Radical idea - change attributes to more D&D like

[Longknife]

 

 

Not being a D&D-like game (or d20 if you just prefer to stick to OGL)  has been known for ages too.

 

I like d20 but it was never promised. So I ask again: In which alternate universe?

 

 

They actually said they do not have a D&D license and do not want to make a d20 based system in the very beginning.

 

 

 

How hilarious and sad would it be if Obsidian's kickstarter wasn't so successful because Obsidian's fanbase is THAT large and THAT loyal, but because the kickstarter page spread like wildfire and somehow everyone interpreted it a different way, with the universal connection being everyone thought "Obsidian's gonna make a game just like from the good old fashioned golden years of gaming," cept everyone had a different interpretation of golden years?

 

 

Inb4 we got people complaining Pillars of Eternity looks nothing like Goldeneye 64.

[vril]

 

I love D&D but I want Pillars of Eternity to be unique.

If the game was designed with this system and values in mind than there is no reason to change it. No copycat please.

 

I paid for d20 based game just like Torment,BG and IWD as was advertised in the kickstart not for this mess.

 

 

Do you remember when they announced they had the d20 license during the Kickstarter?   

[Malekith]

 

 

 

Not being a D&D-like game (or d20 if you just prefer to stick to OGL)  has been known for ages too.

 

I like d20 but it was never promised. So I ask again: In which alternate universe?

 

 

They actually said they do not have a D&D license and do not want to make a d20 based system in the very beginning.

 

 

 

How hilarious and sad would it be if Obsidian's kickstarter wasn't so successful because Obsidian's fanbase is THAT large and THAT loyal, but because the kickstarter page spread like wildfire and somehow everyone interpreted it a different way, with the universal connection being everyone thought "Obsidian's gonna make a game just like from the good old fashioned golden years of gaming," cept everyone had a different interpretation of golden years?

 

Why hillarious and sad? It's what happened.

Not that Obsidian's name didn't genarate trust, but the IE games (which indead everyone translated in their minds as "the parts i liked from IE games") were the main draw. A p.much obscure company like inXile with a bad catalog of games and no fans made similar amounds of money promishing the same. And i know people that don't like Obsidian's games that pledged because they liked the IE games. (and like Obsidian devs because they made those 90'-00' games in the first place, even if they don't like their newer ones).

 

And that's why some backers will be angry at Obsidian no matter what they do. IE experience means completely diferent things to people. Some liked IE games despite D&D, and want a new system. Others liked IE games exactly because they were D&D and if you remove that, it leaves nothing of value for them. Others liked IE combat, others hated IE combat. etc.

 

The Ideal solution would be for Sawyer to be upfront about his design goals and be spesific about the things he didn't liked in IE games and wanted to change,

but this would affect pledges negatively. So they focused their pitch in the things they liked about IE, and the backers filled in the blanks with their Ideal version of an IE game.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Malekith

[Longknife]

I'm just here cause I love Fallout New Vegas and Chris Avellone sang Don't Stop Believin'.

[Sarex]

Why hillarious and sad? It's what happened.

Not that Obsidian's name didn't genarate trust, but the IE games (which indead everyone translated in their minds as "the parts i liked from IE games") were the main draw. A p.much obscure company like inXile with a bad catalog of games and no fans made similar amounds of money promishing the same. And i know people that don't like Obsidian's games that pledged because they liked the IE games. (and like Obsidian devs because they made those 90'-00' games in the first place, even if they don't like their newer ones).

 

And that's why some backers will be angry at Obsidian no matter what they do. IE experience means completely diferent things to people. Some liked IE games despite D&D, and want a new system. Others liked IE games exactly because they were D&D and if you remove that, it leaves nothing of value for them. Others liked IE combat, others hated IE combat. etc.

 

Plus they weren't as clear as they could have been during the KS. They left a lot of things open to interpretation and did little to correct people who where getting the wrong picture. Only after it, did they start to solidify the image of PoE.

