Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?

[khermann]

Bugs matter no to khermann, khermann want good gameplay at release. If bugs make good gameplay at release, khermann happy. khermann no care about what IE is to all others, khermann understands subjectivity. khermann also know making classless classes with meaningless attributes is degenerative design, not progenitive gameplay. khermann also know gamers have too many good options to tolerate a **** release, patch or no, and khermann reckons backers will know the difference.

 

HEH good fun

[Seari]

THE GROMNIR DISEASE IS SPREADING, IT'S CONTAGIOUS! RUN AWAY, ABANDON THREAD!

[Eraydon]

I'm concerned about the scale as well. But is this something they can adjust "fairly easily"--rather, is this something they would be WILLING to adjust?

I sincerely hope that they do not release this game until it is in full working, satisfactory order. Heck, I'd wait a whole year more if it meant the game was top notch. They might have been a bit too ambitious and yeah, I get they might be a little frightened of having to admit that to their hungry fans, but let's be honest, who wants a game that's not top-notch just because they "really really want to play." Everyone will just end up disappointed.

So take your time guys! I shall wait as patiently as I can!

[Leferd]

Gromnir is ubiquitous. Gromnir is eternal. Long before these boards, there was Gromnir.

 

Ever heard of Galactus? Gromnir is Galactus. That great bogeyman and devourer of worlds that exist as a force of nature. Neither good nor evil. Just a necessity.

 

http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2011/04/06/the-trial-of-reed-richards/

Edited September 5, 2014 by Leferd

[Mayama]

That's true, PJ. However, there is this line from the KS, I don't have it here, where they specify it all, something like: "We'll take the best of the IE games, the story quality from PST, the combat from IWD2, and the exploring and freedom from the BG..." or something like it.

Like I posted somewhere else the aligment system was a huge part of most IE games but their was no outcry after they said that they dont have something similar in the game. Why? Because most people hated it. But you cant deny that it influences a lot that you do in those games. Thats my problem with people that say that removing X makes it not a spiritual successor. They are all very picky about what is a must in a IE like game. They also usually tend to think that their view on that topic is the right one and what do we call people that believe in a absolutly right answer in a abstract philosphicaly debate? Fanatics.

 

So what is actually the best of the IE games? What is it for you. Or what is the worst? For me the worst part of all IE games was the combat because I think its a mess with a weird forced turn based game play under the real time hood. So for me its not a part of the "good" IE stuff.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Mayama

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Gromnir is ubiquitous. Gromnir is eternal. Long before these boards, there was Gromnir.

 

Ever heard of Galactus? Gromnir is Galactus. That great bogeyman and devourer of worlds that exist as a force of nature. Neither good nor evil. Just a necessity.

 

http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2011/04/06/the-trial-of-reed-richards/

I thought Gromnir was closer to Thanos. We need a chart for this.

[Immortalis]

 

That's true, PJ. However, there is this line from the KS, I don't have it here, where they specify it all, something like: "We'll take the best of the IE games, the story quality from PST, the combat from IWD2, and the exploring and freedom from the BG..." or something like it.

Like I posted somewhere else the aligment system was a huge part of most IE games but their was no outcry after they said that they dont have something similar in the game. Why?  [/facts]    <Your Opinion Follows>

 

 

Because it was a shallow mechanic that they improved on.. Instead of axing it. The xp system isn't being improved to provide more granularity in xp rewards.. it is being axed and clumped out at key points because balancing is hard!

 

Just so you don't bring up another weak argument.. The alignment system wasn't removed.. it was transformed into a much more complex C&C system where your actions dictate a wide scope of different traits that people perceive you as.. Instead of just picking some generic trait at the start of the game.. AKA 1 choice and shallow consequences.

 

There was no outcry because that's a good system.. better then anyone thought of back in the day.. You think if Bioware asked us during BG 2 Development if we could have one or the other anyone would say "go for the shallow crappy system that's easier to implement"

 

I love your apple and oranges comparison.. Alignment system and xp system aren't even close to the same situation in PoE. Can you stop making weak arguments if your gonna take the aggressive stance that you do?

