"No Bad Builds" a failure in practice?

[Amentep]

 

 

 

 

ripped muscle tone with Wizards powerslamming beetles off the top of tables 

 

Just for your information, this is exactly how my muscle wizard spends his downtime.

 

 

 

I demand a muscular wizard villain in the final product of Pillars of Eternity as an Easter Egg.

 

 

 

Oh, and his catchphrase should be "KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!"

He should scream it while doing his finishing move on his enemies: the Snapmare Neckbreaker

 

 

Mighty muscle wizard villian flexes biceps, its super effective.

 

[Cabamacadaf]

 

might²

 

 

 

[mahyt]

 

noun

1.

physical strength:

He swung with all his might.

 

 

2.

superior power or strength; force:

the theory that might makes right.

 

 

3.

power or ability to do or accomplish; capacity:

the might of the ballot box.

 

 

This one, people. This one!!!

 

Yes, there is infact a reason words have more than one meaning. I'm sure if you complain REALLY hard they'll change it's name to "Power Level" and we can all make lame "may-may" jokes about being over 9000.

 

If they'd just named it Power instead of Might, some people might have one less thing to complain about. Then again, they'd probably just find something else to complain about instead.

[Karkarov]

If they'd just named it Power instead of Might, some people might have one less thing to complain about. Then again, they'd probably just find something else to complain about instead.

I do concur here.  People associate Might with Strength, but it isn't Strength, it is a reflection of the "force" or "power" of your soul.  You could be a 100 pound weakling in Eora and have a 18 or higher Might.  Changing it over to Power would be a good idea and fairly simple to implement.

[Longknife]

That's him! That's the infamous Muscle Wizard right up there, officer!

 

Arrest him! He shattered my stereotype of typical RPG archetypes!

Edited August 22, 2014 by Longknife

[PrimeJunta]

Eeh... not so sure about that Karkarov. "Power" just inevitably leads to "over 9000" and I don't want that in an IE successor...

 

I kind of like the metaphysics of Might though. It's inherent to your soul, but the way you use it determines the rest of it. A mighty individual who becomes a wizard casts powerful spells; had he picked a career as a fighter, he would've ended up with, perhaps, a different physique as well. Think of it as inherent talent, perhaps, with your class and specializations the training that actualizes the potential.

[Panteleimon]

 

 

If they'd just named it Power instead of Might, some people might have one less thing to complain about. Then again, they'd probably just find something else to complain about instead.

I do concur here.  People associate Might with Strength, but it isn't Strength, it is a reflection of the "force" or "power" of your soul.  You could be a 100 pound weakling in Eora and have a 18 or higher Might.  Changing it over to Power would be a good idea and fairly simple to implement.

 

 

 

Ugh, there's no poetry to "power". And they can't really be used interchangeably in this context. "Power" makes it sound like the end-all be all attribute of existence, which is hardly helpful. Having 18 Might doesn't mean you can crush heads like eggshells, scale Mount Everest and shoot lightning bolts out of your backside.

 

People can take a minute to educate themselves, it's ok.  PrimeJunta hit the nail on the head, I think.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Panteleimon

[Cabamacadaf]

I agree Might sounds a lot better and fits the game better, but people would be less likely to be confused about what it means if it was called Power or something.

[Longknife]

How about Killibility? Or Murderliness?

[Ondb]

 

If they'd just named it Power instead of Might, some people might have one less thing to complain about. Then again, they'd probably just find something else to complain about instead.

I do concur here.  People associate Might with Strength, but it isn't Strength, it is a reflection of the "force" or "power" of your soul.  You could be a 100 pound weakling in Eora and have a 18 or higher Might.  Changing it over to Power would be a good idea and fairly simple to implement.

 

 

If i am not mistaken ingame roleplaying options during dialogs associate Might=STR.

[DigitalCrack]

Its just a system people haven't really had the chance to learn yet.  Which some people really dislike that when they are already familiar/comfortable with a different system.  Also we haven't had near enough time playing with the current system for anyone to have a solid argument against it, especially knowing we haven't had any beta updates to fix things that make it kind of unplayable at the moment.  Or at least playable enough to properly judge any of its systems.

[Panteleimon]

 

 

If they'd just named it Power instead of Might, some people might have one less thing to complain about. Then again, they'd probably just find something else to complain about instead.

