True non linear story line

[Karkarov]

 

 Some Elder Scrolls games are even so open on plot you can kill key storyline npcs and still clear the main plot.

 

 

I don't remember how things were in games before Morrowind, but in Morrowind even though you were able to kill storyline NPCs, killing them unable your ability to complete main plot and game informs player that this is the case (like for example killing Vivec) , in Oblivion and Skyrim you can't kill storyline NPCs until their role in plot is fulfilled. 

 

Nope not true.  It warned you in morrowind yes, but there were still ways to complete the main plot even if you whacked vivec for example.  There was a certain combination of 2-3 dudes though (vivec being one) that if you killed all of them you were hosed.

[Ulquiorra]

 

Nonlinear plot meant that 1 decision leads to andother, then means that if we for example make decision numer 1, all decision that coud be unlocked by taking decision number 2 or number 3 are closed.

Uh, no, that's not what non-linear means. At all. Nonlinear is when the order of decisions and story elements isn't fixed.

 

If you were to graphically display them, linear would simply be a long(or not so long) line with one quest and story portion neatly arranged after the other and no options on how to proceed(at most allowing you to skip some trivial steps, like not having to ask around when you already know who to deliver your 20 bear asses to).

Novels are usually linear as well, telling a story from first to last page in order.

 

Halflinear or branching storylines would at certain quests branch out and create additional, in itself still linear, storylines. Basically, you have multiple linear stories with a certain amount of common elements.

 

Nonlinear can be anything where you have no fixed order. Sidequests are often non-linear. Usually this has a weak or nonexistent overarching storyline.

 

 

 

Order of decisions also may conclude from other decisions, for example you decide to kill a princes, now you may kill evil price, or lie to him. But if youe recuse him te decision about "killing" him mayby done later.

[Azrael Ultima]

Order of decisions also may conclude from other decisions, for example you decide to kill a princes, now you may kill evil price, or lie to him. But if youe recuse him te decision about "killing" him mayby done later.

Key word being "may". That's not a defining mark of nonlinear stories or gameplay.

[Utukka]

A truly nonlinear story line is nearly impossible because you're essentially making a new game if you branch off drastically. Games are linear because it saves you time and $ on content(theoretically). It also saves them from having to listen to players bitch and moan about the game not being long enough.

 

50 hours of linear required gameplay VS a game that offers 2 sets of 25 hours worth of gameplay(good or evil route is each 25 hours for a total of 50)

 

^ Game 2 will get **** for "being short" despite offering the same overall amount of gameplay.

[JosieNutter]

I like the idea of non-linear story line(s), but you kind of need a small horde of decent designer-writers collaborating to pull it off properly (unless you have a few rockstars with poor life-work balance). Most publishers will not see the ROI in that sort of thing, and most smaller indie teams will need to spend that time on other tasks.

[Marcvs Caesar]

Role-playing games aren't supposed to have a linear story, if they do then they aren't role-playing games.
As for games in general, basically: Linear = dislike; Half-linear = neutral; Non-linear = like.

 

If I don't have any sort of input into the story in video games then I probably won't care about the story, usually.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Marcvs Caesar

[redneckdevil]

 

 

If you were to graphically display them, linear would simply be a long(or not so long) line with one quest and story portion neatly arranged after the other and no options on how to proceed(at most allowing you to skip some trivial steps, like not having to ask around when you already know who to deliver your 20 bear asses to).Novels are usually linear as well, telling a story from first to last page in order.

 

Halflinear or branching storylines would at certain quests branch out and create additional, in itself still linear, storylines. Basically, you have multiple linear stories with a certain amount of common elements.

 

Nonlinear can be anything where you have no fixed order. Sidequests are often non-linear. Usually this has a weak or nonexistent overarching storyline.

Well said. How about some clear examples.

 

Linear Story = Baldur's Gate 1. There are side quests but they have no effect on the main plot and you have to do the main plot in order.

