Drama in indy gaming and games journalism

[JadedWolf]

http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/25/gamergate-an-issue-with-2-sides/

 

That's a great article, thanks for sharing.

 

[Ganrich]

No worries. Keep in mind that techcrunch was also writing pretty one sided (anti-GG) articles throughout September. This is one where they don't. I think it is interesting that they may have pulled away from the rest of the pack on how they cover it.

 

It may be a first step in the GG movement getting some objective press within the tech media outside of bloggers, former journalists, anonymous devs, and youtubers. If a few more do this we may see this issue swing the other way. I really enjoyed this article though. I will have to keep my eyes open for Allum Bokhari's future articles.

 

Tadhd Kelly wrote the 2 earlier articles that were pretty damning of GG. In the article The #Gamergate Question they say this:

 

There’s the very real possibility that #gamergate will end up breeding a kind of cultural acid test, much as when the Tea Party types started doing the RINO thing. Counter-reformation movements often do, first starting at a grass roots level where they go unnoticed and then attempting to build a consensus through co-ordination. Their thinking is often that the middle is a ground to be won through deception even if their core positions are contradictory. (And they really are: You can’t expect a “fair” media if you also demand that it only “represent” you).

 

Imagine, for example, if some reviewer voices or sites emerged that certified games based on whether they are #gamergate-kosher or not. Imagine if #gamergaters became more co-ordinated on Kickstarter, sending mass objectionable-content reports against games that didn’t fit their cultural barometer. Imagine if they actively took down some game makers’ games by hacking their computers and deleting their work. None of these are far-fetched scenarios and some of them have already begun to happen.

 

It sounds trivial but this is the sort of thing that could actively set the industry, the medium and indeed games themselves back by decades. If we get into a situation where the far right has to be constantly kowtowed-to and wields outsized influence then there will come a point where the choice for game makers is only core or casual, conservatives or mainstream, and the opportunity for a diverse middle ground of experimentation would go away. It’s Destiny or Candy Crush and that’s all.

 

I for one think we need to do more to prevent that.

http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/07/the-gamergate-question/

 

I would like to say that the consumers having a say in products is not a bad thing, IMHO. I don't understand how it is better to have the media filter this, and I dare say it is worse. A small group of journalists with ideology in mind shouldn't have that say. Consumers should always have the say in what gets purchased, but the problem is that we are being filtered. How can you buy a game when you never hear/read about it? So, you buy Fez instead, but not necessarily because it is better but because you are aware of it. The Fez/IGF situation is really a good example of why I think media shouldn't be the source of what should be bought. I should buy it because it won awards because the people giving the awards had invested in it? But not when these real consensus among consumers is that the game is good and maybe the message as well... I think this is an example of how generalized the gaming consumer has become in the media's eyes as we aren't capable of making that decision ourselves so they have to do it for us.

 

If we want to argue that certain things need to change in the portrayal of minorities and women then it shouldn't be because the media filtered it, but that those that believe this become developers and do it. Maybe rally the publishers to do something new, but never should a review railroad a game because they don't agree with the message or the artist. Responsibility here isn't the media's but the creator's. If the change is needed then consumers will support it. How many controversial books would have been forgotten if this media existed throughout history? These books are controversial, but that allows us to discuss them, and it allows us to learn things about the writer and ourselves in the process. If they were never mentioned to us then they may get lost in the noise. All because someone, or a few someones, didn't like the message.

 

The new Steam system has me finding all sorts of interesting little games that weren't covered by this media, and I realize that they can't cover them all. However, certain games in the Indie scene get a whole lot of press, and others get none. It is strange. I think the new steam interface is pretty cool myself. I am sure others feel differently. I almost feel like this system may make the media even less relevant, but we will see.

 

I believe the GG movement will dissipate after the major media outlets somewhat defanged. So I think this worry is truly a scare tactic, and ironic since the media is already doing exactly what they are rallying against. Tropico 5 getting a 6.5 because the writer didn't like the message is an example. GG may keep going until certain figureheads(Ben Kuchera and Leigh Alexander in particular) are ousted from their jobs.

[Lexx]

Didn't read everything, but this Tadhd Kelly... So GamerGate duders are the "far-right" now?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Didn't read everything, but this Tadhd Kelly... So GamerGate duders are the "far-right" now?

