How to Fix the Attribute Design in Pillars of Eternity Part 2

[Rosbjerg]

Old Thread here.

 

 

 

 

Mostly played a ranger so far, so I know what your talking about.
Fighters seemed ok to me, I believe Josh said that different classes will have different levels of skill needed to play them, if any class should be "low skill" then its the fighter. that'll be a discussion for another thread though.

I don't think he said 'skill.' I think he said 'maintenance.' Fighters are lower-maintenance than, say, wizards, meaning you can basically park them and have them auto-attack, and they'll mostly do fine.

Your totally right on that one. with up to 6 party members you don't want to have to micro manage every single one of them, or at least most people wont.

 

 

Not sure if it's been suggested already (it's a long topic), but what about making Perception more appealing by having it shify by a little the miss/graze/hit/critical?
Let's say 0.3% per point of perception, so that 18 Perception gives a 4.5% shift, which especially in fights against high deflection enemies can make a difference (but it's just an example, the 0.x% would just depend on balance etc.).

This way, we'd have Perception influencing search, interrupts but also indirectly influencing accuracy (let's say the 'quality' of your hits) while staying separate from the influence on defense that dexterity has. And I guess influence on the quality of the hits would work also lore-wise (and it could even influence the graze/hit/critical part, leaving the difference between miss and graze to dexterity, or the hit/critical part only).

This, and having Resolve also influence the duration of negative effects (as already suggested by several) would take some steps forwards for the no-dump-stats goal, I guess. Maybe. I don't know, really.

 

[Ineth]

Old Thread here.

Can someone please explain to me what's up with this whole "closing a long thread and starting a new one in its place" thing? I've observed it lots of times here (Obsidian forums), but never understood the point of it, and I don't see anything like it in other forum communities I visit.

• Is it occupational therapy for mods so they have something to do and can feel useful?

   

• Is it a cargo-cult continuation of a principle that may have once (under difference circumstances) served an actual purpose?

   

• Is there someone in the admin team who has a clinical phobia vs numbers higher than 30?

The problem is, that it disrupts discussions by making it impossible to use the "reply with quote" functionality on posts that happen to be in the now 'closed off' part of the discussion. Not to mention that it adds to the overall entropy of the forums and makes them more difficult to navigate.

 

 

/rant

[Matt516]

If the number of pages rises above 30 the anti-spirals come and destroy the forum.

[Gfted1]

Its not page count, its 500 posts. When they reach that limit we close them and open a new one because Obsidian asked us to do it like that. In the cases that a comment spans two threads and must be quoted, just press the quote button for that particular comment and copy the whole thing to the new thread. We all have to work together to get through these trying times.

[Ink Blot]

They used to close long threads on the old BioWare forums as well. Something to do with slowing down the search functions and the forums. Or something like that. Not sure if that's the reasoning here though.

[Nyamiou The Galeanthrope]

A thread of 500 posts is never 500 good arguments, it's full of trolls, ego-centric and close-minded posts, it doesn't mean the discussion has to stop but just that it should start fresh with people talking only about the main subject of the thread (and not responding to trolls, ego-centric and close-minded posts). Also a long thread tend to draw too much activity to it and since no one will have the courage to read everything in them it just harm the forum activity for nothing.

[Fiebras]

Lets get back on the rails:

 

I keep getting slightly miffed at people still confusing Might with just physical STR. Is not the same thing, stop arguing like it is. High Might =/= muscles it is more than that.

 

I would like to ask Obsidian to change the name "atributes" into "SOUL atributes" to better illustrate what they are suposed to be.

Athletics is your physical attribite/skill, sorta, if you want a stat thats related to your physical prowess go with that.

 

I needed to get that nitpick off my chest.

[Matt516]

Eh, I mean... "Soul Attributes" seems a bit clunky. IMO it would be better to just have some sort of paragraph right before the Attribute selection screen (or on it) that gives a bit of lore background on what Attributes actually are in PoE's world.

[mutonizer]

I keep getting slightly miffed at people still confusing Might with just physical STR. Is not the same thing, stop arguing like it is. High Might =/= muscles it is more than that.

 

I needed to get that nitpick off my chest.

 

Agreed. Hopefully PoE designers will hear you and finally stop making random non sentient mobs with no soul have high Might just so they can do high damage!

 

 

[Fiebras]

Eh, I mean... "Soul Attributes" seems a bit clunky. IMO it would be better to just have some sort of paragraph right before the Attribute selection screen (or on it) that gives a bit of lore background on what Attributes actually are in PoE's world.

You can have glowing blue magic veins with neat animations in the UI for the Atributes. Thats enough explanation about them being special. Subtlety. Chic.

 

But yeah I think changing the atribute explanations just a bit would at least prevent people and reviewers from thinking Might makes Muscle Mages. (Everyone knows its Might + CON that makes a Muscle Mage, then again almost every class is a Mage at this point).

 

 

 

I keep getting slightly miffed at people still confusing Might with just physical STR. Is not the same thing, stop arguing like it is. High Might =/= muscles it is more than that.

