Ondb Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I don't like current attributes (Might in particular). So instead of just saying i don't like it and would like suggest following system. Strength +2% melee damage bonus +1% ranged damage bonus +1 Fortitude defense +2% weight limit for character Dexterity +1% melee damage bonus +2% ranged damage bonus +1 Reflex defense +4% spell duration (only spellcasters) Constitution + x % health/stamina bonus +1 Fortitude defense Perception +1 Accuracy +4% Area of effect of all abilities Intelligence +2% spell damage/power +1% spell duration (spells only, this is to enable small increase of duration based on this attribute) +4% abilities duration (non-spells only) +1 Will defense Resolve +1 concentration +1 Will defense +4% healing received The main idea is to: 1/ Do not have Might attribute that does the same thing for every class. I want to have traditional STR - for melee, DEX for ranged and INT for spellcasters. 2/ The other attributes are useful for classes and enables different build strategy 3/ Standard party will have good distribution across all attributes. 4/ Resolve issue with weak Perception and Resolve bonuses. (Melee characters will now benefit from perception, resolve more). 5/ Wizard class have only 1 really weak attribute: STR which i think is perfectly ok. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corto81 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I think actually voted wrong and said I liked the current system. I don't, I prefer the IE stat system, and the one suggested doesn't seem bad at all. As it is, Might >>>> everything else, which is pretty weak IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waywocket Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Well, we already know that Obsidian agree that Per and Res are weaker than the other stats, so we can expect some tweaks there. It does seem like might is a bit too good, being the stat that almost everyone will want to stack (given that it's a high-combat game), but I don't think that such large changes are necessary. Perhaps, for example, it could work if might only had half of its effect on spell damage, and the other half moved to Res? Probably not I guess, but there must be some way to tweak it without a radical redesign. The thing you want to to avoid is 1) having might (or any other stat) useless for some characters, and 2) having the 'optimal' stat distribution being the same for everyone. Currently the system suffers from 2, but the suggestions I've seen for how to fix it suffer from 1. It's a tough problem, and I think it will need several iterations of tweaking and testing to get right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrakvampire Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I think actually voted wrong and said I liked the current system. I don't, I prefer the IE stat system, and the one suggested doesn't seem bad at all. As it is, Might >>>> everything else, which is pretty weak IMO. Just press 'delete my vote' No to experimentation! No to fixing that is not broken! No to changes for the sake of change! Do not forget basis of Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Planescape Torment. Just put all your effort to story, fine-tuning and quality control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vril Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 While the current system isn't perfect, I still prefer it far over D&D which just promotes min maxing. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namutree Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Carole King knows why this is a bad idea. "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 No amount of poll votes is going to change one of the most essential aspects of the system at this point. 11 There are no doors in Jefferson that are "special game locked" doors. There are no characters in that game that you can kill that will result in the game ending prematurely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shdy314 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) No amount of poll votes is going to change one of the most essential aspects of the system at this point. Actually minor tweaks are probably still possible. Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I like the PoE attribute concept, the implementation on the other hand does need tweaking and balancing... but Obsidian were the first to say that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeJunta Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) No amount of poll votes is going to change one of the most essential aspects of the system at this point. Actually, attributes are among the least essential aspects of the system and one that's the easiest to change. It's basically a map of attribute values to combat bonuses. Not even programming, just adjusting values in a hashmap. There are plenty of topics not worth discussing ("Make it more like BG2!") but changes to the attribute system are not among them. As long as there are six, pretty much anything can be changed right up to the last minute. (FWIW I voted "something else." Per and Res are too dumpable, and I don't like the "might affects all damage" thing, which is counterintuitive. Find some other way to make muscle wizards attractive.) Edited August 21, 2014 by PrimeJunta 3 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 No amount of poll votes is going to change one of the most essential aspects of the system at this point. Actually, attributes are among the least essential aspects of the system and one that's the easiest to change. It's basically a map of attribute values to combat bonuses. Not even programming, just adjusting values in a hashmap. No, they're not. Because changing the meaning of attributes would require the entire system to be rebalanced and that's not something that can be accomplished easily. That has nothing to do with programming, and everything to do with a whole crapload of math that Josh & co had to do when designing the system. 1 There are no doors in Jefferson that are "special game locked" doors. There are no characters in that game that you can kill that will result in the game ending prematurely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 "I still prefer it far over D&D which just promotes min maxing." So does this. Anyways, I think the attribute system itself is fine. Just needs some tweeks. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 A tweaked version of the current system would be optimal for me. I suspect that Obsidian are going to tweak Resolve and Perception first, seeing as those are the two stats they admitted were not very good. "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "you're a damned filthy lying robot and you deserve to die and burn in hell." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "I love cheese despite the pain and carnage." - ShadySands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeJunta Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 No, they're not. Because changing the meaning of attributes would require the entire system to be rebalanced and that's not something that can be accomplished easily. That has nothing to do with programming, and everything to do with a whole crapload of math that Josh & co had to do when designing the system. Nah. Balancing is done near the end of the process. It hasn't been done yet. Revising the attribute system before final rebalancing barely registers. I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I disagree. Balance tweaks can be done at any time, but a change in attribute concept would have such a profound effect on the system that it would have to be redesigned from the ground up. 1 There are no doors in Jefferson that are "special game locked" doors. There are no characters in that game that you can kill that will result in the game ending prematurely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malekith Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) I disagree. Balance tweaks can be done at any time, but a change in attribute concept would have such a profound effect on the system that it would have to be redesigned from the ground up. This system is designed in such a way that you completely drop the attributes with zero problems. Sawyer even said that if he wasn't for IE tradition, the game wouldn't have attributes at all. Imagine PoE, but with attributes completely removed. Now tell me, what problems are there? Edited August 21, 2014 by Malekith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeJunta Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I disagree. Balance tweaks can be done at any time, but a change in attribute concept would have such a profound effect on the system that it would have to be redesigned from the ground up. What kind of profound effect, specifically? I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I disagree. Balance tweaks can be done at any time, but a change in attribute concept would have such a profound effect on the system that it would have to be redesigned from the ground up. This system is designed in such a way that you completely drop the attributes with zero problems. Sawyer even said that if he wasn't for IE tradition, the game wouldn't have attributes at all. Imagine PoE, but with attributes completely removed. Now tell me, what problems are there? Removing the attributes completely is absolutely not the same as changing the way they work. The way stats currently work is tied to the current design of classes (all stats have a similar effect on all classes); if stats were to have a different effect on different classes (as proposed above), then all the classes would have to be redesigned to take that into account. We could drop all stats, and the game would still work. I'd love to read that quote, BTW, considering that I have yet to play a RPG (computer or tabletop) that does not have some form of attributes. I'm sure there are some Indie systems played by a dozen people that don't have stats, but that's hardly something that should be used in a project like PoE. There are no doors in Jefferson that are "special game locked" doors. There are no characters in that game that you can kill that will result in the game ending prematurely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wintersong Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 "I still prefer it far over D&D which just promotes min maxing." So does this. Anyways, I think the attribute system itself is fine. Just needs some tweeks. But isn't minmaxing a conscious choice by the player? Only a barbarian I made had max Might, Constitution and Dexterity. all the otehr "fighters" that I have created have been quite varied in stats and still work fine. They are not as efficient in combat maybe, but they do the job. While I do agree that the system needs tweaks, I do also think that any stat system will fall to minmaxing of some kind. Specialists are considered more efficient than generalists after all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrakvampire Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) This system is designed in such a way that you completely drop the attributes with zero problems. Sawyer even said that if he wasn't for IE tradition, the game wouldn't have attributes at all. Imagine PoE, but with attributes completely removed. Now tell me, what problems are there? Usage of these attributes doesn't honor IE tradition at all (cause it's so badly implemented, that Dragon Age 2 stats look like ideal standard of rpg system compared to this), so that guy should have dropped them entirely. Edited August 21, 2014 by Mrakvampire No to experimentation! No to fixing that is not broken! No to changes for the sake of change! Do not forget basis of Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Planescape Torment. Just put all your effort to story, fine-tuning and quality control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vril Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 "I still prefer it far over D&D which just promotes min maxing." So does this. Anyways, I think the attribute system itself is fine. Just needs some tweeks. Certainly, but to a lesser extent than 2nd edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
termokanden Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Is min-maxing actually a problem? It was frowned upon in my pen & paper roleplaying groups because the point was to roleplay rather than "win", but when we play computer games, I think it's a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linkamus Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I like your proposed system, but I think Obsidian will be able to tweak their system to one that is equally as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
termokanden Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I like your proposed system, but I think Obsidian will be able to tweak their system to one that is equally as good. Maybe equally good, but they are fundamentally very different. I guess at the end of the day it's yet another matter of taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 To be clear, I personally don't like the current attribute system, but I don't think it's feasible to change it at this point. The reason why I don't like it is because it was designed from a gamist point of view, whereas I personally prefer systems that are oriented towards simulationist style of play. However, I understand that it makes a lot of sense to adopt the gamist approach to system design in CRPGs (personal preferences aside). There are no doors in Jefferson that are "special game locked" doors. There are no characters in that game that you can kill that will result in the game ending prematurely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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