I do concur here.  People associate Might with Strength, but it isn't Strength, it is a reflection of the "force" or "power" of your soul.  You could be a 100 pound weakling in Eora and have a 18 or higher Might.  Changing it over to Power would be a good idea and fairly simple to implement.

 

 

If i am not mistaken ingame roleplaying options during dialogs associate Might=STR.

 

 

It's not the same. They associate it with the capacity to do damage. That is NOT intrinsically tied to physical strength in PoE OR in the real world.

[Fearabbit]

 

If they'd just named it Power instead of Might, some people might have one less thing to complain about. Then again, they'd probably just find something else to complain about instead.

I do concur here.  People associate Might with Strength, but it isn't Strength, it is a reflection of the "force" or "power" of your soul.  You could be a 100 pound weakling in Eora and have a 18 or higher Might.  Changing it over to Power would be a good idea and fairly simple to implement.

 

 

But this 100 pound weakling would still wreak havoc with a broadsword. He wouldn't have the right technique maybe, but he'd make tons of damage with each strike.

No, I can't really visualize this character. :/

 

(I can live with Might, but it is a strange attribute for me if we don't go down the Dragonball route where strength equals magic powers.)

Edited August 22, 2014 by Fearabbit

[Panteleimon]

 

 

If they'd just named it Power instead of Might, some people might have one less thing to complain about. Then again, they'd probably just find something else to complain about instead.

I do concur here.  People associate Might with Strength, but it isn't Strength, it is a reflection of the "force" or "power" of your soul.  You could be a 100 pound weakling in Eora and have a 18 or higher Might.  Changing it over to Power would be a good idea and fairly simple to implement.

 

 

But this 100 pound weakling would still wreak havoc with a broadsword. He wouldn't have the right technique maybe, but he'd make tons of damage with each strike.

No, I can't really visualize this character. :/

 

(I can live with Might, but it is a strange attribute for me if we don't go down the Dragonball route where strength equals magic powers.)

 

 

I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this.

 

What really matters here is his skill and training with the weapon, AKA his class IN CONJUNCTION with his attributes. As has been said, you can make an 18 Might Wizard but he still sucks in hand-to-hand or ranged combat. An 18 Might Fighter has the training and skill to apply his Might differently.

 

In the military we call it "Intestinal Fortitude". Guts.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Panteleimon

[DigitalCrack]

 

 

If they'd just named it Power instead of Might, some people might have one less thing to complain about. Then again, they'd probably just find something else to complain about instead.

I do concur here.  People associate Might with Strength, but it isn't Strength, it is a reflection of the "force" or "power" of your soul.  You could be a 100 pound weakling in Eora and have a 18 or higher Might.  Changing it over to Power would be a good idea and fairly simple to implement.

 

 

But this 100 pound weakling would still wreak havoc with a broadsword. He wouldn't have the right technique maybe, but he'd make tons of damage with each strike.

No, I can't really visualize this character. :/

 

(I can live with Might, but it is a strange attribute for me if we don't go down the Dragonball route where strength equals magic powers.)

 

why because physical strength determines the damage dealt by a swing?  I play in a city softball league in which I am by no definition "muscular" yet I out-hit guys twice my size who have muscle to spare...  My point being physical strength does not determine physical damage dealt.

[Longknife]

Let's be really lame and just change the name of Might to "Damage."

[PrimeJunta]

Why not mojo while we're at it?

[Fearabbit]

I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this.

 

What really matters here is his skill and training with the weapon, AKA his class IN CONJUNCTION with his attributes. As has been said, you can make an 18 Might Wizard but he still sucks in hand-to-hand or ranged combat. An 18 Might Fighter has the training and skill to apply his Might differently.

 

His class can be Wizard, his skill non-existent, and he'd still deal more damage with one strike than a buff Fighter who has trained his technique all his life. Or am I missing something here? That's exactly how the system works right now if I'm not mistaken. Of course the Wizard wouldn't be an effective fighter in the long run, but he'd still deal high damage with one strike, and there's nothing about his physique that really explains it.

 

If there was a game that had 2 classes - Knight and Wizard - and one of them was pure melee combat while the other was pure spellcasting - then describing their aptitude in combat with an attribute called Damage or Might is not a problem. But if you have lots of hybrids, and if Wizards can wield weapons if they want to, then the visualization problems appear.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Fearabbit

[Mayama]

Do you even lift? Is the most important question in this world.

[PrimeJunta]

His class can be Wizard, his skill non-existent, and he'd still deal more damage with one strike than a buff Fighter who has trained his technique all his life. Or am I missing something here?