 

Why don't you bring up blood lines while your at it.. since we are gonna be comparing toasters and chickens all day.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Immortalis

[Mayama]

 

 

That's true, PJ. However, there is this line from the KS, I don't have it here, where they specify it all, something like: "We'll take the best of the IE games, the story quality from PST, the combat from IWD2, and the exploring and freedom from the BG..." or something like it.

Like I posted somewhere else the aligment system was a huge part of most IE games but their was no outcry after they said that they dont have something similar in the game. Why?  [/facts]    <Your Opinion Follows>

 

 

Because it was a shallow mechanic that they improved on.. Instead of axing it. The xp system isn't being improved to provide more granularity in xp rewards.. it is being axed and clumped out at key points because balancing is hard!

 

I love your apple and oranges comparison.. Alignment system and xp system aren't even close to the same situation. Can you stop making weak arguments if your gonna take the aggressive stance that you do?

 

Why don't you bring up blood lines while your at it.. since we are gonna be comparing toasters and chickens all day.

 

Its not apple and orange, nobody can decide WHICH part was important because thats something everyone has to decide for himself. Sayin A was not important and B is, is just extremly arrogant. You cant rationalize personal taste. Its not up to you to decide WHAT is shallow its also not up to you to decide for everyone else what is good or not or what improves the game. Speak for yourself, grow up and stop beeing so full of yourself.

 

You know what pisses most people off about those "pro xp people" that exact attitude.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Mayama

[Captain Shrek]

Actually Immortalis is pretty just objectively right: Obsidian did take a one/two dimensional system with just ALIGHNMENT and turned into multi faceted mechanic. That can only be an incline. 

[Mayama]

Actually Immortalis is pretty just objectively right: Obsidian did take a one/two dimensional system with just ALIGHNMENT and turned into multi faceted mechanic. That can only be an incline. 

You cant be objective about taste and factions is not the same thing as aligment. All those debates are about personal taste and/or preferences. Their is no right or wrong. 

[Captain Shrek]

 

 

Actually Immortalis is pretty just objectively right: Obsidian did take a one/two dimensional system with just ALIGHNMENT and turned into multi faceted mechanic. That can only be an incline.

You cant be objective about taste and factions is not the same thing as aligment. All those debates are about personal taste and/or preferences. Their is no right or wrong.

This is one of those few instances where objectivity is in fact possible. They are just giving us more where there was less and it is not bloat like the 12 armours crap.

[Mayama]

 

 

That's true, PJ. However, there is this line from the KS, I don't have it here, where they specify it all, something like: "We'll take the best of the IE games, the story quality from PST, the combat from IWD2, and the exploring and freedom from the BG..." or something like it.

Like I posted somewhere else the aligment system was a huge part of most IE games but their was no outcry after they said that they dont have something similar in the game. Why?  [/facts]    <Your Opinion Follows>

 

 

Because it was a shallow mechanic that they improved on.. Instead of axing it. The xp system isn't being improved to provide more granularity in xp rewards.. it is being axed and clumped out at key points because balancing is hard!

 

Just so you don't bring up another weak argument.. The alignment system wasn't removed.. it was transformed into a much more complex C&C system where your actions dictate a wide scope of different traits that people perceive you as.. Instead of just picking some generic trait at the start of the game.. AKA 1 choice and shallow consequences.

 

There was no outcry because that's a good system.. better then anyone thought of back in the day.. You think if Bioware asked us during BG 2 Development if we could have one or the other anyone would say "go for the shallow crappy system that's easier to implement"

 

I love your apple and oranges comparison.. Alignment system and xp system aren't even close to the same situation in PoE. Can you stop making weak arguments if your gonna take the aggressive stance that you do?

 

Why don't you bring up blood lines while your at it.. since we are gonna be comparing toasters and chickens all day.

 

Make a new post instead of editing.

 

You say its a shallow argument, so you basicaly want to tell me what was part of the IE experience and what is not? Its a changed system, they changed it. That means it isnt the same as in the IE games. Everyone can decide for themself if its an improvement. You seem to think that you have the right to choose for everyone whats an improvement and what is not. As I said this are all arguments about opinions and at the very moment were you present an opinion as fact you make your self look like an arogant prick. You can think whatever you want about my opinion but it does not make your opinion worth more.

