A Positive Video: Josh Sawyer and Pillars of Eternity

[Sensuki]

Yep, definitely check it out guys - make sure you give it at least four episodes before you decide whether you like it or not.

[archangel979]

 

Rectify is ****ing awesome. I do enjoy both Rectify and GoT, however I also believe it to be much more better and significant than GoT.

Absolutely. Treading new ground here as far as television goes.

 

EDIT: OK, let me try once more. To YOU Rectify is better. To random Joe, Jack or Jill it is Game of Thrones. To another person it might be CSI X.

In 10 years time when another person looks at the IMDB pages they will not care about what you exactly think or what I think or any one person but what the average score is.

It seems to me that to you the most popular = the best. This is not the case with anything.

Nope. But I value numbers over emotions of single person. Most popular would be if I rated things by sales numbers. Average score is not a measure of most popular.

Neither is Titanic or Avatar on top of IMDB list and GTAIV and LOL are not on top of metacritic.

[GreyFox]

You haven't been coming off as harsh or mean spirited or anything what sissies were saying that?

 

Should have told them to put their big boy/girl pants on and learn to deal with opposing opinions.

It's pretty easy to tell when you are messing around and or having some fun with it like when you say "that's bull**** wtf is that"...in those cases you aren't literally giving them the business it's that you see the humor in it as well and non stuck up people understand what you're doing....

[PrimeJunta]

Watched it. Find it puzzling that some people have been taking issue with your criticism. You've been universally constructive as far as I can tell, perhaps allowing for the extremely occasional lapse.

[TheNationer]

You haven't been coming off as harsh or mean spirited or anything what sissies were saying that?

 

Should have told them to put their big boy/girl pants on and learn to deal with opposing opinions.

It's pretty easy to tell when you are messing around and or having some fun with it like when you say "that's bull**** wtf is that"...in those cases you aren't literally giving them the business it's that you see the humor in it as well and non stuck up people understand what you're doing....

Nah, negativity without positivity is only a critique if there is literally nothing positive in what you're critiquing - which is not the case here. The acknowledgment of the good ideas is AS important to maintain the direction of a game as the highlighting of the bad ideas - you don't have to be a 'stuck up person' to agree with that.

 

Sensuki did the right thing by showing both sides to his opinion on the lead designer (Josh) and on the state of the game, because being behind the curtain at Obsidian and making something comparatively pretty niche deserves credit from those fans of the Infinity Engine games. Other developers have cash grabbed and moved onto more popular forms of game, and some of those on Kickstarter have managed their games notably poorly, and yes, Obsidian are a company and Josh is doing what he's employed to do, but they are doing it how I wish more would. Bravo.

Edited September 18, 2014 by TheNationer

[Pray]

I never once thought you've come of harsh - if anything you seem passionate about a critical discussion of the game.

[Leferd]

Josh if nothing else, has consistently shown to be meticulous in thinking through his design decisions and has always been forthright in his interactions with fans and critics.

 

He may not have the same cachet of Chris Avellone or the resume of James Ohlen - but from the outside looking in, I wouldn't prefer anyone else to be the Project Director of Eternity, for many of the same reasons as outlined by Sensuki.

[Lasweetlife]

If anyone except Sawyer was in charge, we would be looking at a release date in December...2016.

 

The way I look at it, the criticisms currently being made, given the nature of beta testing, are actually a good sign, in multiple ways. Given the huge scope of the game, I am actually happy that most of the criticisms I have had and heard are relatively concentrated and fixable. The relative absence of criticism of the quality of the art, writing, and "feel" (outside of combat), means those things are pretty much on point and is a testament to his project management and direction. When the game is shipped, we can all sit back and praise the art and writing to death. For the time being, the goal is to critique every piece that needs fixing so that when the game ships, it will be the best game possible. I'm 98.6758% sure that Sawyer knows that and doesn't take offense at the criticisms.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Lasweetlife

[GreyFox]

 

You haven't been coming off as harsh or mean spirited or anything what sissies were saying that?

 

Should have told them to put their big boy/girl pants on and learn to deal with opposing opinions.

It's pretty easy to tell when you are messing around and or having some fun with it like when you say "that's bull**** wtf is that"...in those cases you aren't literally giving them the business it's that you see the humor in it as well and non stuck up people understand what you're doing....

