The contribution women make towards gaming development

[Volourn]

What's irrelevant is the gender of a game developer. I don't give a crap. It means nothing to me. It should mean nothing to you if you believed in true equality but I get it. You are a feminist and don't believe in true equality.

[BruceVC]

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed

 

Guys for those interested in how women have been marginalized as far as the target market has always been men for development companies and publishers I suggest you read this article

 

Its long but very pertinent and gives an objective opinion around this issue. If you understand the history you may be less resistance to the expected change

Edited August 29, 2014 by BruceVC

[Nepenthe]

I think a part of this discussion is based on the fact that, even in Western countries, there are significant differences in actual gender equality. This is something that the Internet, as a melting pot, blurs, leading to such absurdities as slutwalks all over the world, when the core issue was what some sheriff in bum****, arizona had said...

 

Now, I'm going to posit that I live in (one of) the most equal countries in the world. Everybody has actually the same opportunities. What feminism fails to grasp is that equal opportunities is what actual equality is vs. if everything isn't at least 50 % women, there's a gender imbalance that needs to be addressed. I personally consider the argument that all differences between genders are cultural to be blatantly fallacious.

[BruceVC]

I think a part of this discussion is based on the fact that, even in Western countries, there are significant differences in actual gender equality. This is something that the Internet, as a melting pot, blurs, leading to such absurdities as slutwalks all over the world, when the core issue was what some sheriff in bum****, arizona had said...

 

Now, I'm going to posit that I live in (one of) the most equal countries in the world. Everybody has actually the same opportunities. What feminism fails to grasp is that equal opportunities is what actual equality is vs. if everything isn't at least 50 % women, there's a gender imbalance that needs to be addressed. I personally consider the argument that all differences between genders are cultural to be blatantly fallacious.

 

This is an interesting perspective, just so I am clear from a Finnish perspective, and based around the fact Finland is a very equal society, what are current issues with what Feminists want in Finland.  For example  are you saying that there is pressure to put women in jobs that they aren't necessarily qualified for?

[Fighter]

I'm genuinely interested in what you think will happen when "they will police everything and allow only what is appropriate in" ?

 

Can you give some examples of what will change in gaming if this is  allowed to happen because I am unclear around what you mean?

 

What will happen is that game devs will not be free to make games however they want despite the fact that they like it that way and their audience likes it that way. Because they will be afraid of the outrage squad that is going to monopolize the discussion in the gaming media.

[Chairchucker]

What's irrelevant is the gender of a game developer. I don't give a crap. It means nothing to me. It should mean nothing to you if you believed in true equality but I get it. You are a feminist and don't believe in true equality.

 

This reminds me of a video I watched the other day. It was on whatever show Jon Stewart was on, and he was talking about the whole Ferguson situation, and how it was being reported on. There was a quick montage of comments from predominantly Fox affiliated reporters, and Stewart paused it after one of them said 'you know who talks about race? Racists!'

 

Now, it would be easy for me, as a white male who has enjoyed the privilege my race and gender affords me, to pretend that the fact that black people are underrepresented in high paying jobs and over represented in prison, slums, clubs and being on the wrong end of shootings from police officers is because, dang it all, those darn negros are just predisposed towards criminal activity.

 

So tell me, would it be more racist of me to think that there is something wrong when this disparity exists, or to think that there isn't?

 

And once you've answered that question, maybe you'd like to join the remaining dot and decide whether, actually, it is in fact the sexists who think there's an issue when female are under represented in certain fields.

[BruceVC]

 

I'm genuinely interested in what you think will happen when "they will police everything and allow only what is appropriate in" ?

 

Can you give some examples of what will change in gaming if this is  allowed to happen because I am unclear around what you mean?

 

What will happen is that game devs will not be free to make games however they want despite the fact that they like it that way and their audience likes it that way. Because they will be afraid of the outrage squad that is going to monopolize the discussion in the gaming media.

 

 

But you haven't answered my question, I want you to give me practical examples of what game component would be omitted if people who are concerned with gender equality were more influential in gaming design and development. What would we be missing out on?

[Orogun01]

You guys keep making the same points that you feel besieged by various SJ initiatives. Is that honestly how you feel, that the various attempts to  raise awareness around issues like the fair representation of the genders in games is about an attack on male gamers?

 

I wont disagree that there are some extreme views but are all SJ endeavours around gaming that bad? And if you agree that there are some that are valid and worthwhile why can we not focus on those and not the Anita campaigns that I understand annoy  most of you? Its like there is no middle ground, either you support Anita or you are vociferously against her and what she stands for

Awareness is no longer a concern, the entire industry has lent an ear to this issue ever since the Women vs. Tropes videos. There has been enough support gathered that Gawker media has made a career of catering to them. The problem is that SJW has become a business for these people who would lose if suddenly their number one source of revenue would go away. So for all the awareness there hasn't been anything done and the attempt to remedy that has become a point of contention on this debate, because it has been largely ignored and demonized by these media outlets.

People just see it for what it is, because from the moment this became an issue the opposition has been following all the SJW moves which is why they have come up with so much evidence during this whole ordeal. The fact is that in a few weeks those that the SJW decry as misogynistic neckbeards have made a more concrete contribution to the cause than the SJW who have used their network to turn this issue into a career. I guarantee you that those bloggers turned journalist; which I'm sure that were picked because of their political leanings on the first place since Gawker is the project of someone who either shares those views or though to use them for profit, would not find employment with any real media outlet.

We are not threatened by those views we are just tired of the business they run at our expense, we are tired of being shamed for the way we are and for the things we like, we are tired of being told that we should accept a value system that would emasculate us so that other people's feelings will be safe.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to rant. 

[kirottu]

https://twitter.com/PoG_Chris/status/505183134246506496/photo/1

 

There are three threads where I could have posted this and frankly this is getting slightly confusing. 

Edited August 29, 2014 by kirottu

[BruceVC]

 

You guys keep making the same points that you feel besieged by various SJ initiatives. Is that honestly how you feel, that the various attempts to  raise awareness around issues like the fair representation of the genders in games is about an attack on male gamers?

 

I wont disagree that there are some extreme views but are all SJ endeavours around gaming that bad? And if you agree that there are some that are valid and worthwhile why can we not focus on those and not the Anita campaigns that I understand annoy  most of you? Its like there is no middle ground, either you support Anita or you are vociferously against her and what she stands for

Awareness is no longer a concern, the entire industry has lent an ear to this issue ever since the Women vs. Tropes videos. There has been enough support gathered that Gawker media has made a career of catering to them. The problem is that SJW has become a business for these people who would lose if suddenly their number one source of revenue would go away. So for all the awareness there hasn't been anything done and the attempt to remedy that has become a point of contention on this debate, because it has been largely ignored and demonized by these media outlets.

People just see it for what it is, because from the moment this became an issue the opposition has been following all the SJW moves which is why they have come up with so much evidence during this whole ordeal. The fact is that in a few weeks those that the SJW decry as misogynistic neckbeards have made a more concrete contribution to the cause than the SJW who have used their network to turn this issue into a career. I guarantee you that those bloggers turned journalist; which I'm sure that were picked because of their political leanings on the first place since Gawker is the project of someone who either shares those views or though to use them for profit, would not find employment with any real media outlet.

We are not threatened by those views we are just tired of the business they run at our expense, we are tired of being shamed for the way we are and for the things we like, we are tired of being told that we should accept a value system that would emasculate us so that other people's feelings will be safe.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to rant. 

 

 

This is a very interesting and informative post, thanks for sharing.

 

I'll comment later because I'm at work now

[Nepenthe]

 

I think a part of this discussion is based on the fact that, even in Western countries, there are significant differences in actual gender equality. This is something that the Internet, as a melting pot, blurs, leading to such absurdities as slutwalks all over the world, when the core issue was what some sheriff in bum****, arizona had said...

 

Now, I'm going to posit that I live in (one of) the most equal countries in the world. Everybody has actually the same opportunities. What feminism fails to grasp is that equal opportunities is what actual equality is vs. if everything isn't at least 50 % women, there's a gender imbalance that needs to be addressed. I personally consider the argument that all differences between genders are cultural to be blatantly fallacious.

 

This is an interesting perspective, just so I am clear from a Finnish perspective, and based around the fact Finland is a very equal society, what are current issues with what Feminists want in Finland.  For example  are you saying that there is pressure to put women in jobs that they aren't necessarily qualified for?

 

 

Classic example. At least x % of board members in listed companies should be women. Why only listed companies, the one that have already made it? I have a startup with a bunch of my male friends, we work our butts off for a decade and instead of selling to google/apple, choose to get listed. Immediately we have to hire a bunch of extraneous women to enjoy the fruits of our labour?

