Is the PoE beta + the update info on target with the KS goal - IE spiritual successor?

[IndiraLightfoot]

I enjoyed BG more than any IE game. BG changed my life. Perhaps it was just the right game at the right time.

 

It changed my view on CRPGing forever too, and I had already played CRPGs for 17 years by that time, no kidding!

[Sensuki]

See this is something I have trouble understanding.  I absolutely hated the wilderness maps and exploration in BG1. I vastly preferred BG2 in that regard. I'm mean different strokes for different folks, and all that, but it was all just so boring to me.

Your issue is likely with the lack of content. There were plenty of encounters in them but not enough quests.

 

BG2 didn't really have Wilderness maps. There were like four of them available after you exited the Underdark and they had roughly the same content density as the BG2 ones except there was one that had a pretty large vampire encounter.

[PrimeJunta]

If there's one game that changed cRPG's for me forever, it's Fallout 2. And it isn't even one of my favorites anymore. Knowing where and how to get that power armor kind of ruined it for me forever. Also I only played the original Fallout afterwards, and it was so much better.

 

Another of the gamechangers for me was Morrowind. I was completely enchanted by that beautiful and alien world I could freely explore. Joining the Telvanni to rise through their ranks, exploring the tombs of the Ashlander ancients, coming face to face with the living god Vivek, delving into mysterious ruins from a people disappeared ages ago... pure magic. (Despite all the !$@#!! cliff racers.)

 

And then Oblivion ruined it for me.

 

Then there's Planescape: Torment of course, the one that refuses to be categorized, that showed that computer games can become a real, serious art form.

 

But the rest? Entertaining, exciting, challenging at their best, but none of them truly moved me the way those did.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Then there's Planescape: Torment of course, the one that refuses to be categorized, that showed that computer games can become a real, serious art form.

 

 

Indeed. That was another milestone. Just so very surprising.

[Zansatsu]

If there's one game that changed cRPG's for me forever, it's Fallout 2. And it isn't even one of my favorites anymore. Knowing where and how to get that power armor kind of ruined it for me forever. Also I only played the original Fallout afterwards, and it was so much better.Another of the gamechangers for me was Morrowind. I was completely enchanted by that beautiful and alien world I could freely explore. Joining the Telvanni to rise through their ranks, exploring the tombs of the Ashlander ancients, coming face to face with the living god Vivek, delving into mysterious ruins from a people disappeared ages ago... pure magic. (Despite all the !$@#!! cliff racers.)And then Oblivion ruined it for me.Then there's Planescape: Torment of course, the one that refuses to be categorized, that showed that computer games can become a real, serious art form.But the rest? Entertaining, exciting, challenging at their best, but none of them truly moved me the way those did.

I played fallout in order and I agree fallout one was incredible. It is easily neck and neck with BG, but it is also so different I separate them.

[illathid]

 

See this is something I have trouble understanding.  I absolutely hated the wilderness maps and exploration in BG1. I vastly preferred BG2 in that regard. I'm mean different strokes for different folks, and all that, but it was all just so boring to me.

Your issue is likely with the lack of content. There were plenty of encounters in them but not enough quests.

 

BG2 didn't really have Wilderness maps. There were like four of them available after you exited the Underdark and they had roughly the same content density as the BG2 ones except there was one that had a pretty large vampire encounter.

 

 

Yeah, I don't think I ever went to those maps when BG2 was released. I did check them out in BG2EE, with everyone hasted to the gills.

 

I think part of the problem with BG1 wilderness maps for me was I couldn't find any in character justification for the exploration. I did because the game was actually pretty hard, and it was a decent way to increase your power before taking on harder content (a fair amount of magical items, decent combat XP, etc.).

[Gromnir]

initial thread query is silly. get 100 ie game fans together and have them list what they thinks is essential to be making an ie game successor. raise your hand if you expect genuine uniformity from those 100 fans.

 

*shrug*

 

the fact that obsidian has slight difference o' opinion than Gromnir is probable a good thing. for example, we wouldn't have made a class-based system integral. recognizing that PoE couldn't be ad&d or iwd2 d20, we woulda' dumped classes to actual better achieve obsidian stated goal o' allowing greater player character development freedom and choice.

 

people keep saying "spiritual successor to the ie games" as if that gots a meaning. it don't. as much as obsidian aimed to be recreating the feel o' ie games, there is no definitive list o' essentials 75% o' us could agree 'pon, and we were never offered anything but feel anyways. 