 

Partially Linear = Mass Effect 1. You don't have to follow plot in a specific order.... but you do have to do all major plot events. There are some side quests and they have slight influence on the story.

 

Non Linear = Elder Scrolls. Yeah there is a story, but it is pretty weak. Most people ignore it, and would rather just run around and do all the faction/side stuff which can have a big impact on the game world. Meanwhile the main story in many ways can be done out of order and you can even accidentally wander into some parts of it. Some Elder Scrolls games are even so open on plot you can kill key storyline npcs and still clear the main plot.

 

Meanwhile.... who hired you to get all that bear ass exactly, what is wrong with them, what do they need all that ass for, and how exactly are you carrying the 20 bear ass in question?

Ok elder scrolls though with oblivion and skyrim are actually VERY linear. Most people see them as nonlinear simply because they chose to do the quests or not BUT if they chose to do so its very much on the rails. It just hides it by being a sandbox world butbu ae still "stuck" at a certain moment in the storyline if u do not follow the rails.

[Sheikh]

The question is not whether we want to play nonlinear games or not (we do), but how to implement this nonlinearity to achieve the most nonlinearity as is possible. I think though we always need to be looking to do things better and not be shy to go with innovation to achieve this.

 

 

I like the idea of non-linear story line(s), but you kind of need a small horde of decent designer-writers collaborating to pull it off properly

Hello, welcome and I love you!

 

But how do you propose to know this - have you done game design and writing in practice yourself?

Edited November 28, 2014 by Sheikh

[Bryy]

... well, that's basic game design. Communication.

[Valmy]

I would like to play the good storyline in whatever way best tells the story.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Valmy

[Valmy]

 

Ok elder scrolls though with oblivion and skyrim are actually VERY linear. Most people see them as nonlinear simply because they chose to do the quests or not BUT if they chose to do so its very much on the rails. It just hides it by being a sandbox world butbu ae still "stuck" at a certain moment in the storyline if u do not follow the rails.

 

 

Yeah if you do the plot of the games there are not usually a ton of choices to make.  Daggerfall stands out as an exception of sorts.  Even with that bizarre way they got out of how the game world was effected.

[Bryy]

More reactivity = more programming + testing = more time and resources.

 

Not to mention if you want to add in a new cutscene or animations.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Bryy

[Shevek]

Both linear and nonlinear designs have merits. I will say my favorite part of BG2 was the beginning when I could just roam around and do quests and pick up NPCs in whatever order I saw fit. Every time I replay the game, that is always the section I enjoy the most. After that, game feels like it drags a bit.

 

As far as endings, I like the Fallout slideshow of consequences.

[Sheikh]

... well, that's basic game design. Communication.

Yeah but unless you are speaking from practice, telling us we need y to achieve x is really ****ing useless. Everyone can find their own way to achieve x through y or through z or whatever and you just dont ****ing know that x through y is THE ONLY way as you both claim. You dont know that.

[redneckdevil]

 

 

 

Ok elder scrolls though with oblivion and skyrim are actually VERY linear. Most people see them as nonlinear simply because they chose to do the quests or not BUT if they chose to do so its very much on the rails. It just hides it by being a sandbox world butbu ae still "stuck" at a certain moment in the storyline if u do not follow the rails.

 

Yeah if you do the plot of the games there are not usually a ton of choices to make. Daggerfall stands out as an exception of sorts. Even with that bizarre way they got out of how the game world was effected.

And also morrowind, hence why i called oblivion and skyrim because in those games, main quest and side quests u could only do them 1 way. The quests were very on the rails. Most people see them as nonlinear because they give a sandbox world with places to explore and u can roleplay in ur head whatever u want, but the actual quests u do are very railroaded.

[Nakia]

I think Arcanum came close to being non-linear with many twists to the ending depending on your choices.

[Bryy]

 

... well, that's basic game design. Communication.

Yeah but unless you are speaking from practice, telling us we need y to achieve x is really ****ing useless. Everyone can find their own way to achieve x through y or through z or whatever and you just dont ****ing know that x through y is THE ONLY way as you both claim. You dont know that.