Nah, negativity without positivity is only a critique if there is literally nothing positive in what you're critiquing - which is not the case here. The acknowledgment of the good ideas is AS important to maintain the direction of a game as the highlighting of the bad ideas - you don't have to be a 'stuck up person' to agree with that.

 

Sensuki did the right thing by showing both sides to his opinion on the lead designer (Josh) and on the state of the game, because being behind the curtain at Obsidian and making something comparatively pretty niche deserves credit from those fans of the Infinity Engine games. Other developers have cash grabbed and moved onto more popular forms of game, and some of those on Kickstarter have managed their games notably poorly, and yes, Obsidian are a company and Josh is doing what he's employed to do, but they are doing it how I wish more would. Bravo.

 

 

Huh?

He wasn't...he's constantly been constructive as well as providing both negative and positive sides to various parts of the game.

 

Not really sure what your response was about especially paragraph two since no one said anything about that.

[Guest]

Holy crap...Sensuki posted something nice...

[Gromnir]

Josh if nothing else, has consistently shown to be meticulous in thinking through his design decisions and has always been forthright in his interactions with fans and critics.

 

 

there is limits. the limits is understandable, but...

 

the monte cook version o' the 3e ranger incident is illustrative. josh were forthright 'bout advocating the monte cook version o' the ranger for iwd2. he were forthright about how wotc responded to the bis request to use the monte cook ranger.

 

...

 

some folks know rest of the story. others don't. am not gonna add anything beyond fact that josh forthrightness were understandably limited by the situation. 

 

making games is a business. these boards is useful advertising space... generate hype and anticipation. a useful side benefit of the boards is that obsidian, and josh in particular, uses the boards to interact with the fans. even so, am thinking folks who post frequent get a fanciful notion 'bout their contributions and impact. is only a very small number o' regular posters compared to total potential purchasers and obsidian cannot be making a game just for boardies. if/when josh forthrightness and interactions become something other than beneficial to the business, somebody else will step in to give him advice. no doubt josh is mature enough to take good advice even when he don't like it.

 

making games is a business. being forthright can be bad for business. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 18, 2014 by Gromnir

[TheNationer]

Huh?

He wasn't...he's constantly been constructive as well as providing both negative and positive sides to various parts of the game.

 

Not really sure what your response was about especially paragraph two since no one said anything about that.

Did you really see much positivity in the 'review' video? I don't see much, it was centred around bugs and game mechanics that needed changing, rather than those that he didn't want removed/he couldn't see improving - I'm sure there was some positivity somewhere, but not much. That's not anything against Sensuki particularly, but more of an issue with general vocalisations so far. I still have very little idea of which mechanics forum participants particularly like, because criticism is much more likely to fuel a comment than praise - but I'm sure if they get changed we will hear about them, like the pirate gun for instance, which I think was actually Sensuki. (Not picking on him, promise)

 

Paragraph 2 was an addition to the conversation, not a response to you, and was relevant to the positivity being spoken in support of Josh Sawyer + the game he leads. This thread + video by Sensuki has been pretty productive in showing support for the development team, which is often swamped by people's polls on how major mechanics need complete 180s.

Edited September 19, 2014 by TheNationer

[makryu]

I'll be the devil's advocate and say that I find metacritic useful. Whenever I gain access to a new console, I use it to search the game library. I learned through the years that I almost certainly won't like anything with a score below 60. Between 60 and 70 It's pretty much down to how much I like the genre, or if it has a strong story based on overly simplistic or broken gameplay. Above 70 it's probable I'll at least like the overall experience if the game's broad characterization (plot outline, basic gameplay mechanics) interests me. Outliers are games I read about that might attract me in a very particular way despite being "bad" and AAA hype trains which I'll have to discount. I'll usually read two or three reviews, both critics and user ones, with disparate scores, to get an overall feeling.

 

I must say I was rarely disappointed with this method. I don't follow it blindly, and I very rarely decide amongst these previously selected games which I'll play based on some having higher scores than others. But metacritic is useful to me in that way.

 

On topic, I think OE has experienced developers who have been through a lot. I'm sure none of them will pull a Phil Fish on us, and on the long run the feedback they receive of their games is probably much more positive than negative.

[aeonsim]

...

And frankly I'd much rather have a beer with him than most of the people upset at his personality.

 

...