 

two point that should be obvious, but isn't:

 

1) is not d&d... couldn't be d&d, so much o' things some folks would think o' as essential to the feel o' the ie games is not possible in PoE... or at least, not practical. 

 

2) anything a person thought were busted in the ie games is not gonna be something they believe is essential to replicating the feel of the ie games. duh.

 

point two seems to be getting lost. we thought ranged combat were busted in bg, so when the iwd developers changed ranged combat, we didn't mind. other folks wailed that bis were destroying their essential character builds... ruining the ie games. as we noted earlier, we thinks the d&d class systems is broken-down and busted, particularly kits. so, guess what, we don't wouldn't miss classes and we don't miss kits.  kits were busted, so they clear ain't essential to feel o' a game replicating the feel o' the ie games.

 

people is having this insane debate over whether PoE replicates ie without recognizing you don't have any functional definition as to what is or ain'ty esential to an ie game, and you sure as hell can't define a feel.

 

is PoE features you like. is stuff you dislike. is stuff you thinks will make PoE better. is stuff you think obsidian has done that is not making PoE a good game. whatever. quit using the ie successor feel crap as an excuse. man-up... or woman-up, as the case may be.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: added 1 word

Edited September 8, 2014 by Gromnir

[Bryy]

They key term here is "spiritual successor". 

[Gromnir]

They key term here is "spiritual successor". 

which don't mean anything.  seriously. define what qualities make for a spiritual successor? we sure as hell can't define what amounts to feel o' a spiritual successor. 

 

sorry. is arguing over nonsense. obsidian no doubt thought they were making easy on themselves by using inherent ambiguous terms, but somehow folks is doing the opposite and using vague to bludgeon the developers.

 

like or don't like. have a serious argument over what does and doesn't qualify o' successor stuff is... silly.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Azrael Ultima]

Yeah, I don't think I ever went to those maps when BG2 was released. I did check them out in BG2EE, with everyone hasted to the gills.

 

I think part of the problem with BG1 wilderness maps for me was I couldn't find any in character justification for the exploration. I did because the game was actually pretty hard, and it was a decent way to increase your power before taking on harder content (a fair amount of magical items, decent combat XP, etc.).

I was level 5 as a sorceror before i ever entered Nashkel.

 

But there really was little in-game reason to explore the majority of the wilderness other than "it's there", and most of them were somewhat generic.

[Sensuki]

is PoE features you like. is stuff you dislike. is stuff you thinks will make PoE better. is stuff you think obsidian has done that is not making PoE a good game. whatever. quit using the ie successor feel crap as an excuse. man-up... or woman-up, as the case may be.

 

Sorry but no, I won't stop doing that.

[Gromnir]

 

is PoE features you like. is stuff you dislike. is stuff you thinks will make PoE better. is stuff you think obsidian has done that is not making PoE a good game. whatever. quit using the ie successor feel crap as an excuse. man-up... or woman-up, as the case may be.

 

Sorry but no, I won't stop doing that.

 

that's fine... we didn't expect you to. doesn't change how ridiculous it is to argue over what does and doesn't qualify as features essential to replicating the feel o' an spiritual ie successor. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sensuki]

Only because you don't think it's quantifiable  Maybe it isn't to you.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Sensuki

[Wintersong]

So does Poe, so far, capture the nostalgia of the classic RPGs BG, IWD and PST?

 

In short, is it a spiritual successor of the IE games?

Yes. No doubt about that (keeping in mind the limited scope of the beta and blah blah blah). About its performance in the Spiritual Successor Scale™, we will have to wait until it's released (and patched???). But in my subjective scale, everything points at a worthy successor. For now. Better than BG2? Better than PST? I don't really care. As long as it's good, I'll be happy. If it helps to spawn more (good!) cRPGs like IE ones, even better. If it becomes a timeless masterpiece, cool.

[Uomoz]

Only because you don't think it's quantifiable  Maybe it isn't to you.

 

It's not strictly quantifiable, however you look at it. It's a pile of features (some obsolete) plus feels and memories of the 90'. Pretty hard to tell how to exactly determine what a broad term like "spiritual successor" is. For some even DA is a spiritual successor to BG, can you argue against it objectively? I feel like PoE do indeed capture those *feels*, but I can't quantify or argue about how much "spiritual successor" value it has.