 

You are getting way too worked up over some people telling you answers to your questions.

 

Obsidian are not magicians. What will be in the game will be in the game.

[Lephys]

I don't so much mind a story being linear (although it's nice when there's enough variance to not have the exact same playthrough every time), but what I can't stand is gameplay being linear. Always do the same areas in the same order, every level is basically one big corridor, you always get this upgrade after this other upgrade, etc.

 

Well, now that I say that, I realize that pretty much every Legend of Zelda game is like that, and I enjoy those games for what they are. So, I guess everything really has its place. But, when it comes down to actual RPGs (and not just action/platformer/puzzle games with RPG-like progression), I much prefer dynamic gameplay, even if it's accompanied by a heavily linear story.

[Sheikh]

 I much prefer dynamic gameplay, even if it's accompanied by a heavily linear story.

 I agree with this, but on the other hand I enjoyed a game called Tactical Ops despite it not having dynamic gameplay.

[constantine]

On the latest update (#87) it is mentionted that one of the play-testers reached an early game ending.

 

Now that is a step towards the right direction !

 

It will be great if Pillars features multiple endings and meaningful player choices.

 

Another thing that will also add to that is if companions interact with such choices in a substantial manner (like when shown in the demo and more like that)

 

Lastly, I would like to expect much from the disposition system (reputation), much more than NPC comments, like quest trees opening up for certain dispositions and not just the usual cruel, a.k.a 'evil' and benevolent (good), but also for other ones, like clever or diplomatic.

 

Let's be honest, should Pillars involve all those features it will be a breakthrough to role-playing games. No other rpg has come even close to that.

 

But of course, all that matters is that all these features have *actual* meaning in-game for that to be achieved.

 

Pillars of Eternity, the most interactive rpg of all time ? I surely hope so. Future will tell.

[Emc2]

Being non-linear doesn't necessarily mean you have to have multiple endings in the main story. What really matters (IMO) is the stuff you can do during the story/quest.

 

Dark Souls did the choices pretty well, compared to most recent RPGs. If you took master key at the behinning, you could explore a huge chunk of the world and beat some of the first bosses in any order you want or not beat some at all. You can also decide to kill certain "innocent" NPCs to get access to some places early or to get items not accessible otherwise. Even though your decisions don't have much impact on the game itself, it still felt more free than Mass Effect or DA:O.

 

In Chrono trigger you have total of 12 different endings (not counting slightly different variations) depending on when and how you beat the final boss. You can even beat the boss halfway through the full game. Still, the game felt more linear than Dark Souls.

 

Non-linearity can be easily applied to sidequests to make the game feel less linear by tying the quests together (for example: both require you to do same thing, therefore motivating you to do the required thing or completing first quest prevents you from completing the second quest by using the same unique items in fetch quests). This was done well in Planescape: Torment

 

I personally wouldn't be too worried about the quest desing. That early ending thing was enough proof for me.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Emc2

[Sheikh]

On the latest update (#87) it is mentionted that one of the play-testers reached an early game ending.

 

Now that is a step towards the right direction !

 

It will be great if Pillars features multiple endings and meaningful player choices.

 

Another thing that will also add to that is if companions interact with such choices in a substantial manner (like when shown in the demo and more like that)

 

Lastly, I would like to expect much from the disposition system (reputation), much more than NPC comments, like quest trees opening up for certain dispositions and not just the usual cruel, a.k.a 'evil' and benevolent (good), but also for other ones, like clever or diplomatic.

 

Let's be honest, should Pillars involve all those features it will be a breakthrough to role-playing games. No other rpg has come even close to that.

 

But of course, all that matters is that all these features have *actual* meaning in-game for that to be achieved.

 

Pillars of Eternity, the most interactive rpg of all time ? I surely hope so. Future will tell.

Nice post high fiiiive!

I personally wouldn't be too worried about the quest desing

Translation: I am worried about the quests 

Edited December 1, 2014 by Sheikh