Yeah definitely, talking to someone creating a vision is a whole lot better than trying to talk to someone whining about how it doesn't match their vision. At least one is doing something the other is just bitching about entitlement issues, and should get off their rear and try doing something about it, be it a properly worked alternative system design or the beginnings of a mod to fix the issue.

Edited September 19, 2014 by aeonsim

[Ganrich]

Good video, Sensuki. People have trouble with criticism, and seem to see it as bashing. It isn't though. It is necessary to be honest with the devs to make the game the best it can be, and it keeps the devs on their toes. The devs need to hear it, and understand that they cannot be lax at this point in the game. I feel all of your critiques have been evenhanded, and there is no malice or bickering tone in your posts. You have given incredibly positive criticism. You haven't jumped into any thread screaming, "The sky is falling!" All the while you have shown incredible due diligence in your critiques.

 

I think Josh is incredibly intelligent and talented, and he knows how to explain things to people to help them understand his reasoning in the decisions he makes. Albert Einstein said, "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." Josh has explained things going on in PoE's dev cycle in incredibly simple ways to make them understandable by the uninitiated. I think Josh is truly passionate about games, and I believe passion is incredibly important when creating art of any kind. Passion puts heart and soul into the product.

 

EG - Joss Whedon and the cast loved Firefly. That is where the charm came from. The show exudes charm, and that is because they all loved it and worked hard to make it the best it can be. Another show that had this was Cheers. Everyone wanted to be there because they loved it, and it shows in the final product. I feel that way with Obsidian as a whole. They love RPGs and it shows.

 

The Codex... I will preface this by saying I am not a part of that community. However, when the Wasteland 2 beta released there was a huge amount of hate and disappointment levied at it. Some deserved, and some not. A lot of people dismiss that it is beta. This is because of a few reasons such as many betas are glorified systems tests/marketing ploys. They don't care about the tester's opinion on how systems work, but only that they work. They also are using it like a demo to lure people to buy the product on launch (much more an issue in the FPS and MMO genre). Also, people feel they are ignored because their advice may have gone unheeded. Now, we have PoEs beta, and guess what? It ain't perfect, and some systems have had some controversial designs. The game was sold to a group of very fundamentalist RPG players, but has some very progressive systems. Some people can deal with it, and others go on the warpath.

 

Anyway, I am getting off my soap box. I enjoy your criticisms, Sensuki. Keep them coming.

 

Also, I guess I got to watch Rectify now. I am a GRRM fan so I like Game of Thrones, but it isn't nearly on the level of his books IMHO.

[GreyFox]

 

Huh?

He wasn't...he's constantly been constructive as well as providing both negative and positive sides to various parts of the game.

 

Not really sure what your response was about especially paragraph two since no one said anything about that.

Did you really see much positivity in the 'review' video? I don't see much, it was centred around bugs and game mechanics that needed changing, rather than those that he didn't want removed/he couldn't see improving - I'm sure there was some positivity somewhere, but not much. That's not anything against Sensuki particularly, but more of an issue with general vocalisations so far. I still have very little idea of which mechanics forum participants particularly like, because criticism is much more likely to fuel a comment than praise - but I'm sure if they get changed we will hear about them, like the pirate gun for instance, which I think was actually Sensuki. (Not picking on him, promise)

 

Paragraph 2 was an addition to the conversation, not a response to you, and was relevant to the positivity being spoken in support of Josh Sawyer + the game he leads. This thread + video by Sensuki has been pretty productive in showing support for the development team, which is often swamped by people's polls on how major mechanics need complete 180s.

 

 

Not seeing a problem here...

 

Not much good would come from a community full of yes men who just love every mechanic simply because niche game is niche and I for one won't just accept it nor be happy with it just because it's a throw back to the "good ole days". It very much needs to live up to what it claims to be.

 

And thank god for some of the changes and mechanics that got a 180...more hopefully will follow...including individual stealth as an example.

Personally I love the feedback from the Devs but make no mistake they are totally fine with this type of feedback as opposed to backlash after the fact and the realization they put in mechanics everyone hates.

 

The devs may totally love something but if no one wants it or will use it there isn't much sense in keeping it around which is where some of these discussions go and then more often there is a sort of compromise.

 

This is the part of the game development process where they need as much feedback as possible and most of that is going to be what sucks or doesn't work or look right...it's not that surprising really...and certainly is par for the course for something like this.

