Drama in indy gaming and games journalism part 2

[Blarghagh]

 

Not a big fan of that cartoon myself as it does misrepresent women as all being hardline fems who would say something like that. I appreciate what it's trying to do but the punchline is pretty rude and unhelpful.

 

I much prefer this one as it is much closer to what I've seen a couple of hundred times in the last few days: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/823/986/b4c.jpg

 

Not posting the picture itself because of language rules.

 

That cartoon tries to diminish the act of rape, its in very bad taste and offensive.

 

 

I don't think that's what it's doing. As mI interpret it, it is saying rape is a big deal and counts as a scathing and vicious condemnation of the radfems who have been saying it. The problem is that it paints women who want inclusivity as these radfems.

 

Bruce, have you looked into the social media around these subjects? This is the response to a man who came out as having been raped by a woman:

 

http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/image/96862041112

 

Again, can't post the thing because of language. But these are real messages. I've had to resort to using the image because the actual thing got taken down, but I saw these being posted. I would not hesitate to condemn this cartoon if it wasn't for the fact that this is a very real and prevalent attitude among those harassing gamers right now.

[Orogun01]

For anyone that is still following the story; after a few inquiries into corruption within Reddit and people accepting money in exchange for AMAs and a look at the moderators it seems that The New Yorker, Ars Technica and others have decided to cover GamerGate. Their articles are biased towards the SJW side and against 4chan and GamerGate, which doesn't come as a surprise since they are owned by Advanced Publications who in turn owns Reddit. 

https://archive.today/KoOpy

[kirottu]

I think I have seen Moebius Strip that wasn't as onesided as that article. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

.....

 

They're on to us. Assemble the High Council of the Patriarchy.

[HoonDing]

.....

 

They're on to us. Assemble the High Council of the Patriarchy.

[Calax]

.....

 

They're on to us. Assemble the High Council of the Patriarchy.

Where'd I put my cape and "penetrator"

[Longknife]

.....

They're on to us. Assemble the High Council of the Patriarchy.

TO THE MISOGYNYMOBILE!!!!

[Meshugger]

Apparantly, this is now a song about rape:

 

 

Gotta adapt that new nomenclature.

[Orogun01]

Say what you will about the folks at the 4chan but they have been productive

http://www.goodgamers.us/

 

Edit:The findings so far:

 

http://pastebin.com/LAmZNVKn

Edited September 10, 2014 by Orogun01

[BruceVC]

 

Guys I'm not going to go back and respond to all comments, but I'll just say I'm not convinced that my view is incorrext  In summary I'll make some general response

 

• The word gamer does not mean all gamers in this context. @ TN you posted this link https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/death-to-the-gamer/.  Wow you talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel to find a link that supports your perspective. No that article is annoying and doesn't reflect what gaming journalists are saying, I mentioned websites like the Escapist and RPS that have gone to great lengths to explain what they mean by gamers which you guys have conveniently ignored as it doesn't suit your interpretation of the narrative. Read this link if you want to understand what gaming journalists mean and tell me where in this link its says "all white male gamers are misogynistic scum " https://archive.today/CeWxy

 

Bruce, that article was on the first google page of the search term "death of the gamer", when many of the journalists' articles, even the one titled that exactly, didn't even show up. I think google's sorting algorythms are a fairly good representation of notability. It also perfectly illustrates my point of that these journalists should have redefined gamer in advance instead of in retrospect and whether or not they spoke out of malice or ignorance at this point is irrelevant, as their original articles have spawned this viewpoint and they need to own up to that. You can't make a public connection between gamers and misogyny and then play takeback.

 

 

 

TN you spent a lot of time on this email and proper debating etiquette demands that I respond to you. But the truth is I'm tired of responding to comments in this thread. Do you mind if I skip responding this time? I will respond if you insist as I am a man of integrity and believe in the importance of the institutions that govern places like these forums. But as I mentioned I would really prefer not having to respond due to the complexity of your email

Edited September 11, 2014 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

 

 

Not a big fan of that cartoon myself as it does misrepresent women as all being hardline fems who would say something like that. I appreciate what it's trying to do but the punchline is pretty rude and unhelpful.

 

I much prefer this one as it is much closer to what I've seen a couple of hundred times in the last few days: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/823/986/b4c.jpg

 

Not posting the picture itself because of language rules.

 

That cartoon tries to diminish the act of rape, its in very bad taste and offensive.