 

See I personaly dont care much about how they give out XP in an RPG because for me its just a way to level and if its not a dungeon grind fest I dont care if I get xp for kills or whatever. You make the mistake of assuming that your opinion about game system and parts is shared with other people. As I showed you in that XP example their is at least one guy (me) that does not share your opinion and because those are all opinions their is no absolute right or wrong.

 

TL/DR stop presenting an opinion as fact.

 

EDIT: Its also funny that you made that editing of my post "your opinion flows" not realizing that well your post is also just an opinion. No matter how desperatly you try to make it sound like fact.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Mayama

[Captain Shrek]

It is hopeless to argue this. Please let's drop it. 

[Mayama]

It is hopeless to argue this. Please let's drop it. 

Yes that what I basicaly posted in my first post, all those hundreds of posts where people desperatly try to present their opinions as facts are wasted space.

[Immortalis]

 

 

 

That's true, PJ. However, there is this line from the KS, I don't have it here, where they specify it all, something like: "We'll take the best of the IE games, the story quality from PST, the combat from IWD2, and the exploring and freedom from the BG..." or something like it.

Like I posted somewhere else the aligment system was a huge part of most IE games but their was no outcry after they said that they dont have something similar in the game. Why?  [/facts]    <Your Opinion Follows>

 

 

Because it was a shallow mechanic that they improved on.. Instead of axing it. The xp system isn't being improved to provide more granularity in xp rewards.. it is being axed and clumped out at key points because balancing is hard!

 

Just so you don't bring up another weak argument.. The alignment system wasn't removed.. it was transformed into a much more complex C&C system where your actions dictate a wide scope of different traits that people perceive you as.. Instead of just picking some generic trait at the start of the game.. AKA 1 choice and shallow consequences.

 

There was no outcry because that's a good system.. better then anyone thought of back in the day.. You think if Bioware asked us during BG 2 Development if we could have one or the other anyone would say "go for the shallow crappy system that's easier to implement"

 

I love your apple and oranges comparison.. Alignment system and xp system aren't even close to the same situation in PoE. Can you stop making weak arguments if your gonna take the aggressive stance that you do?

 

Why don't you bring up blood lines while your at it.. since we are gonna be comparing toasters and chickens all day.

 

Make a new post instead of editing.

 

You say its a shallow argument, so you basicaly want to tell me what was part of the IE experience and what is not? Its a changed system, they changed it. That means it isnt the same as in the IE games. Everyone can decide for themself if its an improvement. You seem to think that you have the right to choose for everyone whats an improvement and what is not. As I said this are all arguments about opinions and at the very moment were you present an opinion as fact you make your self look like an arogant prick. You can think whatever you want about my opinion but it does not make your opinion worth more.

 

See I personaly dont care much about how they give out XP in an RPG because for me its just a way to level and if its not a dungeon grind fest I dont care if I get xp for kills or whatever. You make the mistake of assuming that your opinion about game system and parts is shared with other people. As I showed you in that XP example their is at least one guy (me) that does not share your opinion and because those are all opinions their is no absolute right or wrong.

 

TL/DR stop presenting an opinion as fact.

 

EDIT: Its also funny that you made that editing of my post "your opinion flows" not realizing that well your post is also just an opinion. No matter how desperatly you try to make it sound like fact.

 

 

What part was my opinion?

 

The alignment system was changed.. it was improved and had more depth added.

The XP system was changed.. it was dumbed down.. became less complicated more static.

 

One change gives us more dynamic choices and one creates a more linear experience.

 

[/fact]

 

[immortalis opinions]

 

I think these changes are not equal in value and are not comparable to say we didn't bitch about one so that makes the other okay.

Your arguments are weak.. their premise is wrong.

 

[/opinions]

 

I was at the gym for the last hour.. I never actually edited that post in the time span between your two posts.. sooo.. Dunno what your mad about there.

 

EDIT:

Captain Shrek basically nailed my fact portion on the head.. He may disagree with my opinions but I don't think you can logically say I am wrong about how these systems were changed for PoE..

Edited September 5, 2014 by Immortalis

[Gromnir]

 

Gromnir is ubiquitous. Gromnir is eternal. Long before these boards, there was Gromnir.

