Sensuki's Suggestions #022: Show Derived Stats during CC Attribute Selection

[Sensuki]

This one is pretty self explanatory but the static derived combat stats need to be shown in the character creation screen, either in their own window or in the attribute toolbox, but a floating window that's always visible after you pick a class would be better.

 

Here's a really terrible mspaint mock up for them being shown in the attribute toolbox

 

 

_{(and no I don't have vsync on, I have a 120Hz monitor and that's 60 frames of poor performance in the character creation screen)}

 

Previous Suggestions:
Talents and Feats
Inventory Mockup v2
Desynchronized Character Movement
Version Review v278 bb
Cultural Gear Selection
Navmesh for AoE Targeting
Animations & Model Collision
Inventory Mockup
Dyrford Crossing Area Design
Main HUD Mockup
Beta Version Review v257 bb
Fog of War
Inventory & Item Tooltips
Combat Feedback Comparison 
Re-wrote CC Class Ability Descriptions
Item Descriptions and Contextual UI Rant
Area Map Functions 
Main UI Tooltip Stuff 
Selection Circles and Targeting 
Vertical Sync

[IndiraLightfoot]

It's a must and a given. This is indeed needed, and I won't rest till we get it.

[Matt516]

Initially thought it was a great idea, but then I realized: most attributes (Might, Dex, Intellect, Perception, and Resolve) wouldn't have some (or any) of their boni shown if this were implemented. Might and Dex would be especially affected by this. So this could very easily lead to those who aren't familiar with the game and its systems (i.e. everyone not in the BB or closely following it) having considerable confusion as to the value of various attributes. Some would have immediate feedback at the bottom there, while others would have none whatsoever.

 

And if you say "let's just add all those stats into the display then" - well, then you end up with a display showing bonus damage/healing, action speed, range, accuracy, endurance, health, AoE, concentration, durations, and all 4 defenses. That's 10 different parameters to display. Too busy, plus many are still shown as percentages which does nothing to clear up the "non-intuitive" problem.

 

Nah... IMO the values shown when mousing over the attributes are enough. Clean and clear, with just a few parameters per mouse-over. Easier to understand. YMMV of course, but my vote is a no on this one. It's fine how it is, just requires a quick mouse-over to see each set of boni.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Matt516

[Sensuki]

That's a fair point, although it would be nice to at least show the defenses.

 

Pretty sure Obsidian is trying to avoid obfuscation of mechanics, but PE does not do a very good job (actually worse than the IE games in many respects) showcasing what you get from stuff, and what things do.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

D&D CRPGs always had that problem of showing some, but not all, Matt. I actually like more info, and even select info, an assorted collection, where stuff like AoE etc are sorted out. I don't mind that.

[DCParry]

What if a tool tip for the mouse-over reflected the contribution of particular stats to the derived values? This seems like it might things more transparent, and give multiple sources of information in that you could see the primary stat contributions on mouse over/tool tip pop-up (which includes both derived stat contribution as well any independent effects) and also mouse over the derived stat to see the source of the score. 

[swordofthesith]

This one is pretty self explanatory but the static derived combat stats need to be shown in the character creation screen, either in their own window or in the attribute toolbox, but a floating window that's always visible after you pick a class would be better.

 

Here's a really terrible mspaint mock up for them being shown in the attribute toolbox

 

 

_{(and no I don't have vsync on, I have a 120Hz monitor and that's 60 frames of poor performance in the character creation screen)}

 

 

 

+1. Great idea Sens. I hope the Devs consider it.  

[IndiraLightfoot]

D&D CRPGs always had that problem of showing some, but not all, Matt. I actually like more info, and even select info, an assorted collection, where stuff like AoE etc are sorted out. I don't mind that.

Heh, I meant "left out", not "sorted out".

[swordofthesith]

Initially thought it was a great idea, but then I realized: most attributes (Might, Dex, Intellect, Perception, and Resolve) wouldn't have some (or any) of their boni shown if this were implemented. Might and Dex would be especially affected by this. So this could very easily lead to those who aren't familiar with the game and its systems (i.e. everyone not in the BB or closely following it) having considerable confusion as to the value of various attributes. Some would have immediate feedback at the bottom there, while others would have none whatsoever.

