Drama in indy gaming and games journalism

[Bryy]

 

.... what?

 

 

 

I'll explain what I meant for those didn't understand what I meant.

 

Video Game developers should create whatever game they want to create. Whether the focus is to make money or just create something cool should be up to them. Developers don't need SJW's trying to pressure them into creating a game based on the values they are currently promoting.

 

Everything is about money. It is the lifeblood of any industry.

 

And inclusion never hurt anyone.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

http://techraptor.net/2014/10/01/gamasutra-intel/

 

Interesting. The media is going bananas with "Intel hates women" and "I'm never buying Intel again" tweets. I hope those media guys don't use Apple computers because they are stuck. Lol

I suppose they could always use AMD....but AMD.

[Longknife]

http://techraptor.net/2014/10/01/gamasutra-intel/

 

Interesting. The media is going bananas with "Intel hates women" and "I'm never buying Intel again" tweets. I hope those media guys don't use Apple computers because they are stuck. Lol

 

 

If GamerGate wants to amount to anything, THIS is how it needs to be done.

 

I'd advise any of you who're serious about this to look into which companies run ads on which journalism websites you disagree with and send a complaint letter. If the journalists refuse to let the people talk, then let money talk for you.

 

 

And on that subject, anyone know of or can suggest a company to write that sponsors sites like this?

 

 

I hope those media guys don't use Apple computers because they are stuck.

 

 

Feminists? Counter-culture "rebels" buying a product that long ran on a campaign of "think differently" and directly targeting the hipster mentality of being cooler and better even though it's less widespread than Microsoft?

 

I'd dare say you'll struggle to find one that doesn't use Apple.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Longknife

[Lexx]

Am I the only one who likes to see this finally ending? The stupidity in all of this annoys the hell out of me, and truth told, we all know that nothing will change because of it. Sadly I can't even ignore it, because this talk is everywhere and it is like a car accident. You really don't want to look, but in the end you still do.

[Longknife]

Here everyone, have a Bonus Pretzel, courtesy of boingboing-dot-net:

 

 

 

A sprawling and rancorous knot of hashtagged rage, Gamergate is ostensibly a campaign against journalistic corruption, but comprises mostly of foot-stamping misogynist anger directed at developer Zoe Quinn, critic Anita Sarkeesian, and game journalists seen to be in cahoots with a feminist conspiracy to censor manly videogames. Quinn, author of interactive roman à clef Depression Quest, was targeted after an angry ex-boyfriend published a lengthy manifesto about her that falsely insinuated sexual quid pro quos with game journalists. Sarkeesian ran a successful crowdfunding campaign that raised $158,922 for a series of feminist video critiques, a popular installment of which was released last month. Each woman has since been subjected to an endless hum of menace online and off, with Quinn receiving abusive phone calls, having her websites hacked, and enduring her personal information being published online. Sarkeesian received a death threat that convinced her to flee her home.

The email complaint campaign, however (dubbed Operation Disrespectful Nod), was one of the crusade's more civilized tangents. Targeting advertisers who partnered with major game sites Kotaku, Polygon, Rock Paper Shotgun, and Gamasutra, it took aim at journalists who were critical of the Gamergate cause.

Though it also attracted everyday gamers attracted to the anti-corruption messaging, Gamergate's broad appeal--if not its volume--began to shrink when the involvement of well-organized online trolls was exposed and conservative culture warriors pushed a more explictly anti-feminist agenda. The move by Intel--a key player in the computer game industry--represents a coup for a cause that seemed to be on the verge of shriveling.

 

 

DAT NON-BIAS OPINION THO

 

 

 

 

 

 

Am I the only one who likes to see this finally ending? The stupidity in all of this annoys the hell out of me, and truth told, we all know that nothing will change because of it. Sadly I can't even ignore it, because this talk is everywhere and it is like a car accident. You really don't want to look, but in the end you still do.

 

 

On the contrary: what Intel did is proof it CAN change things.

 

The simple fact of the matter was explained when this little GamerGate movement was still young: Journalists attacked their customers. This is suicide. If McDonald's were to greet every customer by slapping them and spitting in their eye, yknow who profits? Burger King. For GamerGate to not have an effect would essentially be gamers bending over and taking the improper treatment from a service they don't need, they don't like (we've long known they're corrupt) and that they don't have to support.

 

  All GamerGate has to do is:

 

A) All supporters should continue boycotting the websites with clear bias. Do NOT click links leading to articles from their website.

 

B) Write advertisers like Intel and let them know you're both disgusted by the opinions voiced by said website and you'll absolutely avoid said website at all costs because of it, alongside possibly throwing in a line about how you're disappointed in the advertising company for supporting such a website.