 

Now I'm not saying the guys at OE did this on purpose, but it's what happened, for better or for worse.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Sarex

[Mayama]

 

The Ideal solution would be for Sawyer to be upfront about his design goals and be spesific about the things he didn't liked in IE games and wanted to change,

but this would affect pledges negatively. So they focused their pitch in the things they liked about IE, and the backers filled in the blanks with their Ideal version of an IE game.

 

 

He actually did that their are many interviews, that he did while the kickstarte campaing was roling, in which he talked about everything he didnt like in the IE games.

[Giubba]

 

 

 

 

Not being a D&D-like game (or d20 if you just prefer to stick to OGL)  has been known for ages too.

 

I like d20 but it was never promised. So I ask again: In which alternate universe?

 

 

They actually said they do not have a D&D license and do not want to make a d20 based system in the very beginning.

 

 

 

How hilarious and sad would it be if Obsidian's kickstarter wasn't so successful because Obsidian's fanbase is THAT large and THAT loyal, but because the kickstarter page spread like wildfire and somehow everyone interpreted it a different way, with the universal connection being everyone thought "Obsidian's gonna make a game just like from the good old fashioned golden years of gaming," cept everyone had a different interpretation of golden years?

 

Why hillarious and sad? It's what happened.

Not that Obsidian's name didn't genarate trust, but the IE games (which indead everyone translated in their minds as "the parts i liked from IE games") were the main draw. A p.much obscure company like inXile with a bad catalog of games and no fans made similar amounds of money promishing the same. And i know people that don't like Obsidian's games that pledged because they liked the IE games. (and like Obsidian devs because they made those 90'-00' games in the first place, even if they don't like their newer ones).

 

And that's why some backers will be angry at Obsidian no matter what they do. IE experience means completely diferent things to people. Some liked IE games despite D&D, and want a new system. Others liked IE games exactly because they were D&D and if you remove that, it leaves nothing of value for them. Others liked IE combat, others hated IE combat. etc.

 

The Ideal solution would be for Sawyer to be upfront about his design goals and be spesific about the things he didn't liked in IE games and wanted to change,

but this would affect pledges negatively. So they focused their pitch in the things they liked about IE, and the backers filled in the blanks with their Ideal version of an IE game.

 

 

Spot on.

 

 

 

Why hillarious and sad? It's what happened.

Not that Obsidian's name didn't genarate trust, but the IE games (which indead everyone translated in their minds as "the parts i liked from IE games") were the main draw. A p.much obscure company like inXile with a bad catalog of games and no fans made similar amounds of money promishing the same. And i know people that don't like Obsidian's games that pledged because they liked the IE games. (and like Obsidian devs because they made those 90'-00' games in the first place, even if they don't like their newer ones).

 

And that's why some backers will be angry at Obsidian no matter what they do. IE experience means completely diferent things to people. Some liked IE games despite D&D, and want a new system. Others liked IE games exactly because they were D&D and if you remove that, it leaves nothing of value for them. Others liked IE combat, others hated IE combat. etc.

 

Plus they weren't as clear as they could have been during the KS. They left a lot of things open to interpretation and did little to correct people who where getting the wrong picture. Only after it, did they start to solidify the image of PoE.

 

Now I'm not saying the guys at OE did this on purpose, but it's what happened, for better or for worse.

 

 

As far as i am concerned  they did on purpose.

[Longknife]

Spot on.

 

 

As far as i am concerned  they did on purpose.

 

 

 

Ya ya dude you got swindled.

 

Didn't you know Avellone and Sawyer are this nation's 4th or maybe 5th most infamous celebrity outlaw couple? This is a textbook case of one of their infamous scams.

[Mayama]

 

Spot on.

 

 

As far as i am concerned  they did on purpose.

 

 

 

Ya ya dude you got swindled.

 

Didn't you know Avellone and Sawyer are this nation's 4th or maybe 5th most infamous celebrity outlaw couple? This is a textbook case of one of their infamous scams.

 

 The worst part is in the end they even force us to play the game!!!