Yes you're missing something. The base melee accuracy. Very Low for wizards, Very High for fighters. Your muscle wizard would be whiffing and grazing while your fighter would be hitting and critting.

[Longknife]

Do you even lift?

 

 

Jotting that one down as another combat taunt for the Muscle Wizard easter egg.

 

Obsidian devs are gonna log in the forums and be like "wtf this Longknife beta tester guy sucks. All he does is makes stupid easter egg suggestions all day..."

[Malekith]

 

 

If they'd just named it Power instead of Might, some people might have one less thing to complain about. Then again, they'd probably just find something else to complain about instead.

I do concur here.  People associate Might with Strength, but it isn't Strength, it is a reflection of the "force" or "power" of your soul.  You could be a 100 pound weakling in Eora and have a 18 or higher Might.  Changing it over to Power would be a good idea and fairly simple to implement.

 

 

But this 100 pound weakling would still wreak havoc with a broadsword. He wouldn't have the right technique maybe, but he'd make tons of damage with each strike.

No, I can't really visualize this character. :/

 

(I can live with Might, but it is a strange attribute for me if we don't go down the Dragonball route where strength equals magic powers.)

 

Think of it like in Anime. The "soul power" of the character determines how strong, fast, magicaly powerfull has the potential to be. Different characters manifest their soul power in deferent ways depending on fighting style. A 100 pound person could be able to punch through walls, another to move at unreal speeds, another to throw fireballs, depending on the way he taps his soul power.

Think more Naruto, less D&D.

 

@PrimeJunta i disagree with you that power isn't fitting. The way the stat is designed, it's basicaly soul power, so nothing wrong with naming it power. And inteligence it's basicaly soul control. Many people find the stats counter intuitive because they are. You can't have it both ways. You can't have stats designed from a gamist perspective that affect mechanical functions in a balanced way, and at the same time have them make sense and used for roleplaying the character/defining physical-personality characteristics in an intuitive way.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Malekith

[DigitalCrack]

 

I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this.

 

What really matters here is his skill and training with the weapon, AKA his class IN CONJUNCTION with his attributes. As has been said, you can make an 18 Might Wizard but he still sucks in hand-to-hand or ranged combat. An 18 Might Fighter has the training and skill to apply his Might differently.

 

His class can be Wizard, his skill non-existent, and he'd still deal more damage with one strike than a buff Fighter who has trained his technique all his life. Or am I missing something here? That's exactly how the system works right now if I'm not mistaken. Of course the Wizard wouldn't be an effective fighter in the long run, but he'd still deal high damage with one strike, and there's nothing about his physique that really explains it.

 

If there was a game that had 2 classes - Knight and Wizard - and one of them was pure melee combat while the other was pure spellcasting - then describing their aptitude in combat with an attribute called Damage or Might is not a problem. But if you have lots of hybrids, and if Wizards can wield weapons if they want to, then the visualization problems appear.

 

Its a david and goliath kind of situation.  A battle hardened trained soldier being taken by a shepard boy with a small stone, clearly he had more might than goliath ;-)

[PrimeJunta]

@Malekith it's not so much that power isn't fitting, it's that I associate the word with animé. I still prefer Might.

[Malekith]

@Malekith it's not so much that power isn't fitting, it's that I associate the word with animé. I still prefer Might.

Funny, as the PoE lore and the way the system works has more in common with anime than D&D (not that i have a problem with that)

PoE system is basicaly Naruto with "soul power" instead of chakra. Comes as a requirement with the philosophy that mundanes like fighters and rogues must be equaly strong with mages

[Fearabbit]

 

His class can be Wizard, his skill non-existent, and he'd still deal more damage with one strike than a buff Fighter who has trained his technique all his life. Or am I missing something here?

Yes you're missing something. The base melee accuracy. Very Low for wizards, Very High for fighters. Your muscle wizard would be whiffing and grazing while your fighter would be hitting and critting.

 

 

But grazing means that I didn't hit correctly. That's a different mechanic. 

I know that fighters are better at fighting than wizards, I never said that wasn't the case.

 

@Malekith: Yeah, I keep bringin up Dragonball as a comparison myself. Because physical and spiritual strength are strongly connected in these types of shows (and also in martial arts in general). But if that is the case then the game needs to put that into its world and narrative somewhere. And I have a feeling many people wouldn't like this oriental focus.