 

 

I don't think that's what it's doing. As mI interpret it, it is saying rape is a big deal and counts as a scathing and vicious condemnation of the radfems who have been saying it. The problem is that it paints women who want inclusivity as these radfems.

 

Bruce, have you looked into the social media around these subjects? This is the response to a man who came out as having been raped by a woman:

 

http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/image/96862041112

 

Again, can't post the thing because of language. But these are real messages. I've had to resort to using the image because the actual thing got taken down, but I saw these being posted. I would not hesitate to condemn this cartoon if it wasn't for the fact that this is a very real and prevalent attitude among those harassing gamers right now.

 

 

Not sure what is relevant about this link to my point that any cartoon that diminishes rape is unacceptable. And yes those comments you posted from feminists are extremely rude and also very insensitive

[BruceVC]

 

 

On the note of the cartoon, and the punch line (which I am assuming is what you find offensive, Bruce). I will quote George Carlin, "You can joke about anything. It all depends on how you construct the joke. Where the exaggeration is." He goes on to use rape as a punch line saying "Imagine Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd."

 

This carton uses the final panel to exaggerate the way this conversation is happening between gamers and the media outlets at the moment. The lucid members of these site's community (not the demons that are pretty abhorrent) point out examples that don't align with the agenda of said media, and those media outlets say "you're a misogynist." These sites cry wolf at a sheep. Was rape the best example to use? I don't know. It kind of ties into ZQ's own statements on rape in a shaky way, but I would have definitely played the misogyny card first as it is more pertinent. That doesn't make the joke offensive, in and of itself, though.

 

I have avoided this topic like the plague, but I do think there are issues in the gaming community and in our media. I think there are some huge issues with our media, but there are useless people in the gaming community that are exacerbating this issue with death threats and other horrible antics. However, the medias inability to take actual lucid criticism without insulting its viewers via name calling/labeling, blocking, and censoring is more offensive than this cartoon to me.

 

 

Yes the punch line is exactly what I find offensive. You make some good points in a reasonable way. But end of the day this whole Zoe Quinn incident and this furore around people being selective around the definition of the word "gamers" is just about gaming and the gaming fanbase. Its  not an issue that is significant outside of gaming communities

 

But rape is something that is an appalling and serious crime that permeates our society in the real world. We need to differentiate between jokes that are applicable and jokes that are never funny and never acceptable irrespective of the message they are trying to get across. This cartoon is one of them

Edited September 11, 2014 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

That cartoon diminished rape ? Hm, interesting.

[BruceVC]

That cartoon diminished rape ? Hm, interesting.

 

Of course it does, the punch line positions the comment from the women as a response to how she is being verbally attacked. So she says " stop  raping me " and the immediate response from some people who read is  " look she is playing the rape card as a response to criticism"

 

This makes light of the heinous deed of rape and how we react to it. I'm surprised you can't see it?

[Shallow]

 

That cartoon diminished rape ? Hm, interesting.

 

Of course it does, the punch line positions the comment from the women as a response to how she is being verbally attacked. So she says " stop  raping me " and the immediate response from some people who read is  " look she is playing the rape card as a response to criticism"

 

This makes light of the heinous deed of rape and how we react to it. I'm surprised you can't see it?

 

The meaning it is trying to get across isn't l0lz femz claimz rapz, it is A. that there are plenty of strong female chars in games, and B. that some feminists like to redefine rape to whatever they disapprove of, such as consentual yet arguably violent (piv) sex, or cheating, it's also appears to be hinting of mocking people on your side of the fence trying to apply words like mysogonist and harrasser to anyone who refuses to bow down to the feminazi agenda/who are evil servants of the patriarchy hellbent on oppressing the superior gender.

[Malcador]

Didn't take that as diminishing the crime of rape, more of an insult to the response of the people caricatured in the comic.

[BruceVC]

 

 

That cartoon diminished rape ? Hm, interesting.

 

Of course it does, the punch line positions the comment from the women as a response to how she is being verbally attacked. So she says " stop  raping me " and the immediate response from some people who read is  " look she is playing the rape card as a response to criticism"

 

This makes light of the heinous deed of rape and how we react to it. I'm surprised you can't see it?

