Superweapons

[limaxophobiacq]

The IE games, BG2 in particular, had certain items that were just incredibly powerfull in the right hands, far beyond anything else you could find or buy in that category: Carsomyr, Crom Feyer, The Staff of the Magi, the Flail of Ages and Celestial Fury. Weapons that defined the way the character wielding them played with unique abilties going a great deal beyond just doing damage.

 

Balanced? Not very perhaps but exciting when you got your hands on them and memorable to this day, and in ToB they at least made an attempt to make 1 such superweapon available for all weapon proficiencies (which I think if they were included in PoE or a sequel they should try again, or do it like in Heart of WInter when you forged that weapon out of the ice and it let you choose what kind of weapon it is Edit: actually the later is probably preferable), though Carsomyr still might still have had no real equal.

 

Do you think these kinds of unique and incredibly powerfull weapons should have a place in PoE. Or do you think as a game supposed to be more low-level like BG1 they should wait with it for an expansion or sequel (I'm personally inclined to this)? Or do you think having such powerfull items is too big a blow to game-balance to ever include?

Edited August 23, 2014 by limaxophobiacq

[PrimeJunta]

I don't have anything against them in principle. My only objection is if there are too many of them. If you can equip your entire party with superweapons then they're not so super anymore. Carsomyr notwithstanding, BG2 had rather too many IMO, as a consequence of attempting to cater to all weapon categories.

 

A better approach IMO is to give the player a measure of control over which type of superweapon he acquires, and then only have one in the entire game. It could be a quest where the weapon is crafted, or it could perhaps be a unique blessing on an existing weapon from a god.

 

What I would really like to avoid is magic inflation, where über-powerful magical loot is all over the place and if you're not rocking +5 everything by the end of the game you feel like you're slumming. Powerful magic items should be very rare and very impactful.

[Sarex]

I'm all for it but in a higher level game, so sequel.

[Guest Madolite]

As long as the power of a character stays balanced through 95% of the game content, I'm all for superweapons (or legendary weapons, as the FF series call them). By the time you get these items, the whole point of the game has gone far beyond mere progression anyways, although in the FF series they often couple superweapons with superbosses which I find to be awesome. So developers don't have to be afraid of overpowering the player, because the players who play at that point are almost purely completionists and achievers.

 

Icewind Dale did this expertly, they had improved weapons (e.g. "Fine") early in the game (without going completely overboard with 10+ different quality levels and every one of them dropping everywhere), as a way to smoothen the gap between normal and magic weapons. For Pillars of Destiny, I wouldn't mind seeing BG1-type unique armor and weapons like the "Shadow Armor" and various named weapons. In a sense, these were the "legendaries" of BG1. In BG2, you had higher tiers of legendaries. In ToB, you could even upgrade those higher legendaries to be ultra-powerful.

 

But as Sarex points out, the truly legendary "Ultimate Hackmaster +10 of Armageddon" weapons should definitely be reserved for the absolute highest level ranges. They should be the absolute last weapons you get before beating the game or otherwise secret weapons only available at the main story's very end.

 

As a sidenote, notice in BG1 that the Shadow Armor has no level requirement, it just costs a crap-ton of gold. *hint hint to certain devs today who put Lv. Req on items*. Also, notice how "Dagger of Venom" feels generic in a "random-affix" game (like Diablo etc), whereas the Dagger of Venom in BG1 felt completely unique. Identical name, different presentation.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Madolite

[ManifestedISO]

Yes, definitely, please, a rare weapon suitable for 11th- or 12th-level play. Since Josh mentioned we'll be able to improve magical weapons, maybe the rarity of a superweapon is because it cannot be upgraded. 

[Guest Madolite]

Yes, definitely, please, a rare weapon suitable for 11th- or 12th-level play. Since Josh mentioned we'll be able to improve magical weapons, maybe the rarity of a superweapon is because it cannot be upgraded. 

 

Or perhaps that you cannot find them naturally, because they're what you end up with when you upgrade other weapons to max.

[limaxophobiacq]

 

Yes, definitely, please, a rare weapon suitable for 11th- or 12th-level play. Since Josh mentioned we'll be able to improve magical weapons, maybe the rarity of a superweapon is because it cannot be upgraded. 