I was under the impression like all gamers they were dead.

[Hiro Protagonist]

So how many people on this forum don't support gamergate and/or notyourshield? Seems like a lot of SJW's on the net have an issue with it from what little I've read.

[BruceVC]

I believe the GG movement will dissipate after the major media outlets somewhat defanged. So I think this worry is truly a scare tactic, and ironic since the media is already doing exactly what they are rallying against. Tropico 5 getting a 6.5 because the writer didn't like the message is an example. GG may keep going until certain figureheads(Ben Kuchera and Leigh Alexander in particular) are ousted from their jobs.

 

 

I also thought that article was a good read. Do you think that GG caries the influence to get someone like Leigh Alexander fired or  ousted from her job. Because I would find that strange considering the support she has? Do you think people outside of GG really care what GG says or thinks should happen to certain gaming journalists?

[kirottu]

http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/25/gamergate-an-issue-with-2-sides/

 

That was excellent read.

 

In other news... well, actually it's still the very same news. TFYC is still being attacked by anti-GG side:

http://socialjusticeviv.tumblr.com/post/98412304682/the-fine-young-capitalists-arent-actually-helping 

 

TFYC reply:

http://thefineyoungcapitalists.tumblr.com/post/98422490495/a-response-to-social-justice-viv

 

It really boggles my mind how these self proclaimed SWJs and feminist keep attacking an attempt to get more women in gaming industry. It really is, really, just what that TechCruch report said. Their own politics have become more important than ACTUALLY helping women.

[Volourn]

"Apparently other considered options were male abuse shelters and prostate cancer. It sounds definitely like 4chan thought it’d be a laugh to give their profits from a feminist game jam contest about getting women into the industry to services specifically targeted towards men. So, just keep that in mind the next time 4chan tries to abuse that goodwill."
 

They finally admitted it. Feminism isn't about equality. It's about helping women and making things better for woman. Men don't matter. They're just scumbag racists. HAHAHA!

[Ganrich]

@Bruce - I agree with you, actually. I don't think it will happen, but I think many in GG are pretty determined. I have really been cruising the hangouts, twitter, and Facebook and the movement *hates those 2 the most. There is a rumor (so definitely take it with a giant grain of salt) that Rock Paper Shotgun is down to 2 sponsors. If a few of these media sites start dipping the bean counters may have no other choice but to start cutting people as a sacrifice to appease the monster that is GG. The people that have stirred the audience the most are likely the most at risk... At least IMHO. It is still a huge "IF," and not likely.

 

edit: *hate* is probably too strong a word, and it is different from person to person.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Ganrich

[BruceVC]

@Bruce - I agree with you, actually. I don't think it will happen, but I think many in GG are pretty determined. I have really been cruising the hangouts, twitter, and Facebook and the movement hates those 2 the most. There is a rumor (so definitely take it with a giant grain of salt) that Rock Paper Shotgun is down to 2 sponsors. If a few of these media sites start dipping the bean counters may have no other choice but to start cutting people as a sacrifice to appease the monster that is GG. The people that have stirred the audience the most are likely the most at risk... At least IMHO. It is still a huge "IF," and not likely.

 

That's very interesting and I would like to understand how true the impact that something like GG has had on the appetite of sponsors on a website like RPS which I support.

 

Personally I would be surprised if GG has any influence  at all. And its not because GG doesn't have some good points. Its the actual perception that exists around GG, and corporations and sponsors general avoid things that are dismissive of social justice issues, like inclusivity. And I'm not saying this is what GG is about, this is just the perception that exists for some about GG

 

But this discussion needs to be  had around the facts, so I'm very keen to read any links (not Twitter comments ) that explicitly state that " company X is now making a public statement that it now supports GG and has decided to not  advertise on RPS" ( this is just a simplified example, I am just looking for something similar  )

 

It should be easy to find because companies are normally very vocal when they need to make marketing changes around  there company image and who they support. Especially when they realize they made a bad call in the past

 

I'll dig around and see what I can find. I'll start on RPS

[TrashMan]

So how many people on this forum don't support gamergate and/or notyourshield? Seems like a lot of SJW's on the net have an issue with it from what little I've read.

 

I only support myself and my opinions.