[PrimeJunta]

@Glubba JES has been extremely upfront about his design goals and his understanding of what an IE game spiritual successor means. He gave several video interviews during the Kickstarter, he had blogs here on this very site, and on Formspring. If you were at all interested, you would have easily found all that information.

 

That you thought it was going to be d20 despite them stating the contrary on the very first page of the KS says something about the research you did before pledging.

 

(The fact that you don't appear to know the difference between AD&D 2e and d20 says something else.)

[Longknife]

And hell I mean we're only addressing how naive and negligent it was to think it'd be a d20 game.

 

We're not even on the point about how "just because it's not a d20 game doesn't mean it can't be good and you're being ridiculous for flipping your desk over this without giving it a shot" yet.

[Giubba]

@Glubba JES has been extremely upfront about his design goals and his understanding of what an IE game spiritual successor means. He gave several video interviews during the Kickstarter, he had blogs here on this very site, and on Formspring. If you were at all interested, you would have easily found all that information.

 

That you thought it was going to be d20 despite them stating the contrary on the very first page of the KS says something about the research you did before pledging.

 

(The fact that you don't appear to know the difference between AD&D 2e and d20 says something else.)

 

EDIT

 

Everything relased before the closure of the kickstarter campaign was nebulos and focused on how the project was based on BG,IWD,Torment.

 

Magicaly the kickstarter campaign end and the detail of the real game start to pop up.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Giubba

[PrimeJunta]

Everything relased after the kickstarter campaign.

 

Untrue.

[Longknife]

 

@Glubba JES has been extremely upfront about his design goals and his understanding of what an IE game spiritual successor means. He gave several video interviews during the Kickstarter, he had blogs here on this very site, and on Formspring. If you were at all interested, you would have easily found all that information.

 

That you thought it was going to be d20 despite them stating the contrary on the very first page of the KS says something about the research you did before pledging.

 

(The fact that you don't appear to know the difference between AD&D 2e and d20 says something else.)

 

EDIT

 

Everything relased before the closure of the kickstarter campaign was nebulos and focused on how the project was based on BG,IWD,Torment.

 

Magicaly the kickstarter campaign end and the detail of the real game start to pop up.

 

 

Yeah, we all remember that. I'll never forget that moment when Avellone and co stopped singing Don't Stop Believin' for me and suddenly changed their tune to Hallowed Be Thy Name as Obsidian immediately showed their true colors.

 

 

That's why we're complaining right now, two years later. Because it was immediately clear we were bamboozled the moment they had our money!

[PrimeJunta]

@Glubba Since I like you so much, I dug up a few links. These are all from the updates while the Kickstarter was ongoing.

 

On classes and the "core four:" 

 

"Classes in Project Eternity are meant to provide a general framework for character types. Different classes excel in different areas, but the framework can be extended and elaborated on in a multitude of ways to create characters with unique capabilities. If you see a fighter, chances are good that he or she is going to be able to take a lot of damage, but that's about all you can be sure of. If you see a wizard, he or she probably has some hard-hitting spells that can cover a large area, but his potential list of capabilities is vast.

 

If you want to create a wizard who wears plate armor and hacks away with a broadsword from behind a heavily-enhanced arcane veil, we want to let you do that. If your idea of the perfect fighter is one who wears light armor and uses a variety of dazzling rapier attacks in rapid succession, we want to help you make that character. So it's good to think of Project Eternity's classes as being purpose-ready but not purpose-limited.

 

...

 

...Though it may not look like it to see them in battle next to wizards and priests, fighters are just as able to tap into the power of their souls to devastating effect: accelerating their attacks to a superhuman speed, striking foes with such power that nearby opponents are knocked off their feet, and maintaining a phenomenal endurance that allows them to rapidly bounce back from even terrible wounds."

 

On non-combat abilities and XP:

 

"Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count."