 

 

Hey Matt! Good point! What if the Devs integrated both levels of feedback during character creation? They could implement Sens recommended derived values icons beneath attributes and would retain the detailed feedback per attribute when a player mouses over them. 

[Sensuki]

Well some of the values are dependent on another factor as they are a percentage. 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

This one is pretty self explanatory but the static derived combat stats need to be shown in the character creation screen, either in their own window or in the attribute toolbox, but a floating window that's always visible after you pick a class would be better.

 

Here's a really terrible mspaint mock up for them being shown in the attribute toolbox

 

 

 

It would be even better if it was like the D&D character builder where every time you select something, Class, Race, Attributes, equipment, ANYTHING, the values would change. Here's an example from the character builder.

 

When I select my class, it already shows my defences based on that class. Then it asks me to select my race.

 

 

 

Rogue class showing stats for AC, Fort, Will, Ref

 

 

 

 

I decide to select Human and the stats change.

 

 

 

Selecting Human changes the stats of Fort, Ref and Will.

 

 

 

 

Next is my attributes.

 

 

 

Time to assign attributes.

 

 

After assigning attributes, my defences for AC, Fort, Ref and Will change again.

 

 

 

 

 

And it does the same when you equip items. This is all before you start adventuring. So I'm all for having defences shown at character creation.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Sensuki]

I absolutely agree, I just didn't want to do a too radical design because I'm not sure how much effort they want to put into the CC screen but yes a window with all the values shown would be much better.

 

I also much prefer the vertical character creation to horizontal.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Sensuki

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Also, one of the good things about the D&D character builder is when you get near the end of creating your character and decide you want to change your race to something else, you just click on the second option (Race) at the side and change your race. Just a simple click with the menu option at the side and change it. And everything is updated including your defences. In PoE, you have to click back through about five screens to get back to race.

 

I'd like to see a menu option to the side something like below: 

 

Fairly crappy MS paint job, but you get the idea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You still click 'Next' to save your selection and to go to the next part of character creation, but can go back and click on any menu option at the side to change anything you want..

 

Also, the D&D builder changes colour with the options on the left when you complete one of those options. And the D&D builder allows you to skip different parts and you can go to the end and work back if you want. It's very flexible. I think if PoE could do the same, it would be pretty cool. Skip Attributes and go to culture if you wanted to go to culture. And then go back to Attributes. The D&D builder allows you to skip attributes and skills and you can go to powers and feats and then back to attributes and skills. It doesn't force you to go through the numbered steps in order. You can even select race (second option) before class (first option). Or even assign your Attribute points before selecting a Class and race.

 

This is what happens when you select Attributes first before a class. The Skills, Powers and Feats are shaded out. Once you select Class, they become available.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Sensuki]

I'm bored so I'll do a mock up for fun.

[Sensuki]

I've figured out the issue with derived stats!

[Seari]

I'm fine with how it is, actually I'm against this suggestion.

[archangel979]

Wasteland 2 made their character creation show you all bonuses you will gain by raising or lowering attributes. You can even easily check what you get by raising it from 2 to 10 if you wanted. This is good for new players as it shows them how the system works and what they get. 

 

PoE should have something similar.

[Captain Shrek]

This is a great idea. Transperency is always good in character creation. So when re you taking that new job over Sensuki?

[AlekzanderZ]

Seriously, they should get rid of the character doll for that part and use the space for stats or descriptions. Same goes when you're leveling up. Also, the stats who's influenced by the attribute should be highlight. That way we can clearly see what influence what.

Edited September 30, 2014 by AlekzanderZ

[illathid]

Regarding the la k of feedback for Might, couldn't you put the equipped weapon's damage range in CC as well? That could be helpful too if you're making culture choices based on equipment.

[Hormalakh]

I've figured out the issue with derived stats!

care to share?

[Sensuki]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68827-sensukis-suggestions-023-revamped-character-creation-mockups/

[Fiebras]

... wait shouldt this be merged with this: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68827-sensukis-suggestions-023-revamped-character-creation-mockups/  ?

 

Like I said in the other thread, yes to having Health, Endurance, Deflection, Accuracy, and all those other values visible in a way you can see the chages a non-intrussive way.

 

On the other hand they already put a lot of effort into the character creation screen and the diferences in atributes between each class and such are detailed in the descriptions.

Many IE games didnt show you all the useful information during character creation as well which was also a problem.