 

I refuse to fall in line with movements led by people I know nothing about, using tactics I don't approve of and generally being a mangled, tangled, non-transparent mess of conflicting ideas, ideals, emotions and agendas.

[pmp10]

So how many people on this forum don't support gamergate and/or notyourshield? Seems like a lot of SJW's on the net have an issue with it from what little I've read.

I certainly don't.

Both sides in this war have embraced extremist views and resorted to disgusting behaviors.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

So how many people on this forum don't support gamergate and/or notyourshield? Seems like a lot of SJW's on the net have an issue with it from what little I've read.

 

I certainly don't.

Both sides in this war have embraced extremist views and resorted to disgusting behaviors.

 

 

Me neither. In addition to the already stated complaints, the conflicting sides also go completely ass-backwards about accomplishing their purported goals.

[JadedWolf]

I support publishers who make games I like. With my wallet.

 

I do not support gaming websites that annoy me by trying to force opinions on me. By not visiting them.

 

That's all.

[Nonek]

As i've said before, i'm watching and judging. So far I don't believe it's fair to cite Gamersgate as radicals, they're just gamers whom seemingly are sick of years of preaching, condemnation, corruption and unethical behaviour, from an industry that's basically not fit for purpose. They're making a stand because of years of frustration, as well as the mass condemnation of millions as sexists, racists and homophobes by a self righteous group of fascists. Of course some right wingers have hopped on the cause, but I don't think anybody is naive enough to not realise their agenda.

 

The social justice fascists have proved their mettle to me with their censorship, dictatorial pronouncements, outright hatred and contempt for anybody not of their clique, and of course their self righteous belief that they know how to make better games than industry veterans such as Obsidian. Their contempt for the audience is astounding, and their threats have actually been acted upon. I shudder to think of gamings futures if it is dictated by these single minded, hateful and unethical fascists, cliched plots, blatant moralising and preaching, no real life issues ever raised, and subtlety and nuance utterly abandoned.

 

The trolls whom have been allegedly abusing some people, well i've yet to see them actually do anything other than talk. The abuse is obviously very hurtful for some whom are very internet heavy users, but most moderates like us ladies and gentlemen have roundly condemned such practises, and we are not our brothers keepers or interested in that adulterous woman whom sparked this debate (can't remember her name,) or any other sort of abuse.

[pmp10]

So you consider yourself a moderate but keep calling your opponents fascists.

Also 'just a few trolls' excuse works for your side but not for the enemy.

I'm scared to think what hardcore supporters look like.

[Nonek]

So you consider yourself a moderate but keep calling your opponents fascists.

Also 'just a few trolls' excuse works for your side but not for the enemy.

I'm scared to think what hardcore supporters look like.

 

Opponents? I wasn't aware I had any, barring me good lady wife of course. I still don't buy into the binary mentality.

 

I only call fascist the social justice people who are acting in a fascist manner, preaching, demonising, hate mongering, and censoring. Typical fascist behaviour. It's not a blanket term like gamer, but a specific condemnation of a band of extremists who have outplayed the original few trolls, and unlike them are actually acting rather than just threatening.

 

There are still some respectable moderate critics out there, who are not pursuing a fascist agenda, Eric Kain, John Bain etcetera. I do not condemn these gentlemen for the actions of the sjf's.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Nonek

[Fighter]

 

http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/25/gamergate-an-issue-with-2-sides/

 

That was excellent read.

 

In other news... well, actually it's still the very same news. TFYC is still being attacked by anti-GG side:

http://socialjusticeviv.tumblr.com/post/98412304682/the-fine-young-capitalists-arent-actually-helping 

 

TFYC reply:

http://thefineyoungcapitalists.tumblr.com/post/98422490495/a-response-to-social-justice-viv

 

It really boggles my mind how these self proclaimed SWJs and feminist keep attacking an attempt to get more women in gaming industry. It really is, really, just what that TechCruch report said. Their own politics have become more important than ACTUALLY helping women.

 

 Funnily enough the girl who won is a feminist. Just a brief scroll down through her twitter to before this thing has her saying all the same things they usually say.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

 

http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/25/gamergate-an-issue-with-2-sides/

That was excellent read.