 

The meaning it is trying to get across isn't l0lz femz claimz rapz, it is A. that there are plenty of strong female chars in games, and B. that some feminists like to redefine rape to whatever they disapprove of, such as consentual yet arguably violent (piv) sex, or cheating, it's also appears to be hinting of mocking people on your side of the fence trying to apply words like mysogonist and harrasser to anyone who refuses to bow down to the feminazi agenda/who are evil servants of the patriarchy hellbent on oppressing the superior gender.

 

 

So then the cartoonist should  have used the word " stop being a misogynist " or something similar. It would have conveyed the same message

 

Let me ask you a question, how do you think any female member would feel logging onto these forums and reading that cartoon and also seeing how many people found it funny? Do you think that type of cartoon would resonate positively with any women? What if there was a women who had really been a victim of rape and reads that, how do you think she is going to feel?

[Ganrich]

If a woman that had been raped read that cartoon I would expect her to feel outrage toward anyone that tries to redefine rape. Or anger toward anyone that would cry wolf in such a manner. You know, like many radfems do.

 

Also, the comments in the aforementioned pic that females ridiculed a man who had been raped are way past rude or insensitive. They directly tear down a potential rape victim. There is a difference between that and the comic. You are willing to call the comic offensive and how jokes like this shouldn't be allowed, but say that verbally attacking, degrading, and insulting a potential rape victim is simply rude and insensitive. That to me is strange. This comic directs its point toward not a single victim, but toward radfems that misuse the terms to work toward an agenda that is anything but equality of the sexes. It uses something terrible like rape as an exaggeration to get its point across.

 

Also, differentiating between jokes that are OK and jokes that aren't is a slippery slope. Who decides what is ok? Whose moral compass do we use as a sounding board? Eventually, no jokes are allowed because there is possibly someone that may take offense to it. It is tantamount to saying that you have freedom of speech.... Oh except in this situation, or when pertaining to this subject, etc. This is something I cannot abide by. People on this planet need to grow some thicker skin. There are jokes I don't care for (heck I practically loathe them) because of my life experiences, but when I hear them (and I do) I brush them off. My life isn't solely defined by my past, and I don't use them to try and censor people.

 

There is a type of torture that has been performed on US PoWs that involved sodomizing them with glass coka-cola bottles. They let the men see the bottle prior to doing it, and then they perform what I would consider rape with it. The purpose is that when they return home every time they see a coke advertisement they remember the torture. Do we ask Coka-Cola to change their name and branding? Stop making Coke? What if one of those soldiers sees a coke advertisement? How would they feel?

 

I don't disagree that misogynist may have been a better ending, but it don't know if it hits hard enough to truly make the point the comic is trying to make.

[Shallow]

 

 

 

So then the cartoonist should  have used the word " stop being a misogynist " or something similar. It would have conveyed the same message

 

Let me ask you a question, how do you think any female member would feel logging onto these forums and reading that cartoon and also seeing how many people found it funny? Do you think that type of cartoon would resonate positively with any women? What if there was a women who had really been a victim of rape and reads that, how do you think she is going to feel?

 

Depends who the person is, some people take themselves, their race, their nationality, their ideology, their sexual orientation, and their gender more seriously than others, and as I said, while the comic does mock a certain style of feminist, I don't believe it seriously makes fun of actual rape, and for the record, I'm all for rape jokes when entertaining enough and not uttered with malicous intent, so I'm not saying I don't believe it makes fun of actual rape to make me feel good about laughing. Resonate positively isn't exactly clear terminology, but I certainly do believe a decent percentage of women would find it funny, same way I believe a decent percentage would be overly offended.

 

Do you consider yourself a feminist? Your values always seem more in line with the "Protect women, be a gentleman, be sensitive, treat women with great respect" SJW and whiteknight style of ideology, instead of the more feminist schools of thought., not that there's anything wrong with not being a feminist but still being SJW, merely think you should reconsider whether the feminist movement really is something that coincides with your viewpoints.

 

For the last part, a woman who has been a victim of rape probably won't enjoy the humor, but women aren't the only ones with horrible things leaving lasting scars, I fully disapprove of intentionally shoving things that could make someone mentally scarred feel bad into their face, whether they're women or anyone else, but if you never said something that someone somewhere in time or space would have a very good reason to feel offended by, you'd never speak. Odds are most of us here have at at least one point read a joke that, due to a some tragedy, made us feel very bad, odds are for some brief moments we were offended and felt the need to tear it down, but hopefully, we realized the person making such a statement meant no harm, it was a wellmeant joke meant to give someone a laugh, or just something offhand never really meant to hurt anyone, and then we carried on with whatever we were doing beforehand.