 

Ever heard of Galactus? Gromnir is Galactus. That great bogeyman and devourer of worlds that exist as a force of nature. Neither good nor evil. Just a necessity.

 

http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2011/04/06/the-trial-of-reed-richards/

I thought Gromnir was closer to Thanos. We need a chart for this.

 

another Gromnir thread?

 

in any event, we got no actual superpowers, and if death has a personification, we feel no urge to date it/her... not even if she were more like neil gaiman's death,

 

hmmm. Gromnir's role? Kurtz from Heart of Darkness, or perhaps Colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse Now? 

 

 

regardless, am having concerns about the 2014 release. the recent patch, while certainly an improvement, leaves us with new concerns without anything close to even half eradication o' our worries previous to the patch release. o' particular concern, as far as bugs go, is the startling frequency o' per-encounter abilities failing to reset after a combat ends... and reload does not solve this issue.

 

we will be a bit more patient, but we hope that obsidian is not doing as so many developers/publishers has done in recent years and contemplated the release o' an unfinished product that will needs be considerable solidified and optimized after going gold. oh, sure, the game may be released in december, but will it be resembling a finished product before january or february of 2015 when the inevitable post release patches are finally made available? dunno. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Namutree]

I was going to stop posting, but I guess I just can't keep myself away... For the (I think 2) posters whom predicted my return; good call. You are both wise and gentlemen. Now onto my actual post...

 

First off: Mayama is right; the alignment system was axed. Reputation isn't alignment and never could be. I was sad to see alignment go, but I didn't really complain since reputation was added as a consolation. Too bad we didn't just have both. Oh well...

 

The difference between the kill-xp and alignment cut is that nothing replaced kill-xp. Quest-xp was already in the IE games. If Obsidian added something like discovery xp I am pretty confident Obsidian wouldn't even get a third of the complaints they are getting. 

 

Maybe I'm wrong though...

 

For those on the pro kill-xp side; it would be cool to know if discovery-xp would be a decent consolation. For me at least it would be.

 

When I say discovery-xp I am referring to when you find a special place/person/thing you receive some xp.

 

EDIT: Wait! This isn't a xp thread! I better make my post a bit more relevant to the subject. I think poe could be a disappointment, but it certainly isn't doomed at this point. At least not in terms of functionality.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Namutree

[ctdavids]

regardless, am having concerns about the 2014 release. the recent patch, while certainly an improvement, leaves us with new concerns without anything close to even half eradication o' our worries previous to the patch release. o' particular concern, as far as bugs go, is the startling frequency o' per-encounter abilities failing to reset after a combat ends... and reload does not solve this issue.

 

we will be a bit more patient, but we hope that obsidian is not doing as so many developers/publishers has done in recent years and contemplated the release o' an unfinished product that will needs be considerable solidified and optimized after going gold. oh, sure, the game may be released in december, but will it be resembling a finished product before january or february of 2015 when the inevitable post release patches are finally made available? dunno. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I have to agree with Gromnir that I'm not convinced a 2014 release is a good idea.  Obviously none of us have as much information as Obsidian, but from what I've seen there are some pretty big concerns on the bug front.  Leaving aside any concerns people have about the mechanics (xp system/attribute system/armor system/etc/etc) the simple fact is that there are a lot of show-stopping bugs:

• Items that disappear
• Combat stats that are incorrectly calculated producing invulnerable characters or completely ineffectual characters
• Memory leaks on save/load or just plain crashes on load
• As gromnir mentioned, the 'stuck in combat' or 'encounter abilities not refreshing' bug
• The infinite reload (character just keeps reloading weapon and does nothing else) bug
• Pathing being broken for groups bigger than 6 (including pets)

I'm sure there are more.  But those are all bugs that I have experienced not once, but every time I've played the game.  They make it incredibly frustrating to try to play through 4 quests.  Now imagine trying to play through a full game.  If after 4 quests my paladin gains stats that render her invincible am I really going to enjoy playing another 100 quests? No, because there won't be any challenge.  If my grappling hooks disappear in a beta well, ok, I restart, but if it happens after playing 20h?  I'm done.

 

All of these bugs existed when the backer beta started (except maybe the pathing thing, because there was no real collision). The item disappearing one got somewhat better.  But not completely.  None of the others have really been improved.