 

Or perhaps that you cannot find them naturally, because they're what you end up with when you upgrade other weapons to max.

 

 

Upprading would generally just mean higher numbers that regular weapons, which isn't really all that interesting.

 

Carsomyr was amazing for the insane magic resistance and dispel-on-hit, Flail of Ages for the slow effect, Celestial Fury for the stun, and Staff of the Magi for too many effects to count.

[Azrael Ultima]

We probably shouldn't run around with the truly legendary stuff, but i don't see the issue with having a bunch of unique endgame weapons, as long as availability(but not variety) and power stay in line with the limitations of the setting.

[prodigydancer]

It's hard to answer this question out of context. Varscona qualified for a superweapon in BG because you could get it very early without too much trouble. But I think it was acceptable. On the other hand Drizzt's scimitars were seriously overpowered (though practically unobtainable without cheating or abusing summons).

 

As a sidenote, notice in BG1 that the Shadow Armor has no level requirement, it just costs a crap-ton of gold. *hint hint to certain devs today who put Lv. Req on items*.

Indeed, level requirements suck. It's just lazy design.

Edited August 24, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Sensuki]

It's hard to answer this question out of context. Varscona qualified for a superweapon in BG because you could get it very early without too much trouble. But I think it was acceptable. On the other hand Drizzt's scimitars were seriously overpowered (though practically unobtainable without cheating or abusing summons).

 

Frostbrand is easy to get if you pre-buy some thieving potions from high hedge.

 

I think little exploits like this are fun, even if they're not supposed to work.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Here's a curve ball version of super-weapons that's always a risk: Crafting in MotB was so unbalanced that you could stack elemental damage onto any weapon and turn it into a super-weapon. It certainly wrecked all level-balancing, so I'd like to bring up a shaky, grumpy finger of warning for that. In general, I'd like to see unique weapons that allow for new ways to overcome certain combat obstacles, but weapons should never be nukes in a CRPG like this - they should make sense in the story and cultures of the world as well.

[Elzarath]

I'm all for this concept. I like two of the ideas from BG2. One being that you had components to forge certain weapons e.g. The Equalizer, Silver Sword, etc. and the other were the legendary types e.g. Carsomyr. Particularly because of the lore and the time and effort it took to acquire them. It does feel a little saturated with them by end game though.

 

On the other hand I'm not keen on crafting at all, I don't like the idea of churning out +5 swords, spears, axes, etc. like it ain't nothing. The weapons should feel special and an accomplishment, not just clicking the crafting button.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Elzarath

[PrimeJunta]

I could never bring myself to do the horrid deeds that led to the most super of superweapons in MotB though, even on my psychopath playthrough.

[NeV3rKilL]

I like the Final Fantasy system for this. YES to super weapons, but as an endgame long, hidden and difficult story-quest.

 

I hate the option to be able to obtain one super sword in the early game like dark souls does with the dragon tail. That just ruins the experience!

Edited August 24, 2014 by NeV3rKilL

[Azrael Ultima]

On the other hand I'm not keen on crafting at all, I don't like the idea of churning out +5 swords, spears, axes, etc. like it ain't nothing. The weapons should feel special and an accomplishment, not just clicking the crafting button.

Well, i don't think the accomplishment should be in swinging the hammer, but in getting the components. Can't make a dragon scale shield without dragon scales.

 

If you can just churn out enough +5 arms to equip your entire stronghold in a world where they should be rare, the gal or guy responsible for crafting or distributing crafting mats messed up and made them to easy to create. After all, if you can do that, why can't anybody else?

[Caerdon]

I don't like having too many magical items around, it makes them feel cheap, unremarkable and commonplace. SoA had a bit too much in my opinion, BG1 was much better.

 

I like to get attached to the stuff that I have, so instead of ditching the sword I've been using for half of the game for some super sword just before the final battle, I'd rather just upgrade it with some unique artefact or mystical ceremony or whatever.

 

I liked the idea of collecting parts and ingredients and forging them into items, but I think it'd be better if we had to choose between some of them because they share a common ingredient, and I'd like to be able to customize the end result more. For example, maybe Flail of Ages could've been either a one-handed or a two-handed flail depending on our choice (well, no 2-h flails in BG2...), maybe Short Bow of Gesen could've been made into Longbow of Gesen or even Crossbow of Gesen, maybe Crom Faeyr could've been a scimitar or a mace instead or maybe we had to choose between Shadow Dragon Scale and Red Dragon Scale because they shared a unique component?