[BruceVC]

If a woman that had been raped read that cartoon I would expect her to feel outrage toward anyone that tries to redefine rape. Or anger toward anyone that would cry wolf in such a manner. You know, like many radfems do.

 

Also, the comments in the aforementioned pic that females ridiculed a man who had been raped are way past rude or insensitive. They directly tear down a potential rape victim. There is a difference between that and the comic. You are willing to call the comic offensive and how jokes like this shouldn't be allowed, but say that verbally attacking, degrading, and insulting a potential rape victim is simply rude and insensitive. That to me is strange. This comic directs its point toward not a single victim, but toward radfems that misuse the terms to work toward an agenda that is anything but equality of the sexes. It uses something terrible like rape as an exaggeration to get its point across.

 

Also, differentiating between jokes that are OK and jokes that aren't is a slippery slope. Who decides what is ok? Whose moral compass do we use as a sounding board? Eventually, no jokes are allowed because there is possibly someone that may take offense to it. It is tantamount to saying that you have freedom of speech.... Oh except in this situation, or when pertaining to this subject, etc. This is something I cannot abide by. People on this planet need to grow some thicker skin. There are jokes I don't care for (heck I practically loathe them) because of my life experiences, but when I hear them (and I do) I brush them off. My life isn't solely defined by my past, and I don't use them to try and censor people.

 

There is a type of torture that has been performed on US PoWs that involved sodomizing them with glass coka-cola bottles. They let the men see the bottle prior to doing it, and then they perform what I would consider rape with it. The purpose is that when they return home every time they see a coke advertisement they remember the torture. Do we ask Coka-Cola to change their name and branding? Stop making Coke? What if one of those soldiers sees a coke advertisement? How would they feel?

 

I don't disagree that misogynist may have been a better ending, but it don't know if it hits hard enough to truly make the point the comic is trying to make.

 

Okay those comments from the feminist are offensive, I apologize for not saying that earlier

 

But you make an interesting argument that we need to grow thicker skins, but then why all the outrage from people around the usage of the word " gamers" and what they say this word means? Why all the outrage from gamers who don't like being called misogynistic?

 

Surly the logical answer would "guys grow thicker skins and stop taking offense to what you think gaming journalists are saying"

 

So what is it? When  it comes to dismissive comments  about rape and how many people find that offensive must people just "grow thicker skins" but when it comes to what gaming journalists say about gamers those comments must be considered " hurtful and unacceptable"

 

I hope you see the contradiction in the argument " grow a thicker skin"  because it just gets applied selectively

[Shallow]

 

Okay those comments from the feminist are offensive, I apologize for not saying that earlier

 

But you make an interesting argument that we need to grow thicker skins, but then why all the outrage from people around the usage of the word " gamers" and what they say this word means? Why all the outrage from gamers who don't like being called misogynistic?

 

Surly the logical answer would "guys grow thicker skins and stop taking offense to what you think gaming journalists are saying"

 

So what is it? When  it comes to dismissive comments  about rape and how many people find that offensive must people just "grow thicker skins" but when it comes to what gaming journalists say about gamers those comments must be considered " hurtful and unacceptable"

 

I hope you see the contradiction in the argument " grow a thicker skin"  because it just gets applied selectively

 

There is a massive different between a joke meant to bring laughter to someone somewhere, and people tossing insults and attacks at specific groups. Intentionally attacking and  someone is a **** thing to do, airing coca cola adds and making jokes about radfems even though rape victims might feel offended isn't.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

So then the cartoonist should  have used the word " stop being a misogynist " or something similar. It would have conveyed the same message

 

Let me ask you a question, how do you think any female member would feel logging onto these forums and reading that cartoon and also seeing how many people found it funny? Do you think that type of cartoon would resonate positively with any women? What if there was a women who had really been a victim of rape and reads that, how do you think she is going to feel?

 

Depends who the person is, some people take themselves, their race, their nationality, their ideology, their sexual orientation, and their gender more seriously than others, and as I said, while the comic does mock a certain style of feminist, I don't believe it seriously makes fun of actual rape, and for the record, I'm all for rape jokes when entertaining enough and not uttered with malicous intent, so I'm not saying I don't believe it makes fun of actual rape to make me feel good about laughing. Resonate positively isn't exactly clear terminology, but I certainly do believe a decent percentage of women would find it funny, same way I believe a decent percentage would be overly offended.