 

 

It's legit that simple, and that's why this can change things. I would be inclined to agree with you that nothing would change if it would require people to act. But seeing how Step 1 is to....not do anything? To NOT visit websites we've long known to be corrupt? Well, that's pretty friggin' easy, now isn't it?

Edited October 2, 2014 by Longknife

[Ganrich]

@Longknife - I think you are safe contacting "any" AAA publisher (including MS and Sony). Nintendo doesn't use the media anymore so do want you will there. Also, I believe AMD probably uses them, as does Nvidia, and I have seen Newegg before as well. Anyone else I am unsure about.

 

It is a solid victory. I just hope Intel doesn't flip flop. If the AAA publishers are indeed afraid of another "Farcry 4 cover art" debacle or something similar then right now is the time to contact the media with intent to pull ads. The more these companies stand together the more likely major changes will occur.

[Lexx]

 

Am I the only one who likes to see this finally ending? The stupidity in all of this annoys the hell out of me, and truth told, we all know that nothing will change because of it. Sadly I can't even ignore it, because this talk is everywhere and it is like a car accident. You really don't want to look, but in the end you still do.

 

 

On the contrary: what Intel did is proof it CAN change things.

 

Actually, I don't think this is a good change. I mean, what has happened now? Lots of people writing messages to Intel so they pull their advert from the website. You like it, because you didn't liked the message of the website. It could have been the other way around too, though. With this action you are just silencing the guys who's opinion you don't like, because they probably need to money to stay online. So as far - as I've understood - it's exactly what the "SJWs" are doing. This doesn't help the issue, imo.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Lexx

[Ganrich]

@Lexx - except the action of contacting their ad providers may not have occurred if discussion was allowed from the start. It is funny because many of the GG crowd have been calling for discussion, but the media has been name calling and censoring their sites instead. It could have gone either way... You are right about that, but the conversation was never on the table. If it had been then this may not have occurred. I won't agree that GG is silencing the opposition because they are doing the only thing in their power because the conversation wasn't allowed on any major game media site (save the Escapist), nor was it allowed on Reddit, and it was eventually a ban-worthy offense on 4chan. The conversation wasn't allowed by the establishment in almost every major gaming discussion forum. The GG people were willing to have it initially, but were left very few options to do so.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Ganrich

[Longknife]

Garnish essentially answered your question for you.

 

No one has a problem with SJWs voicing their opinions. If people like Anita want to point at the people who post troll comments on her vids (or would, IF you could comment) and claim obviously people do, I'm sorry, but that's called the Internet and EVERYONE has to endure "harassment" in that regard.

 

So no one with an inch of seriousness has a problem with SJWs voicing their opinion and how they want things. People DO have a problem with being silenced and told to shutup as though their opinion is invalid or some form of hate speech when it's not. I've posted in these threads since the first one, and not once have I said something disrespectful to women. This is not hate speech, this is a serious opinion about gaming journalism and art censorship. What essentially sparked GamerGate was a suggestion of censoring games alongside an attitude of silencing any opposition or any statements asking for answers from perceived corrupt parties.

 

 

 

What I ultimately expect to happen...? Websites like techraptor will spring up and take over on the gaming journalism market. REALISTICALLY I expect the already established websites (at least most of them) to realize their ship is sinking and change their tune before that happens, but in the wake of it all I do expect to see new websites pop up. To give you an idea, read the techraptor article, then read the little snippet of text I quoted from boing boing. Techraptor openly welcomes SJWs and welcomes them to use the same methodology to get advertisers on their side, boing boing is so ungodly bias it's ridiculous.

 

The simple fact of the matter is this: you cannot tell me with a straight face that SJWs outnumber GamerGate supporters. This simply isn't the case, because if that were the case, this never would've gone this far. Techraptor's attitude is to let the people determine how we want our journalism to be. Vote with your voice and with your wallet. Ultimately, yes, the market will show bias towards one side over the other, but it will be an environment where BOTH sides are 100% welcome to openly voice their opinions, at the very least.

[Orogun01]

There is no lack of contempt by the gaming media when it comes to dealing with their audience, they have been dismissing criticism for years. I'll grant that some of the angrier voices have little merit but that was no excuse to ignore genuine concern just because the believe that controversy generates clicks. They are right of course but now those clicks seem to be going somewhere else.

I think I will play Tina Turner while I browse the Escapist, I don't know why.

[BruceVC]

@Longknife - I think you are safe contacting "any" AAA publisher (including MS and Sony). Nintendo doesn't use the media anymore so do want you will there. Also, I believe AMD probably uses them, as does Nvidia, and I have seen Newegg before as well. Anyone else I am unsure about.

