Out of combat buffs

[Cubiq]

I would love if they enabled out of combat buffing.

The reason is because i feel that it would not really change much in how players could use it. (or misuse it)

 

Pretty much all of the buffs have very short durations, this is why i feel that you would be wasting spells if you tried to prebuff extensively before combat, mainly because your spells are limited by your camping supplies.

 

I feel that the currenty "faded out" buttons breaks the consistency of the spells, since there does not seem to be any lore-like reason behind it.

I also find it annoying that you can not cast any buffing spells, even though your wizard is in the midst of casting a fireball directly at the next group of enemies.

Instead you need to wait for the fireball to hit the enemy before you can even start issuing orders to some of your characters, like your priest.

 

I know you can slightly abuse the system by buffing yourself before casting a fireball creating slightly more damage, however you will be wasting buff duration, before the fireball finishes casting + enemy reaching you, so the damage will probably even out in the end.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Cubiq

[archangel979]

I would like to see out of combat buffs as well. But I would like them to go D&D 5 route and have them limited to one active. In D&D 5 buff spells need you to keep Concentrating on them. While that does not stop you from casting regular spells, if you cast another spell that needs you to Concentrate, that one overrides the one that was active. 

 

Main reason OE decided to kill out of combat buffs is so the battles would not be determined by how many buffs you cast before it, but D&D5 solution lets us have our cake and eat it too. And D&D5 implemented this because crazy buffing before combat was a problem in earlier versions of D&D as well. 

Edited October 6, 2014 by archangel979

[PrimeJunta]

Yeh, I don't think it'd do any harm to let you cast buffs out of combat. As you say, the short durations have already taken care of the problem.

[Sensuki]

It would free up Wizards and the like probably because some of the casters are pretty terrible in combat due to having to sacrifice their damage output for lighing themselves up like a Christmas tree in the thick of battle.

 

Can't say I'm a fan of the removal of pre-buffing either, since it was an activity I actually enjoyed doing.

 

Enemy wizards are a joke at the moment. One Arbalest bolt from a Rogue and they go down instantly every time.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Sensuki

[morhilane]

Enemy wizards are a joke at the moment. One Arbalest bolt from a Rogue and they go down instantly every time.

 

Pretty much everyone one goes down after one arbalest bolt form a Rogue right now (unless it's a graze).

[Captain Shrek]

What was Josh's argument against pre-buffing anyway?

[Cubiq]

Something along the lines of not having to stand there and buff up before every combat.

[Gfted1]

What was Josh's argument against pre-buffing anyway?

That's theres no "opportunity cost" to prebuffing.

[Jon of the Wired]

I've never liked prebuffing much; it always just seemed like busy work. I do agree, however, that the short duration on buffs does seem to solve the problem, and I'm not sure having spells that can only be cast after combat has been initiated is justified.

 

Actually, that being said, PoE does generally seem to have a problem with alpha striking being a dominating tactic, and removing the in-combat restriction on buffs would make that worse.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I never liked all the pre-buffing either. If they are short in duration, I can see no harm, really, but overall I'm happy they are gone.

[Captain Shrek]

 

What was Josh's argument against pre-buffing anyway?

That's theres no "opportunity cost" to prebuffing.

 

Wut.

[Gfted1]

 

 

What was Josh's argument against pre-buffing anyway?

That's theres no "opportunity cost" to prebuffing.

 

Wut.

 

 

He wants it to cost the player to buff up when they could be fighting.

[Captain Shrek]

 

 

 

What was Josh's argument against pre-buffing anyway?

That's theres no "opportunity cost" to prebuffing.

 

Wut.

 

 

He wants it to cost the player to buff up when they could be fighting.

 

 

But what about tactics? Isn't buffing before battle more sensible? And that has the oppurtunity cost of NOT knowing which buffs may be useful.

 

I mean, come on!

 

In BG2 the problem was hard scripting. it has been 10+ years since then. Shouldn't the solution be a better AI and not Bathesada feature removal?

[Karkarov]

I never liked all the pre-buffing either. If they are short in duration, I can see no harm, really, but overall I'm happy they are gone.

^ Yeap.  I never liked pre buffing.  It was pre fight busy work and it was cheesy and just a way of gaming the system.  World of Warcraft even removed most buffs from the game and made those it kept last an insanely long time.  Why?  Because in their years and years of running the most played MMO on the market they learned something... most people don't find the act of buffing to be very fun and it is better to get people in the fight and experiencing combat than making them do a buff dance between every fight.  In other words, if you know a buff is needed, it is better to just hard code that buff into the class so they always have it.  Buffing in and of itself is not a fun activity and adds nothing to the gameplay unless it serves a legitimate tactical reason.

 

To long?  Did not read?!?!?!  Obsidian, keep it how it is, maybe just make your buffs more worthwhile so people are willing to use them in combat.

[wanderon]

Not a fan of pre-buffing either and losing that capability is fine with me.

 

It always felt like cheating to me - ok gang huddle up so our spell casters can put a dozen protection spells on us before we see what's down the road - don't worry it won't hurt much.

 

(can already hear the don't use it if you don't like it echoing off the walls)

[Captain Shrek]

That's just your conscience speaking. :D

[gkathellar]

 

What was Josh's argument against pre-buffing anyway?

That's theres no "opportunity cost" to prebuffing.

 

 

Which is a very good point - if prebuffing is available as it was in the IE games, it is always the right decisions. That said, there are two concerns I have with it:

1. With the very short durations of spells in PoE, that's less of an issue right now. Now, mind you, pre-buffing with short-duration buffs is something I absolutely hate, because it stresses me out, but that's just a me thing.
2. If the lack of an opportunity cost is an issue, why not find ways to give it one?  Take the "invest mana to maintain buffs" approach of Dragon Age, for instance - something like that isn't impossible to implement in PoE. A wizard could enable a buff for the duration of a rest by memorizing it, costing both XYZ spells/rest, and some of their normal versatility. There are other approaches as well: off the top of my head, maintaining buffs might slow down other spellcasting, or otherwise penalize the caster. Having a buff of a particular level up might prevent you from casting spells of the same level. Buffs might shut down if their caster took too much damage, as their concentration (eh? eh?) was broken.

Of course, in reality, it's probably too late for this. Too bad, but ... honestly, it's not the worst thing in the world, and I find that a lot of PoE's short-duration buffs are not only quite charming, but much more tempting to actually use than short-duration buffs in the I.E. games were.

 

One spell that does need to be fixed, though? Kalakoth's Minor Blights. They're obviously Melf's Minute Meteors (actually my favorite spell in BG2), and that was a spell that had an opportunity cost, and it worked: it had an indefinite duration, but once cast, you only had a limited number of meteors to throw, and you couldn't attack with any of your other weapons until they were exhausted. KMB should not be running on a duration timer.

[Sensuki]

I smell a bit of popamole in here.

[archangel979]

Prebuffing was kind of OK in BG1, but in BG2 and later in NWN games it became terrible. It was so bad in NWN2 you had to use mods that would cast all your buffs you set up with one click (and use up all the slots) instead of your waiting few minutes until it was done. I never used that mod but after a while I lost all the will to prebuff and would rather load the game and do the fight again if I lost. 

[Captain Shrek]

This is simply the fault of trivializing magic and bad AI.  To blame it on "pre-buffing" is pretty much insane. 

[Sensuki]

There was nothing wrong with pre-buffing in any of the IE games actually.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I respect those who enjoy pre-buffing. I have other things that seem boring to others that I sometimes enjoy, for instance, save scumming and inventory shuffling. To each their own when it comes to CRPG habits, hehe.

[Barleypaper]

I didn't dislike pre-buffing in the infinity engine games, but I can see why others would find it a nuisance. I don't really have any strong feelings about the issue with regards to game balance.

 

However, aesthetically, I really think pre-buffing should be in the game. If I can throw a fireball at an innkeeper and steal his pantaloons, or summon a Pit Fiend in his kitchen, why can't I randomly bless the ground or buff someone's elemental resistance?

 

As far as I know, there's no lore based explanation for the limitation. It's just an arbitrary restriction on player freedom in order to enhance game balance / discourage degenerate behavior. A lot of people care about that (I read the gigantic debate thread about it a while back), and that's cool. I just think it's silly to restrict spellcasting so artificially in a singleplayer game.

[Tanred]

Pre-buffing was such a tedious activity in IE games and NWN 2 that I am really glad it is gone.

[prodigydancer]

He wants it to cost the player to buff up when they could be fighting.

This may work if buffs are powerful enough to make a difference but generally "no pre-buffing" means you want to rely on passives instead of buffs. In a hard fight spending time on buffs is a luxury you can ill afford. And in an easy fight buffs are superfluous.

Edited October 6, 2014 by prodigydancer