 

Do you consider yourself a feminist? Your values always seem more in line with the "Protect women, be a gentleman, be sensitive, treat women with great respect" SJW and whiteknight style of ideology, instead of the more feminist schools of thought., not that there's anything wrong with not being a feminist but still being SJW, merely think you should reconsider whether the feminist movement really is something that coincides with your viewpoints.

 

For the last part, a woman who has been a victim of rape probably won't enjoy the humor, but women aren't the only ones with horrible things leaving lasting scars, I fully disapprove of intentionally shoving things that could make someone mentally scarred feel bad into their face, whether they're women or anyone else, but if you never said something that someone somewhere in time or space would have a very good reason to feel offended by, you'd never speak. Odds are most of us here have at at least one point read a joke that, due to a some tragedy, made us feel very bad, odds are for some brief moments we were offended and felt the need to tear it down, but hopefully, we realized the person making such a statement meant no harm, it was a wellmeant joke meant to give someone a laugh, or just something offhand never really meant to hurt anyone, and then we carried on with whatever we were doing beforehand.

 

 

No I don't  consider myself a feminist because I accept that the word has a negative connotation nowadays and its unhelpful if you try to convince people about what feminism stands for. People only seem to focus on the radical feminist perspective which not what the majority of feminists believe

 

So I believe in gender equality and your description "Protect women, be a gentleman, be sensitive, treat women with great respect" SJW and whiteknight style of ideology " is more what I try to practice and what I believe

[Bryy]

 

The word "gamer " refers to white males who refuse to recognise inclusivity and changes to the gaming industry. The words "the gamer is dead" applies to people who don't want to be part of the change in the industry.

 

Ready for this? I'm about to blow your mind....

 

 

 

Name one "gamer" that matches that definition.

 

 

That's exactly the issue. You can't. Because no one has any misogynistic issues. The perceived misogynistic issues are being manufactured by pointing at nameless or nobody trolls in random comments, the very same trolls who would purposefully say ANYTHING purely to antagonize and not because they mean it. I sincerely doubt you can name a significant figure within the entirety of the video game industry who is openly misogynistic.

 

DAT BLOW UR MIND??

 

 

Oh wait, you're serious when you think this is a valid argument and not a logical fallacy.

[Volourn]

"Let me ask you a question, how do you think any female member would feel logging onto these forums and reading that cartoon and also seeing how many people found it funny? Do you think that type of cartoon would resonate positively with any women? What if there was a women who had really been a victim of rape and reads that, how do you think she is going to feel?"

 

The way you frame your questions makes a suggestion that only women are victims of rape and men just can't understand the concept of rape which is just silly.  Women are NOT evn close to the only victims of rape.

 

Stop making rape about victimization of women. It's not. It's about victimization of people. This is just like the nonsensical crap of  \spousal abuse is about beating up wives' even though we know men are just as often victims of spousal abuse.

 

Also, stop being so sexist and labeling all women (and men) the same.  Women (like men) have different reactions to rape. Hell,  women comedians have had no issues  making 'rape jokes' This includes ones who have been vcitims of sexual assault/rape themselves too.

 

I also bet you are one of those people who never BLINK when a 'rape in prison' joke is made. In fact, I bet you take aprt of such stuff.

 

Feminists are evil. And, this is just more proof. Just like masculinists.

 

LONG LIVE EQUALISTS! SHAME TO THOSE WHO DON'T BELIEVE IN EQUALITY!

[Shallow]

 

No I don't  consider myself a feminist because I accept that the word has a negative connotation nowadays and its unhelpful if you try to convince people about what feminism stands for. People only seem to focus on the radical feminist perspective which not what the majority of feminists believe

 

So I believe in gender equality and your description "Protect women, be a gentleman, be sensitive, treat women with great respect" SJW and whiteknight style of ideology " is more what I try to practice and what I believe

 

But aren't "Protect women, be a gentleman, be sensitive, treat women with great respect" and true equality not incompatible, I mean there are perfectly polite things you'd (in the general sense, I don't know you and thus can't judge you) do for women that you wouldn't do for men, which is perfectly normal, but isn't gender equality.

 

I'm not trying to imply you're some crazy MRA or believe all men should be put in concentration camps, I'm merely asking you to reflect on whether true equality is what you're looking for, to me that doesn't appear to be the case (not that there's anything wrong with that, this isn't intended as an attack on you, or your values, please don't take it that way).