 

I needed to get that nitpick off my chest.

 

Agreed. Hopefully PoE designers will hear you and finally stop making random non sentient mobs with no soul have high Might just so they can do high damage!

 

 

 

mutonizer everyone knows wolves and beetles have a soul in this setting. Youre being silly. Stop being silly!

[Matt516]

 

I keep getting slightly miffed at people still confusing Might with just physical STR. Is not the same thing, stop arguing like it is. High Might =/= muscles it is more than that.

 

I needed to get that nitpick off my chest.

 

Agreed. Hopefully PoE designers will hear you and finally stop making random non sentient mobs with no soul have high Might just so they can do high damage!

 

 

 

 

I mean, there's no reason it can't boost all damage and make sense to be high for large mobs. We tend to assume it's the Might of your soul; maybe Might is like Strength but in PoE the power of your magic is tied to the power of your body? That wouldn't exactly be a revolutionary idea, plenty of fantasy settings do it that way (just not D&D).

 

Just saying... I'm not entirely sure what your criticism was with that comment haha, but it it was a dig at the supposedly inconsistent mechanics/lore of the Might attribute, it's not like that's an unsolvable issue.

[mutonizer]

Lol Matt.

 

And yes it was just a friendly dig.

Personally I learned to accept it as a totally abstract balancing mechanic disconnected from everything else. It's just a stat that gives bonus, nothing else. I don't like it, but not gonna fight it though I do like to poke here and there when I see people trying to give it some logical explanation within the context of PoE.

[Matt516]

Lol Matt.

 

And yes it was just a friendly dig.

Personally I learned to accept it as a totally abstract balancing mechanic disconnected from everything else. It's just a stat that gives bonus, nothing else. I don't like it, but not gonna fight it though I do like to poke here and there when I see people trying to give it some logical explanation within the context of PoE.

 

What's illogical about Might being representative of strength and magic drawing power from physical strength?

[Razsius]

 

Lol Matt.

 

And yes it was just a friendly dig.

Personally I learned to accept it as a totally abstract balancing mechanic disconnected from everything else. It's just a stat that gives bonus, nothing else. I don't like it, but not gonna fight it though I do like to poke here and there when I see people trying to give it some logical explanation within the context of PoE.

 

What's illogical about Might being representative of strength and magic drawing power from physical strength?

 

 

Yea that certainly *would* come from you Matt wouldn't it.  What else can one expect from a guy with Alex Louise Armstrong as his avatar.  After all Might is passed down through the Armstrong line for generations .

Edited September 23, 2014 by Razsius

[Fiebras]

 

Lol Matt.

 

And yes it was just a friendly dig.

Personally I learned to accept it as a totally abstract balancing mechanic disconnected from everything else. It's just a stat that gives bonus, nothing else. I don't like it, but not gonna fight it though I do like to poke here and there when I see people trying to give it some logical explanation within the context of PoE.

 

What's illogical about Might being representative of strength and magic drawing power from physical strength?

 

 

I wish we had an actual STR stat just so I could say "I wish we had spells that are based on STR so I could make a proper Muscle Wizard". They would be touch-range spells that required a to-hit check of course. Armstrong´s spellcasting always involved punching something in some way. Thats why hes the best.

[Matt516]

 

 

Lol Matt.

 

And yes it was just a friendly dig.

Personally I learned to accept it as a totally abstract balancing mechanic disconnected from everything else. It's just a stat that gives bonus, nothing else. I don't like it, but not gonna fight it though I do like to poke here and there when I see people trying to give it some logical explanation within the context of PoE.

 

What's illogical about Might being representative of strength and magic drawing power from physical strength?

 

 

Yea that certainly *would* come from you Matt wouldn't it.  What else can one expect from a guy with Alex Louise Armstrong as his avatar.  After all Might is passed down through the Armstrong line for generations .

 

 

Exactly. The original "muscle wizard".  * *   * * 

Edited September 23, 2014 by Matt516

[Elerond]

Every living and some nonliving (constructs, some weapons, buildings, materials, stones, pools of blood left behind by strange rituals, etc. things in Eora has soul or soul energy to bounded in them. If there would be enemy that didn't have soul it would be quite bad for ciphers as their magic is based on manipulation souls of their enemies (or friends).

 

And stronger bodies can channel more raw soul power through it, where intelligent mind is more capable to control that power and tied it on place for longer time. I don't see what is so hard to craps in these concepts. 

[Lephys]

Wait... if interrupt is still in, but it's no longer being affected by stats... what if it was simply the duration or extent of interrupts that was affected by a stat, and not the percentage chance of their occurence? Wouldn't that be a lot easier to work with?

 

I mean, if interrupt is a thing, and it's affectable by anything, you'd think you'd want to allow it to be "build"able (either sacrifice interruptibility, or boost it, voluntarily, with choices to your character's build) in some capacity.