 

In other news... well, actually it's still the very same news. TFYC is still being attacked by anti-GG side:

http://socialjusticeviv.tumblr.com/post/98412304682/the-fine-young-capitalists-arent-actually-helping

 

TFYC reply:

http://thefineyoungcapitalists.tumblr.com/post/98422490495/a-response-to-social-justice-viv

 

It really boggles my mind how these self proclaimed SWJs and feminist keep attacking an attempt to get more women in gaming industry. It really is, really, just what that TechCruch report said. Their own politics have become more important than ACTUALLY helping women.

Funnily enough the girl who won is a feminist. Just a brief scroll down through her twitter to before this thing has her saying all the same things they usually say.

TFYC is a feminist group. IMO, TFYC represents a much better way to achieve more representation in videogames than the SJWs do as they are actually making a game instead on stomping their feet and demanding games be made to their specifications.

[Blarghagh]

[Meshugger]

[Ganrich]

I will side against anyone that tries to point to art as causation for human imperfection. The arguments in use didn't have a leg to stand on when Joe Lieberman, Hillary Clinton, and Jack Thompson all tried to prove that video games caused violent behavior. Now we have people saying that these tropes and story elements cause mysoginistic views and perpetuate sexism. The argument still has few legs to stand on. To try and use censorship and bullying to suppress the backfire made it worse, and in my eyes show the true colors of those involved. Humans are imperfect, but their art shouldn't be judged and filtered based on any specific ideals. Art ceases to be art when you have outside forces putting specific messages and ideas in the product... It starts becoming a pulpit for that ideology.

 

Gamergate have some extremists as well. I don't agree with their actions anymore than I do with the gaming media or their extremists. The attacks from both sides are horrible, and i condemn them. However, I would say that the GG crowd has continuously condemned these people while the media hasn't even covered their own whackos. Their silence on this shows me they don't care as long as they succeed. They do not care if they ruin someone's life as long as they succeed in pushing this agenda. They also don't care if minorities and women are attacked as long as they meet their goals. They preach tolerance and inclusivity until someone disagrees then the gloves are off.

 

A gay man gets a syringe in the mail, a black man loses his job, and women are harassed but it is ok as long as the media is the moral compass in the end... As long as the media doesn't discuss these incidents it is like they never happened. Plus, these people disagreed so they deserve their harassment. Pointing out moral shortcomings is only allowed against cis white males, those that disagree, and/or those that ask questions about ethics in journalism because of suspicious relationships.

 

Ironically, I have a few forums I frequent. The reason that I hang around here more than the others is because I feel this group is more tolerant of differing views than many others. Things get heated much less often, and name calling is rare. Discussion happens very frequently here. That is important to me. In most forums there is a lot of "I am right. You are an idiot." I feel discussion is important because no viewpoint is universal among humans. Understanding and debating those views need to happen, but name calling an censoring because someone disagrees with you... is terrible. It is the byproduct of a person, or group, that believes their viewpoint is (or should be) universal, and thank god we are all different and that isn't the case. Our differences is what makes us human.

 

I do agree with some of the goals GG are supporting: transparent media, ethics, and so on. If the media brings politics into gaming and starts filtering games then we all lose. Whether they filter indie via coverage or If they cause a change in the AAA way of things we lose the ability to tell a series of stories because of politics. This isn't about liberal vs conservative to me. This is about extremism. However, I don't see the majority of GG people as extremists, but there are a few. Perhaps the movement is somewhat tainted by those extremists, but no more than the media, and almost every group, movement, political party, etc has extremists. I won't damn entire groups because of the few. I do see pushing agendas through the media, whether well intentioned or not, as extremist. Coordinated articles across competing sites, hatefule responses to readers, and silent consent of harassment are extremist.

 

I started this post with the intent of saying I a more anti-media in this than pro-gamergate. However, I am a GG supporter as it turns out. They aren't perfect, but I think the movement existing is for the good of gaming. I feel like this is a "power to the people" situation at the moment. I support the people.

[Fighter]

I lived, albeit briefly, in a place where entertainment was "socially responsible". It was called the Soviet Union.

 

Apart from the known to everyone political censorship there was no cussing in movies, almost no graphic violence, nearly no "objectification" of anybody, and only "good" moral messages. A solid nurturing environment. It was great...

[Blarghagh]

Daniel Vavra lived there too and he made the same comparison.

[Ganrich]

"Those who cannot remember history are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana