you have added to  your criticisms and I don't agree with several points

 

I feel I need to repeat some of my point because you still don't understand something

 

Today is the first day I've had since Thursday to respond in more detail. Therefore there is no previous excuse as today is when I could only respond. So there is also  no false reasoning or excuse. My timeline is base on fact, for example I had people over for a party and we were using my laptop as the method to play the music. I couldn't now write a long and detailed response but I could respond to Volo. So once again this is a perfectly logical reason for me not responding

 

 

I said the link accurately reflected my view, I know this from the overall point he was making. That doesn't mean I crosschecked  every single point he made, (I doubt anyone does who reads links ) but end of the day his " facts " just support his view so there was no reason for me to doubt what he said as the main point he was making doesn't change. And finally I also said his link doesn't define all the people in GG. So there was no damnation of all GG members. There is a difference

[Blarghagh]

The false reasoning is the "old and historical" bit, and this damnation is what I was referring to.

 

Wow you GG guys really have some intelligent and mature people representing your argument

 

Nice one guys, you must be really proud

 

Like I said, I completely understand not having time. I barely posted last week because I had the flu, myself. The lack of response to that single post is not my reasoning, but the content of your responses and what things you choose to respond to. I want you to understand that. Trying to debate with you on this subject simply doesn't seem to have any point to me and it is aggravating, so I am doing this for my own peace of mind most of all. As demonstrated by how compelled I am to continue defending my decision despite my claim I wasn't going to respond to you anymore (I'm somewhat hypocritical that way), I have a hard time ignoring posts but I feel this is going nowhere, so I have to stop.

[BruceVC]

The false reasoning is the "old and historical" bit, and this damnation is what I was referring to.

 

Wow you GG guys really have some intelligent and mature people representing your argument

 

Nice one guys, you must be really proud

 

Like I said, I completely understand not having time. I barely posted last week because I had the flu, myself. The lack of response to that single post is not my reasoning, but the content of your responses and what things you choose to respond to. I want you to understand that. Trying to debate with you on this subject simply doesn't seem to have any point to me and it is aggravating, so I am doing this for my own peace of mind most of all. As demonstrated by how compelled I am to continue defending my decision despite my claim I wasn't going to respond to you anymore (I'm somewhat hypocritical that way), I have a hard time ignoring posts but I feel this is going nowhere, so I have to stop.

 

Fair enough, you are perfectly entitled to not debate with anyone you don't want to. I won't lie though, I am disappointed because I thought I adequately explained myself which should have mitigated at least 50 % of your issues with me. But I also think we have discussed this particular topic to death.

 

Also responding to me now is not the same as responding to the topic so don't feel you are being a hypocrite, you aren't

 

Anyway we can chat in other topics

[Fighter]

And one more time in the lands of irony:

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

And one more time in the lands of irony:

 

...

 

The double standards these people have require a level of doublethink I didn't believe was possible.

[Lexx]

Actually, this whole thing must be a really huge and happy fun park for every serious internet troll who sticks around. I mean, I could just post some angry rant about anti-GG somewhere, then a bit later with a different account, I post some angry rant about GG somewhere else, etc. And by the looks of it, further fueling this "conflict" seems to be pretty easy too. It's like a troll paradise.

[Malcador]

Helped by the fact these lazy ass SJWs so easily take offence to everything easily.

 

Al Qaeda should just troll on Twitter, seems to cause more panic than bombings