 

Now, I'm sure they're working hard on everything, but I just have to wonder if there's enough time to get all the bugs squashed and do any balancing that needs to be done and add polish any content that needs to be done and... 

 

I would much, much rather see a delayed launch and a rock-solid product than a bungled release of a sub-par game.

[Leferd]

"I'm sure there are more. But those are all bugs that I have experienced not once, but every time I've played the game."

 

That's actually a good thing. Easily reproducible bugs are much easier to squish. I'm not worried about the bugs. These are fixable.

 

There are however, legitimate concerns regarding content and design. Those are harder challenges as these will involve additional internal play testing and iteration for balance and polish with each significant change.

 

Content and design? Hard.

Bugs? Squishy.

[ManifestedISO]

Bugs matter no to khermann, khermann want good gameplay at release. If bugs make good gameplay at release, khermann happy. khermann no care about what IE is to all others, khermann understands subjectivity. khermann also know making classless classes with meaningless attributes is degenerative design, not progenitive gameplay. khermann also know gamers have too many good options to tolerate a **** release, patch or no, and khermann reckons backers will know the difference.

 

HEH good fun

 

The cheese, it is grating. 

[Mayama]

What part was my opinion?

 

The alignment system was changed.. it was improved and had more depth added.

The XP system was changed.. it was dumbed down.. became less complicated more static.

 

One change gives us more dynamic choices and one creates a more linear experience.

 

[/fact]

 

[immortalis opinions]

 

I think these changes are not equal in value and are not comparable to say we didn't bitch about one so that makes the other okay.

Your arguments are weak.. their premise is wrong.

 

[/opinions]

 

I was at the gym for the last hour.. I never actually edited that post in the time span between your two posts.. sooo.. Dunno what your mad about there.

 

EDIT:

Captain Shrek basically nailed my fact portion on the head.. He may disagree with my opinions but I don't think you can logically say I am wrong about how these systems were changed for PoE..

 

This is getting ridiculous, you are still insisting on telling me that its a fact that the change to the alignment system was an improvement?

That its fact that the new XP system is dumped down?

Answer me one question, how did you measure it?

Dumped down and improvement in the same sentence as fact is a paradox if we speak about design. 

You are still trying to sell that as facts. You might think that its better but that does not make it a fact.

Because a fact has to be objectively better and thats impossible if you cant measure it.

This is not natural science which is based on facts, its design and that has only opinions.

 

Edit:

You also backpedaled a lot in this post from the previous ones, toning down the "this is fact part" so you sound more reasonable.

You should also keep your tongue in check, saying someone else argument is weak or his premise is wrong only makes you look arogant.

Also you edited your post because I quoted it both times and second one is way longer.

Best part is this:

Just so you don't bring up another weak argument.. The alignment system wasn't removed.. it was transformed into a much more complex C&C system where your actions dictate a wide scope of different traits that people perceive you as.. Instead of just picking some generic trait at the start of the game.. AKA 1 choice and shallow consequences.

...so your COUNTER argument for my "weak" argument is that the alignment change was good while the xp change was not? Ok please tell me how do you proof it? You cant its your opinion. Its basicaly your opinion that my opinion that both changes are equaly important is not right... and thats well only your opinion. Its not a fact no matter how hard you want it to be one. You are basicaly behaving like those people I was characterizing in my first post. That "just so you don't bring up..." part reads a lot like "shut up my opinion is right". Seriously grow up.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Mayama

[Gromnir]

"I'm sure there are more. But those are all bugs that I have experienced not once, but every time I've played the game."

 

That's actually a good thing. Easily reproducible bugs are much easier to squish. I'm not worried about the bugs. These are fixable.

 

There are however, legitimate concerns regarding content and design. Those are harder challenges as these will involve additional internal play testing and iteration for balance and polish with each significant change.

 

Content and design? Hard.

Bugs? Squishy.

yeah, we have mentioned multiple times in multiple threads that we got a particular problem with the lack o' transparency o' PoE combat. we would like changes to combat log, but more important, we frequent have no way to discern which foes is affected by debuffs, which prevents us from intelligently layering additional debuffs. these is only a couple issues, but am thinking that an obsidian fix would be much time/resource consuming.