 

Quotas in general are what I'm opposed to. They don't remove barriers, they create factual inequality.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

We are not threatened by those views we are just tired of the business they run at our expense, we are tired of being shamed for the way we are and for the things we like, we are tired of being told that we should accept a value system that would emasculate us so that other people's feelings will be safe.

 

 

The... what now?

[Nepenthe]

• Anders: Isabela, you never talk about the mages' plight.

Isabela: What's there to say?

Anders: There's plenty to say.

Isabela: And you say enough for the lot of us, don't you think?

Anders: So you're telling me you have no opinion on the matter?

Isabela: None whatsoever!

Anders: That can't be true.

Isabela: No, I'm afraid I'm really this shallow.

[BruceVC]

 

 

I think a part of this discussion is based on the fact that, even in Western countries, there are significant differences in actual gender equality. This is something that the Internet, as a melting pot, blurs, leading to such absurdities as slutwalks all over the world, when the core issue was what some sheriff in bum****, arizona had said...

 

Now, I'm going to posit that I live in (one of) the most equal countries in the world. Everybody has actually the same opportunities. What feminism fails to grasp is that equal opportunities is what actual equality is vs. if everything isn't at least 50 % women, there's a gender imbalance that needs to be addressed. I personally consider the argument that all differences between genders are cultural to be blatantly fallacious.

 

This is an interesting perspective, just so I am clear from a Finnish perspective, and based around the fact Finland is a very equal society, what are current issues with what Feminists want in Finland.  For example  are you saying that there is pressure to put women in jobs that they aren't necessarily qualified for?

 

 

Classic example. At least x % of board members in listed companies should be women. Why only listed companies, the one that have already made it? I have a startup with a bunch of my male friends, we work our butts off for a decade and instead of selling to google/apple, choose to get listed. Immediately we have to hire a bunch of extraneous women to enjoy the fruits of our labour?

 

Quotas in general are what I'm opposed to. They don't remove barriers, they create factual inequality.

 

 

Okay I understand your frustration is this type of example

 

It is similar to Orog's point he has made in the past where indie companies work hard to develop a game and then get criticized for not being inclusive enough even though there are budgetary restraints around the project

 

Going back to your point, I agree that is wrong. In Africa, and particularly Zimbabwe, they have this policy called Indigenisation where foreign companies are suppose to sell 51 % of there business to local people. Its a joke and a disgrace , why must I invest in a country, hire people and train staff, pay tax and then be expected to sell half my company to someone who has never worked a day in his  life to contribute towards that company? And people wonder why the Zimbabwe economy is in such an appalling state

 

But I am not expecting that type of change around feminism or gender equality. In the context of games I just expect games to not portray women in a demeaning way or to objectify them. And if the budget allows to have a way for fans to play a female character.

[Meshugger]

Why not?

 

- Should Slayer compose songs that appeal more to minorities? After all, more black people listen to them than before.

Music seems like a different bag of fish to visual mediums. The content of Slayer's music doesn't depict or exclude any ethnic groups as far as I'm aware.

 

- Should George RR Martin write in characters that appeal more to women? After all, more women read his books than before.

"Appeal more to women" is a vague and meaningless platitude. What fantasy writers should do is write female characters that aren't simply props, prizes or whatever and instead individuals with their own thoughts, motivations and so on like male characters.

 

GRRM's depiction of women is certainly mixed but at the very least better than most male fantasy writers.

 

- Should Paul Thomas Andersson direct a movie that includes transgender people? After all, more transgenders watch his movies than before.

Why not?

 

 

You missed the point completely. It's not whether they are personally interested in such things or not. The point is that artists should never compromise on their integrity based on what a journalist or any other mob of people think on what they should do.

 

The very notion that these people think that it is a good idea shows that they are utterly rotten and dead on the inside. They have more in common with gay-bashing politicians that are caught giving a blowjob in the men's restroom, priests talking about the sanctity of celibacy while they molest preteen boys and with the businessmen who lets their own company burn so that they can get a better indexratio on their hedge-fonds.

[Nepenthe]

Going back to your point, I agree that is wrong. In Africa, and particularly Zimbabwe, they have this policy called Indigenisation where foreign companies are suppose to sell 51 % of there business to local people. Its a joke and a disgrace , why must I invest in a country, hire people and train staff, pay tax and then be expected to sell half my company to someone who has never worked a day in his  life to contribute towards that company? And people wonder why the Zimbabwe economy is in such an appalling state

 

But I am not expecting that type of change around feminism or gender equality. In the context of games I just expect games to not portray women in a demeaning way or to objectify them. And if the budget allows to have a way for fans to play a female character.