 

It is a solid victory. I just hope Intel doesn't flip flop. If the AAA publishers are indeed afraid of another "Farcry 4 cover art" debacle or something similar then right now is the time to contact the media with intent to pull ads. The more these companies stand together the more likely major changes will occur.

 

I'm confused, how is this a victory for GG? I would think a victory is people actually supporting the GG movement and not just being concerned about it?

 

 Your article clearly says

 

 

"However, nowhere in this email does it say, or even imply, that Intel supports the GamerGate movement. Anyone who says so is reading more into the email than what is there. At most, this is Intel trying to stay out of the way as the controversy surrounding GamerGate seems to continue growing.

The most some can take away from this is that Intel sees this as a significant issue and controversy because they obviously looked into the issue before sending this email. Whether they agree with GamerGate or not is still up for debate, though Intel’s likely best course of action is to remain neutral to not invoke the ire of any group interested in GamerGate"

[Ganrich]

It is a warning to the media to not insult their ad sponsor's customers though. They haven't taken a Pro-GG stance, but they have taken a Pro-consumer one. They removed their ads as they don't support the site writing an article that could be a perceived attack on their cash flow. I find it equally important, personally.

 

That was always the issue with the "Gamers are dead" articles. They are anti-consumer. You can piss off a small group of people and probably get away with it. Companies do that all the time. The problem is the media didn't know how many people would react to the article in a negative way, and as such were hasty and irresponsible in publishing those articles. They definitely didn't think about Intel when they did it.

 

Intel may be pro or anti GG, or they could be anti-censorship, but most likely just don't like broad strokes cast against their current or potential future customers. Either way they pulled funding, and it is related to this situation in one way or another.

[BruceVC]

It is a warning to the media to not insult their ad sponsor's customers though. They haven't taken a Pro-GG stance, but they have taken a Pro-consumer one. They removed their ads as they don't support the site writing an article that could be a perceived attack on their cash flow. I find it equally important, personally.

 

That was always the issue with the "Gamers are dead" articles. They are anti-consumer. You can piss off a small group of people and probably get away with it. Companies do that all the time. The problem is the media didn't know how many people would react to the article in a negative way, and as such were hasty and irresponsible in publishing those articles. They definitely didn't think about Intel when they did it.

 

Intel may be pro or anti GG, or they could be anti-censorship, but most likely just don't like broad strokes cast against their current or potential future customers. Either way they pulled funding, and it is related to this situation in one way or another.

 

Okay I think I get it, so fundamentally you guys are opposed to the fascist and dismissive nature of feminists and others trying to influence gaming websites and impacting on free speech with there own narrative of social justice issues. But as long as GG is able to implement a similar change using the same strategy as the hated feminists  and force sponsors to leave websites that you don't like that is considered a solid victory?

Glad you cleared that up

 

What is the end goal of GG? That every website that ever supported Zoe, Anita or raised a feminist issue should close down due to lack of sponsor support ?

 

Free speech is awesome, as long as it aligns with your views

Edited October 2, 2014 by BruceVC

[kirottu]

http://techraptor.net/2014/10/01/gamasutra-intel/

 

Interesting. The media is going bananas with "Intel hates women" and "I'm never buying Intel again" tweets. I hope those media guys don't use Apple computers because they are stuck. Lol

 

My new computer is going to have an Intel processor. 

[kirottu]

 

It is a warning to the media to not insult their ad sponsor's customers though. They haven't taken a Pro-GG stance, but they have taken a Pro-consumer one. They removed their ads as they don't support the site writing an article that could be a perceived attack on their cash flow. I find it equally important, personally.

 

That was always the issue with the "Gamers are dead" articles. They are anti-consumer. You can piss off a small group of people and probably get away with it. Companies do that all the time. The problem is the media didn't know how many people would react to the article in a negative way, and as such were hasty and irresponsible in publishing those articles. They definitely didn't think about Intel when they did it.

 

Intel may be pro or anti GG, or they could be anti-censorship, but most likely just don't like broad strokes cast against their current or potential future customers. Either way they pulled funding, and it is related to this situation in one way or another.

 

Okay I think I get it, so fundamentally you guys are opposed to the fascist and dismissive nature of feminists and others trying to influence gaming websites and impacting on free speech with there own narrative of social justice issues. But as long as GG is able to implement a similar change using the same strategy as the hated feminists  and force sponsors to leave websites that you don't like that is considered a solid victory?