 

It'd be strange to have this field of stat-influenced factors, with this weird Interrupt monolith standing in the middle, being the lone stranger. *shrug*

 

(brief tangent alert):

 

I mean, there's no reason it can't boost all damage andmake sense to be high for large mobs. We tend to assume it's the Might of your soul; maybe Might is like Strength but in PoE the power of your magic is tied to the power of your body? That wouldn't exactly be a revolutionary idea, plenty of fantasy settings do it that way (just not D&D).

I accept that, as long as, in the world's lore, a physical action is always employing "magic" (soul power/what have you... more than just muscle contraction), and vice versa. The single-stat "problem" is more of an issue with technical distinction/ruleset reference in RPGs. For example, if something prevents you from using magic, but you're still able to move around and exert physical force with your muscles, then how are you doing that, and how do you measure your ability to do that as separate from your magic/soul power if not with two different attributes?

 

Just for what it's worth.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Lephys

[Silent Winter]

^because it's a one-way distinction?  Muscles allow magic but not magic allows muscles.  Need for physical strength to channel magical energy, but those muscles still operate as regular muscles too.  The lore isn't so much that magic and muscles are the same force, just that using magic is physically demanding.

It just disallows the frail old powerful wizard archetype (except insofar as said wizard has greater control (INT) but lower power (Might) )

[wpmaura]

long story short I think having a damage stat is dumb, I just do not like might tying into how powerful spells are. I huge hulking idiotic barbarian who is capable of bending steel with his pink toe can also launch a firegball that can take out half the city, this lore and ruleset bugs me.

Edited December 9, 2014 by wpmaura

[Quetzalcoatl]

long story short I think having a damage stat is dumb, I just do not like might tying into how powerful spells are. I huge hulking idiotic barbarian who is capable of bending steel with his pink toe can also launch a firegball that can take out half the city, this lore and ruleset bugs me.

It makes perfect sense that having a physically stronger body allows you to channel stronger magics. There is no rule saying magic should work the same in every setting.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Emperor Pen]

long story short I think having a damage stat is dumb, I just do not like might tying into how powerful spells are. I huge hulking idiotic barbarian who is capable of bending steel with his pink toe can also launch a firegball that can take out half the city, this lore and ruleset bugs me.

 

Why do you think a hulking barbarian can launch fireballs? Might determines soul strength, not physical strength. They are just uncorrelated in PoE, so you can be a physically tough Mage (high Athletics) or a wise, yet weak Mage (high lore) or whatever.

[Lephys]

long story short I think having a damage stat is dumb, I just do not like might tying into how powerful spells are. I huge hulking idiotic barbarian who is capable of bending steel with his pink toe can also launch a firegball that can take out half the city, this lore and ruleset bugs me.

Actually, he can't, because he's not a Wizard. 8P

 

It bugs me, too, though.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Lephys

[wpmaura]

 

long story short I think having a damage stat is dumb, I just do not like might tying into how powerful spells are. I huge hulking idiotic barbarian who is capable of bending steel with his pink toe can also launch a firegball that can take out half the city, this lore and ruleset bugs me.

 

Why do you think a hulking barbarian can launch fireballs? Might determines soul strength, not physical strength. They are just uncorrelated in PoE, so you can be a physically tough Mage (high Athletics) or a wise, yet weak Mage (high lore) or whatever.

 

 

then what determines physical strength, I understand having constitution or and endurance trait tied to magic because its physical draining but not physical strength, It still utterly dumbfounds me why there got rid of strength and created a damage attribute.

 

its a flawed idea, why have attributes to begin with, just give us damage, accuracy, mana and acall it a day.

[Lephys]

Why do you think a hulking barbarian can launch fireballs? Might determines soul strength, not physical strength. They are just uncorrelated in PoE, so you can be a physically tough Mage (high Athletics) or a wise, yet weak Mage (high lore) or whatever.

Exactly. But if Might determines non-physical strength, then nothing is actually measuring physical strength. Meaning, you can have a 6-year-old boy with a really strong soul, and he'll do a lot of damage swinging a sword. So, it's not so much that "it doesn't matter if you're strong, or just magically potent, ^_^", but there's a physical aspect of characters going completely unmeasured or represented, really.

 

What about people who have really weak souls, but are really physically strong? Do they exist in the world? Or does everyone do everything with soul power? They don't even actually use their muscles. They just telekinetically move their own limbs using soul energy?

 

I really find the "all-in-one Might" stat troubling, conceptually. BUT, it really isn't that big of a deal, when it comes to the game. Functionally, it will work similarly, even if it doesn't make perfect sense. If you have higher Might, there will be things you can do (checks and whatnot) that you couldn't do if it was lower. And, it will affect your "power" in general. So we miss out on physically weak, soul-fully strong warriors, and physically weak but magically potent mages, etc. I can live with that.

 

But, I still don't understand people acting like it makes sense. It really doesn't, if you think about it. It's a 10 piece puzzle, and it's missing a piece. No matter how you turn the existing pieces, there's a hole in the puzzle.