 

But that is what the EU and several of its member countries independently are pushing forward as the solution to all issues! So you can see how I'm extremely leery of all these "people should do x in the name of social justice", because, well, your example of Zimbabwe is better than anything I could think of

[Fighter]

But you haven't answered my question, I want you to give me practical examples of what game component would be omitted if people who are concerned with gender equality were more influential in gaming design and development. What would we be missing out on?

 

First of all nothing should be omitted. Because even your usual "objectification" perpetrator like bouncy boobed Dead or Alive volleyball is not something I see a problem with. As silly as that is, it is a male sexual fantasy that has a right to be made.

 

Second it won't stop there. The real issue is that content producers will de facto be subject through a screening process of a small clique of censors that no one asked for. Average gamer certainly didn't. And it's even questionable if the average woman did. That is the opposite of diversity.

 

The collective Anita isn't so much interested in providing for all people. It's not about asking you what you want it's about allowing you what they have decided is good for you. The main line Anita pedals these days is that media is shaping society, but it's doing it wrong. And she wants to shape society.

 

Feminists often say they want diversity and for different voices to be heard. But the atmosphere they've created is that you're either with them or you're with the people who send death & rape threats. Nothing in between, no nuance, no allowance for complexity.

 

You must be a rape apologist dare you suggest a rape victim used poor judgement in her choices. You see women as objects dare you dig that certain art style and design. The very fact that you have white skin, a ****, and like girls invalidates your opinion on the matter and I will openly tell you so with a straight face, but even a hint of the reverse and you're the worst of scum. I will judge you by the worst example among you, but remember that not all feminists are the same. I will also never confront the worst amongst us, but you must take a stand against the bigots and the trolls.

[Malcador]

Well, if SJWs took over, all our games would be artsy stuff like Dear Esther or Mountain rather than anything else, heh. It is really amusing to read their Twitter accounts, is a pretty good clique.

[Amentep]

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed

 

Guys for those interested in how women have been marginalized as far as the target market has always been men for development companies and publishers I suggest you read this article

 

Its long but very pertinent and gives an objective opinion around this issue. If you understand the history you may be less resistance to the expected change

I liked the page layout and the design sense.

 

But the author reveals some suspect logic, IMO, very quickly -

 

"Would it be fair for all the girls to buy princesses and the boys to buy superheroes?" she says, smacking her right hand to her head in exasperation. "Girls want superheroes AND the boys want superheroes!"

 

She points her index finger and shakes her hand at the pink boxes around her. Occasionally jumbling her words while giving her impassioned speech, she questions why boys and girls need separate toy aisles and why some toys are designated for one gender and not the other. Boys and girls can both like pink, she says. Why do companies have to make boys and girls think that they can only like certain things? Palm open, she hits her right hand on the top of one of the boxes to emphasize her point.

followed by

 

The stereotype, for example, does not explain why "girls don't play video games." It does not reveal who or what is responsible for it. It does not explain how an industry that started with games like Pong (1972) or the first computer version of Tic-Tac-Toe (1959) came to be responsible for a medium that, for most of its history, hasn't had even an aisle's worth of games for Maida.

Emphasis mine, but isn't "Maida's point" that there shouldn't *be* a distinction (ie there shouldn't be an aisle for Maida, but an aisle for all kids with all kinds of toys), not that there hasn't been enough stuff made for her (to form her own aisle)?

Edited August 29, 2014 by Amentep

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Well, if SJWs took over, all our games would be artsy stuff like Dear Esther or Mountain rather than anything else, heh. It is really amusing to read their Twitter accounts, is a pretty good clique.

Relevant.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=257887508

[Nonek]

 

Well, if SJWs took over, all our games would be artsy stuff like Dear Esther or Mountain rather than anything else, heh. It is really amusing to read their Twitter accounts, is a pretty good clique.

Relevant.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=257887508

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOoXwxqeVzg

[HoonDing]

Reading all this SJW nonsense almost makes you wish for a Caliphate takeover.

[Malcador]

 

 

 

 

Good old SJWs.

[Meshugger]

More: http://leighalexander.net/faq/

 

 

No wonder they have more respect for ISIS. They have simply more in common with them than normies who just like to play a game.

[Fighter]

Oh my the woman sweats acid.