Glad you cleared that up

 

What is the end goal of GG? That every website that ever supported Zoe, Anita or raised a feminist issue should close down due to lack of sponsor support ?

 

Free speech is awesome, as long as it aligns with your views

 

 

If a company claims their demographic is dead then they are going to go out of business. It has nothing to do with free speech. It is economics 101.

[Volourn]

"What is the end goal of GG? That every website that ever supported Zoe, Anita or raised a feminist issue should close down due to lack of sponsor support ?

 

Free speech is awesome, as long as it aligns with your views"

 

I want them destroyed.

 

I'm bigoted against bigots and feminists are bigots.

 

I'm pro speech but I'm anti anti speechers.

 

They can still say whatever they want.Nobody is stopping them from doing so.

 

But, if you are going to spam hateful, evil, nazilike statements in 2014, you gotta realize that most 2014ers hate nazis.

 

\The 'feminists' are not pro speech. They aren't even pro female. They're pro power, pro slavery, pro control, pro evil and pro money.

 

They can call me a rapist white man but me? I call myself a gamer.

 

*goes back to playing WL2*

 

 

SUCK ON THAT SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS!

Edited October 2, 2014 by Volourn

[TrashMan]

Well, things are certainly getting out of hand.

 

Get this - I just got my posting right removed in a Gen Desc forums on Kerberos Forums. Why? Because I said that all those people posting death and rape threats are overly-emotional idiots and kids, but that their "threats" are ultimatively empty and there's no reason to take them seriously at all. After all, on the internet it's normal to deal with trolls and silly (and awful) posts and threats.

That was enough to mark me as horrible human being apparently.

 

I love Kerberos and the games they make, but some of their staff just have a massive chip on their shoulders (and an ego that would shame Seito Kaiba)

[Ganrich]

@Bruce

 

Sorry, the media had a chance to promote free speech by allowing dialogue. They chose to not do so. If you don't believe that people you disagree with have a right to speak then you don't believe in free speech. If you censor people that you disagree with you cannot complain when there is a chance you will be silenced. They won't lose their ability to speak in any case, but they might lose a podium or 2. They aren't being silenced, but losing their megaphone. BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

They decided to lock down almost every major discussion thread and call their (and their sponsor's) customers names both on their websites and on social media. I said it further up thread, but I will repeat it. When you stop allowing people who disagree with you to have a voice they get trapped into a corner. You can say GG is hypocritical all you want, but you conveniently forget what caused GG to contact ad sponsors in the first place. They were silenced and demeaned on a massive scale by the media that they are suppose to consume news from. You are blaming dynamite for exploding and ignoring the guy holding the match.

 

Honestly, I could give a rat's *** whether they are feminists or not. I don't like anti-consumerism. I don't like agenda pushing from the media. I don't like nepotism. I don't like the lack of transparency. I don't like the call for inclusiveness from a group of people that have demonized a certain group of people. The argument for their shenanigans is that "all game journalists do it" and that argument is that of a 6 year old that folded to peer pressure. Grow a spine media folk, and say "I won't be like the rest." I don't want a group of people that can't even hold their profession's ethical standards sactrosanct preaching to me about morals and ethics. Everyone makes mistakes, and eventually is a hypocrite given time. However, I can forgive and forget when someone owns up to their mistake. However, people that silence those that point out their mistake, stick their fingers in their ears and blow a raspberry at those pointing it out, or say "everyone else does it" I have little use for because they obviously haven't learned or don't care.

 

If they wanted discussion they could have had it, but they didn't and they don't. I won't feel sorry that they made that bed and now it looks like the sun is setting which usually indicates bedtime.

[pmp10]

It's odd that Intel would change their policy just now.

Sponsor mailing has been going on for weeks.

I wonder if they will stand by this when the backlash hits.

[BruceVC]

"What is the end goal of GG? That every website that ever supported Zoe, Anita or raised a feminist issue should close down due to lack of sponsor support ?

 

Free speech is awesome, as long as it aligns with your views"

 

I want them destroyed.

 

I'm bigoted against bigots and feminists are bigots.

 

I'm pro speech but I'm anti anti speechers.

 

They can still say whatever they want.Nobody is stopping them from doing so.

 

But, if you are going to spam hateful, evil, nazilike statements in 2014, you gotta realize that most 2014ers hate nazis.

 

\The 'feminists' are not pro speech. They aren't even pro female. They're pro power, pro slavery, pro control, pro evil and pro money.

 

They can call me a rapist white man but me? I call myself a gamer.

 

*goes back to playing WL2*

 

 

SUCK ON THAT SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS!

 

Volo I'm extremely disappointed in your post, I always thought you believed in free speech. But it appears you don't.