 

A few more updates you might have wanted to read here:

• Game Basics 
• Souls and more

I can understand you not liking the way P:E is shaping up, or specific aspects of it, but if you think they've somehow done a U-turn on what they promised in the Kickstarter, you're flat out wrong. Skimming through those updates, it's actually remarkable how little they've drifted from what was said there IMO.

[Ondb]

I don't remember people complaining about Wasteland 2 basic systems / skills. They complained mainly about content / dialog options....hm maybe i am wrong.

[Longknife]

Stop messing with his head, Junta. Just admit he got scammed and Avellone and Sawyer are infamous swindlers.

 

 

You shoulda seen their last scam Giubba. Avellone and Sawyer made a really convincing Fallout 3 mod and had the gall to sell it under the guise of it being a new Fallout game! Don't feel bad about falling for this scam though, cause I fell for that last one. Happens to the best of us.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Longknife

[Majek]

I don't remember people complaining about Wasteland 2 basic systems / skills. They complained mainly about content / dialog options....hm maybe i am wrong.

The wanted perks and traits.

 

And threads like this are a prime example why i hate everyone who came to this forum after PE KS.

[Hormalakh]

 

Ciphers attribute needs are different than monk attribute needs. Wizards and fighters and rangers all have different needs. With a 6 point attribute system that affects different classes differently, you can really diverge the classes further. All your classes then don't need AoE spells or durations (to make int viable) or interrupting as an important mechanic (to make perception/resolve important)

But then we're either just renaming things or moving them around without much of a mechanical difference.

Might = power for fighter, Int = power for mage ?, Psyche = power for Cipher - would make it more intuitive but so does reading the manual.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

Plus: In the present system, you can have different builds of Cipher.  If I understand you correctly (entirely possible I've got the wrong end of a different stick), you're suggesting that Ciphers need to be built a certain way.  So we're back to D&D.

 

 

ranged classes do not require high amounts of stamina and health, nor do arrows have area of effect. if you're making a ranged onn-magical class a la rogue, certain things matter more than those. I've seen several posts already about how it makes sense to build low-health ranged classes with high interrupts, etc.

 

it isn't just about rearranging the names (though it is partially that): it's also about the fact that different classes "specialize" in different strategies and thus for a "balanced" attribute system, the attributes need to affect different classes differently.

[Gromnir]

Well, we already know that Obsidian agree that Per and Res are weaker than the other stats, so we can expect some tweaks there.

 

 

untrue. we know that obsidian's beta testers believe perception and resolve is weaker. is an important distinction. developers may know that testers is wrong. developers may need only discover some way to make usefulness o' perception and resolve more obvious. and yeah, perhaps perception and resolve is weak. we don't know.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Matt516]

 

 

I love D&D but I want Pillars of Eternity to be unique.

If the game was designed with this system and values in mind than there is no reason to change it. No copycat please.

I paid for d20 based game just like Torment,BG and IWD as was advertised in the kickstart not for this mess.

If you read the combat rules, you'll see that PoE is indeed a "d20 game" in the sense that it uses d20 rolls to calculate hit chances, etc.

 

Unless you meant a "D&D game", which is completely different and not what was advertised. :3

[Matt516]

 

 

I love D&D but I want Pillars of Eternity to be unique.

If the game was designed with this system and values in mind than there is no reason to change it. No copycat please.

I paid for d20 based game just like Torment,BG and IWD as was advertised in the kickstart not for this mess.

If you read the combat rules, you'll see that PoE is indeed a "d20 game" in the sense that it uses d20 rolls to calculate hit chances, etc.

 

Unless you meant a "D&D game", which is completely different and not what was advertised. :3

 

EDIT: Oops. Mods, feel free to delete this duplicate post.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Matt516

[Silent Winter]

If you read the combat rules, you'll see that PoE is indeed a "d20 game" in the sense that it uses d20 rolls to calculate hit chances, etc.

I thought they used a d100?  Not practical for tabletop gaming maybe but easily implemented for crpg.

[Matt516]

It kind of looks like the hit chances only change with each 5 point difference. Not sure though. The wiki is somewhat ambiguous.