 

Of course that might suck if the player uses the ingredients to create something inferior before realizing what they can be used for, but that's really a matter of how the system is implemented and designed. Maybe we could even destroy the item later and retrieve some of the ingredients so that they can be used to forge other, greater items. However, this would keep the overall amount of magic items better in check and still let us get the stuff we really want.

[rjshae]

Suggested before: feed your less powerful items to the stronghold leaders. It will improve their loyalty and strengthen the defenses.

[Sloul]

I voted yes, but not so much for super broken weapons.

Voted yes to the idea of very unique weapons that would add to gameplay value.

You said Crom Feyr, well, Crom Feyr was the solution for me to build my little halfling partner (forgot her name) into a ranger throwing hammers.

Since Crom was a +4 weapon and not pierce but crush, she would perform, for my taste, better than any bow/crossbow guys.

I remember there were other items that you would just fell in love with, like in Fallout 2, the unique energy weapon which didn't use cells, but instead would use solar energy: the perfect solution to dispatch junkies and radscorpions alike.

In Arcanum there was an helmet which would diminish you alignment by 20 (non reversible) but also add +20% to your magic affinity, I would use this helmet on every of my character to get a top-notch magical affinity.

 

I say yes to items that gives special feat, I say no to nukes.

[Gecos]

I like the Final Fantasy system for this. YES to super weapons, but as an endgame long, hidden and difficult story-quest.

 

I hate the option to be able to obtain one super sword in the early game like dark souls does with the dragon tail. That just ruins the experience!

If the super-weapon is available before the end-game battle only, it may be a little unfulfilling that you didn't have time to use it on different enemy types and in different circumstances. You know, you may actually want to play more than a bit with it and see it in action in all its glory.

[Ulquiorra]

Goddammit Brody !

 

 

"Yeah ?!"

 

Goddammit give me some fatman !

 

Goddammit give me some fatman, Brody for those goddamn orcs !

 

Edited August 24, 2014 by Ulquiorra

[Elzarath]

 

 

On the other hand I'm not keen on crafting at all, I don't like the idea of churning out +5 swords, spears, axes, etc. like it ain't nothing. The weapons should feel special and an accomplishment, not just clicking the crafting button.

Well, i don't think the accomplishment should be in swinging the hammer, but in getting the components. Can't make a dragon scale shield without dragon scales.

 

If you can just churn out enough +5 arms to equip your entire stronghold in a world where they should be rare, the gal or guy responsible for crafting or distributing crafting mats messed up and made them to easy to create. After all, if you can do that, why can't anybody else?

Yes, completely agree with you, that was what I was trying to get at but I may not have explained it clearly. The accomplishment is in collecting the components and forging the weapon.

 

I also liked the idea that one component could be used on different items, I know a couple items in ToB had this but can't remember their names. Say you find a powerful gem, do you upgrade your sword or your axe? I think it also helps to address the not every type of weapon has a end game super weapon version and allows you to forge one in line with your preferences so it's not like 'man I found this awesome spear... which no one has any proficiency to use / doesn't suit my party setup / play style / etc..'

[Shakyr]

I have fond memories of using a Mace of Disruption in BG2, against a certain annoying Demi Lich ...

So I'd be quite happy with overpowered weapons (situationally or not)

[The Guilty Party]

I think there is real enjoyment and fun to be had from crawling through some long dungeon and then finding an awesome item at the end that does cool stuff that no other weapon does and makes you noticeably more powerful. But there is a definite risk of magic inflation. As much as I like BG2, the items were getting a bit ridiculous in the end. I don't know the solution to this, but I hope it's not just 'you got a long sword +1! woo!'

[Ulquiorra]

Problem with this guy ?

 

Or problem with those guys ?

 

 

Solution:

 

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Personally, I might think about heavily restricting all magic items (having most item improvements come from superior craftsmanship and/or materials)... but then have all magic items be awesome. The concept of a `weak enchanted item` is a rather silly one, and one that occurs only in games.