[Sensuki]

I think it really depends what features you are talking about.

 

Feel of combat - you can quantify this by going back and looking at the old games and having a look at what types of feedback they gave, what the animations looked like, how fast it was, how long characters had to wait between actions, how long combats took in general.

 

I could go on and on, but I really think it's not that hard to see what people mean when describe something as feeling like the IE games. Josh Sawyer also had a powerpoint page on his GDC Presentation dedicated to the IE feels.

[Uomoz]

I see your point but I still kind of disagree. The things you mention are obviously subjective, so it's hard to objectively state "X is spiritual successor because it has >= 66% IE feels/parameters/animations/whatever". To me PoE is a spiritual successor, but for some people stuff like combat xp is actually a deal breaker.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Uomoz

[PrimeJunta]

I think P:E captures the feelz excellently... outside combat. 

 

I also think P:E is closer to capturing the feelz in combat than many people here seem to think. Most of the problems with it are superficial and relatively easy to address; others are merely a matter of adjusting numbers to get the pace and space right; yet others are consequences of poor AI and pathfinding issues. The combat doesn't feel poorly designed as much as simply unfinished.

 

I'm extremely confident the combat will improve in leaps and bounds with the upcoming builds. Just how far it'll carry remains an open question of course. But I'm optimistic about it, more so than, say, stealth or exploration which currently also leave something to be desired, especially stealth. Not because they're any harder to address, but because they're not central to the game (stealth) or the crucial work has already been done (map size and content in exploration).

[Sensuki]

but for some people stuff like combat xp is actually a deal breaker.

 

I would say that this is not in the spirit of the IE games (the lack of combat XP), but like I've said before, it's a non-negotiable and thus a waste of breath.

[Sensuki]

But I'm optimistic about it, more so than, say, stealth or exploration which currently also leave something to be desired, especially stealth. Not because they're any harder to address, but because they're not central to the game (stealth) or the crucial work has already been done (map size and content in exploration).

 

Well exploration was a disappointment in the Black Isle games, so I suppose it wouldn't be much of a surprise if it was here as well, as they generally favor smaller maps with higher content density. A shame though.

[Uomoz]

Huge wilderness area require a lot of time investment/work. I believe they decided to go with smaller maps (with high content ratio) because bigger areas would have been a lot worse quality-wise if produced in the same time frame. The "quality" of most wilderness maps in BG1 was kind of terrible compared to the POI areas like cities and smaller areas. In wilderness areas, a lot of elements felt copy pasted over and over, a feeling I don't have playing PoE.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Uomoz

[Sensuki]

Well BG1 did use tiles for the 3D Geometry, if that's what you're referring to.

 

I thought most of the areas themselves were pretty good, they just didn't have enough quests. Each Wilderness area had one minor quest (usually a fetch quest or a "save from X" quest) and that was it.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Sensuki

[Monte Carlo]

I'm as leery as the next person of trying to define what 'spiritual successor' means...

 

...but it was obz that deployed the term in the KS, wasn't it?

[Ineth]

 

They key term here is "spiritual successor". 

which don't mean anything.  seriously. define what qualities make for a spiritual successor?

 

Simple. You extract the spirit from the original game using Animancy, then +1 it, and then put it into the body of a new game...

[Gromnir]

 The things you mention are obviously subjective, so it's hard to objectively state "X is spiritual successor because it has >= 66% IE feels/parameters/animations/whatever". 

what you are stating is self-evident and should be beyond the possibility of contesting. and yet...

 

*shrug*

 

bg wilderness is actual another great example similar to bg ranged weapons excess. the bg2 boards were extreme vocal regarding the loathing o' bg1 wilderness maps. More durlag's, Less random wilderness. hell, even vol will chime in and admit that the bg2 boards were ugly and angry against bg1 wilderness being in bg2. nevertheless, many folks see a return o' such maps as essential.

 

it strikes us as slight amusing that obsidian should use such vague and ambiguous descriptors and still find themselves being accused o' developer malfeasance and/or failure to live up to promises. predictable? sure, but is funny in a sad kinda way. leave vague actual makes it possible for any beloved feature to be essential. how do you argue against the essential nature o' feature X if is only essential 'cause o' subjective feel? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 8, 2014 by Gromnir