 

Its not going to happen but lets say all advertisers  due to pressure from GG do pull out from a website like Gamasutra and they close down (as I said its highly unlikely but lets say it happens)

 

Basically what you are advocating is because a website doesn't believe what you believe it should be put out of business. This is fascism and hubris  of the worst degree, how are you going to sleep at night knowing you support an organisation (GG) that is so intolerant ? I don't agree with radical feminists but  I don't think there websites should be closed down just because of what they believe

[BruceVC]

It's odd that Intel would change their policy just now.

Sponsor mailing has been going on for weeks.

I wonder if they will stand by this when the backlash hits.

 

I am also keen to see what transpires, I expect we will see some sort of official statement?

[Longknife]

 

"What is the end goal of GG? That every website that ever supported Zoe, Anita or raised a feminist issue should close down due to lack of sponsor support ?

 

Free speech is awesome, as long as it aligns with your views"

 

I want them destroyed.

 

I'm bigoted against bigots and feminists are bigots.

 

I'm pro speech but I'm anti anti speechers.

 

They can still say whatever they want.Nobody is stopping them from doing so.

 

But, if you are going to spam hateful, evil, nazilike statements in 2014, you gotta realize that most 2014ers hate nazis.

 

\The 'feminists' are not pro speech. They aren't even pro female. They're pro power, pro slavery, pro control, pro evil and pro money.

 

They can call me a rapist white man but me? I call myself a gamer.

 

*goes back to playing WL2*

 

 

SUCK ON THAT SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS!

 

Volo I'm extremely disappointed in your post, I always thought you believed in free speech. But it appears you don't.

 

Its not going to happen but lets say all advertisers due to pressure from GG do pull out from a website like Gamasutra and they close down (as I said its highly unlikely but lets say it happens)

 

Basically what you are advocating is because a website doesn't believe what you believe it should be put out of business. This is fascism and hubris of the worst degree, how are you going to sleep at night knowing you support an organisation (GG) that is so intolerant ? I don't agree with radical feminists but I don't think there websites should be closed down just because of what they believe

What he's advocating is democracy, and by no means does this process hinder free speech. Hell, it promotes it.

 

 

It's very simple: GG and SJW both write the companies with their concerns. But the reality of the matter is that GG outnumbers SJW by a clear undeniable mile. The companies, being companies, review all the emails and quickly realize the majority of their consumer base opposes such websites and thus they all pull advertising, both because they wish not to be associated with them and because it's not profitable to remain.

 

 

This is how the collective voice of the people will actually be heard, since the journalists themselves have been unwilling to represent both sides.

 

No one's freedom of speech is being harmed. The only thing being harmed is websites and journalists who would house such one sided, self-promoting and inaccurate views of the entire situation. The journalists themselves are still free to voice said opinions, they just won't be able to expect a paycheck for them any longer.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Longknife

[JadedWolf]

It really depends on how you do it, Bruce.I think it's perfectly reasonable to boycot companies that support causes you don't agree with by funding them with advertisement money. That doesn´t constitute censorship, that´s just using your rights as a consumer. 

 

Censorship is if you are crying out to the government to forbid them.

[Longknife]

It really depends on how you do it, Bruce.I think it's perfectly reasonable to boycot companies that support causes you don't agree with by funding them with advertisement money. That doesn´t constitute censorship, that´s just using your rights as a consumer.

 

Censorship is if you are crying out to the government to forbid them.

It's ABSURD to argue this is censoring the SJW's freedom of speech. The fact of the matter is those gaming journalists are being paid to have opinions. UNPOPULAR opinions. Society pays people it considers valuable for valuable work, and no, society does not value those journalists, at least not for that quality of work. They are more than welcome to continue running a blog or whatever and voice their opinions more, but will they be paid for the opinions anymore? No, just like you and me, they won't get paid a cent for their opinions.

 

 

To call this an attack on their freedom of speech is basically implying that somewhere out there, some guy is running a website for the KKK and talking about how much he hates black people, and we're all denying him his freedom of speech because we don't fund his website. Hell, everyone in this chat is being denied their freedom of speech cause none of us are sponsored.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Longknife

[Blarghagh]

I'd take it one further and disagree with the claim that gaming journalists are being paid to have opinions. Gaming journalists are there to be make assessments, not give opinions. It's what seperates journalists from enthousiasts. While assessments can be informed by opinions it should be based on fact first and foremost and when the assessment is informed by opinion it should be specified as such and it should not be passed off as fact. If they are not able to make this distinction, they are not doing their job as journalists and why should they be paid for a job they are not doing?