 

now maybe not everybody sees our big problems as being problems. is possible that obsidian don't see our stated concerns as genuine problems. the thing is, we is discouraged that any discussion is largely pointless as there simple ain't time to make any major or meaningful changes. bugs are squishy? sure, but there is loads o' them... more than we expected at this late date.   quashing all those annoying little bugs will take considerable time and efforts, and obsidian doesn't have an abundance o' time and man-hours. 

 

the beta gives us time to provide feedback to obsidian so they can quash bugs, but not much else. is disappointing. optimization and solidification is not likely to happen til after release. but perhaps we is complete wrong... just don't seem like it. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Namutree]

This is getting ridiculous, you are still insisting on telling me that its a fact that the change to the alignment system was an improvement?

 

 

Agreed. Reputation is far from an improvement over alignment. It's just different. 

 

Reputation: How people perceive you.

Alignment: How you actually are.

 

One is definitely NOT better than the other. I like both, but if I had to choose I would prefer alignment. Especially if alignment would have mattered as much in poe as it did in BG1. I really loved how your alignment determined what kind of Bhaal powers you got.

 

Play evil? Get a power where you drain the life out of others; like the jerk you are. 

 

Play good? Get a power to heal yourself and others; like a nice guy.

 

Made that game not only different, but different mechanically; which I consider more important than how it affects the story. 

[Immortalis]

 

This is getting ridiculous, you are still insisting on telling me that its a fact that the change to the alignment system was an improvement?

 

 

Agreed. Reputation is far from an improvement over alignment. It's just different. 

 

Reputation: How people perceive you.

Alignment: How you actually are.

 

One is definitely NOT better than the other. I like both, but if I had to choose I would prefer alignment. Especially if alignment would have mattered as much in poe as it did in BG1. I really loved how your alignment determined what kind of Bhaal powers you got.

 

Play evil? Get a power where you drain the life out of others; like the jerk you are. 

 

Play good? Get a power to heal yourself and others; like a nice guy.

 

Made that game not only different, but different mechanically; which I consider more important than how it affects the story. 

 

 

My point is.. the reputation system has clear archetypes like.. ****y or Aggressive or Honest.. these archetypes have replaced the Lawful Evil / Chaotic Good archetypes.

 

Those old archetypes were useless except for certain dialogue choices and class choices.. they sucked.. I see this new system as a merging and improvement of reputation (a number that says whether guards attack you or not) and your alignment (basically useless)

 

I think those systems naturally blend together nicely.. whereas in the IE games.. a low reputation basically screwed you in every way except to get certain companions..

Edited September 6, 2014 by Immortalis

[Namutree]

 

 

This is getting ridiculous, you are still insisting on telling me that its a fact that the change to the alignment system was an improvement?

 

 

Agreed. Reputation is far from an improvement over alignment. It's just different. 

 

Reputation: How people perceive you.

Alignment: How you actually are.

 

One is definitely NOT better than the other. I like both, but if I had to choose I would prefer alignment. Especially if alignment would have mattered as much in poe as it did in BG1. I really loved how your alignment determined what kind of Bhaal powers you got.

 

Play evil? Get a power where you drain the life out of others; like the jerk you are. 

 

Play good? Get a power to heal yourself and others; like a nice guy.

 

Made that game not only different, but different mechanically; which I consider more important than how it affects the story. 

 

 

My point is.. the reputation system has clear archetypes like.. ****y or Aggressive or Honest.. these archetypes have replaced the Lawful Evil / Chaotic Good archetypes.

 

Those old archetypes were useless except for certain dialogue choices and class choices.. they sucked.. I see this new system as a merging and improvement of reputation (a number that says whether guards attack you or not) and your alignment (basically useless)

 

I think those systems naturally blend together nicely.. whereas in the IE games.. a low reputation basically screwed you in every way except to get certain companions..

 

As I have already said, reputation only affects how people perceive you; not as you really are. The BTK killer was a preacher and did little good deeds all the time; he would have had a good reputation, but inside... He was/is a monster.

 

Reputation is not the same as alignment, and though you may prefer it; it can NEVER convey what alignment conveys. The new reputation system is a consolation for the removal of alignment, but not an improvement. Having BOTH would have been an improvement.