 

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Well after Sensuki mentioned Rectify I checked it out.

 

It's really good, you should watch it as soon as you have some time to kill. IMO, not quite as good as True Detective, but is easily one of the coolest TV shows oh there. Moving on to season 2 tomorrow.

[TheNationer]

Not seeing a problem here...

 

Not much good would come from a community full of yes men who just love every mechanic simply because niche game is niche and I for one won't just accept it nor be happy with it just because it's a throw back to the "good ole days". It very much needs to live up to what it claims to be.

 

And thank god for some of the changes and mechanics that got a 180...more hopefully will follow...including individual stealth as an example.

Personally I love the feedback from the Devs but make no mistake they are totally fine with this type of feedback as opposed to backlash after the fact and the realization they put in mechanics everyone hates.

 

The devs may totally love something but if no one wants it or will use it there isn't much sense in keeping it around which is where some of these discussions go and then more often there is a sort of compromise.

 

This is the part of the game development process where they need as much feedback as possible and most of that is going to be what sucks or doesn't work or look right...it's not that surprising really...and certainly is par for the course for something like this.

1) That's a strawman argument, I didn't once imply the need for 'a community full of yes men', I said that positivity was as worthy of mention as negativity - especially with all the changes going on so that they don't take the good out, and so that they enhance what is good about particular classes

 

2) There have not been many 180s on main mechanics. The largest change will be of that in attributes, which will get tweaked thanks to Sensuki and Matt's paper - which didn't have any mention of the words 'bull****', 'awful' or 'stupid' from what I remember. An example of good critique and an entirely worthwhile assessment.

 

3) I said myself that most comments would be negative, its the emotional/aggressive tone of some commenters that ruin worthwhile ideas with hyperbole + unnecessary confrontation. It's like wading through a normal forum, and I think that we can all agree that we're no normal forum. #Elitism #PillarsOfElitism

Edited September 19, 2014 by TheNationer

[Shevek]

I do think that there should be more discussion around what is working well. Coming from a teacher, criticism and praise are both useful in helping establish understanding.

[Sensuki]

It's really good, you should watch it as soon as you have some time to kill. IMO, not quite as good as True Detective, but is easily one of the coolest TV shows oh there. Moving on to season 2 tomorrow.

After you watch all of Season 1 and Season 2 you might change your opinion on that. I liked True Detective as well and I thought episodes 1-5 were perfect but it fell down in episode 6-8. While still good, I think those were a bit disappointing even if they had some great moments.

 

I have had one moment of disappointment in Rectify and that was due to the direction of an episode, the director did not quite get the best acting performances out of many scenes (S02E09) and if they were just a little bit better it would have been awesome, but that's just IMO. Other than that I can't find a fault really. Whereas in True Detective it was the writing that caused the problems (which is usually the case).

Edited September 19, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

I do think that there should be more discussion around what is working well. Coming from a teacher, criticism and praise are both useful in helping establish understanding.

 

To me the most obvious thing is the writing. Quests seem to have both reactivity and choice and consequence, which is good. Character Art is better than I expected overall. I think some of the system design is turning out well (attack resolution, for instance) and the amount of choice between weapons and armor is really good.

 

That's only a small list and it's not absolutely everything but pretty much everything else could do with some improvements. The game needs to hit higher targets in combat and exploration feel and tighten up it's User Interface screens to be more usable and uniform. Those are the main areas that need improvement in broad strokes.

[Monte Carlo]

1. Your videos aren't even remotely negative. In fact, by internet gaming community standards they are carved from shimmering blocks of integrity and fairness.

 

2. So fair play to you.

 

3. Sawyer's fans are a strange bunch. They seem to worship the man. If they are sending you PMs I suggest you publish them on this thread so we can all laugh at them.

 

4. Apples and oranges. Comparing an immensely popular fantasy-soap with a slice of gloomy Southern Gothic tells us only that apples and oranges taste differently.

 

5. Carry on.

[Sensuki]

Rectify isn't gloomy o_o

 

I don't know why it's called a southern gothic either, there's nothing remotely gothic about it! 

Edited September 19, 2014 by Sensuki

[Monte Carlo]

TV Tropes is your friend.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SouthernGothic

[Sensuki]

 

Yep, that's definitely not Rectify haha. It's southern though!

Edited September 19, 2014 by Sensuki