Change inventory system from "PoE stash" to "IE encumbrance"

[AdaMusic]

In the backer beta forum there has been discussion on the subject of inventory systems. Most people in the backer beta forum seem to agree that the "PoE stash" system is inferior to the "IE encumbrance" system in terms of strategy, immersion, convention and simplicity (i.e. the "PoE stash" system is more complicated without adding any complexity). While watching Twitch the new inventory systems seems unintuitive because nearly ever player I've seen has misunderstood the concept. Even when they understand the concept the stash is not even used in the intended way (described in PoE updates).

 

See this thread for the ongoing backer beta discussion (and motivation/arguments for why the "PoE stash" system is inferior):

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67254-feedback-about-the-new-inventory-the-stash-system/

 

My suggestion is to change the "PoE" stash system to the "IE encumbrance" system seen in games like BG, BG2, IWD, NWN and Elder Scrolls.

 

Thoughts?

[Gfted1]

The stated goal of the unlimited stash was to remove the "degenerative gameplay" of walking back and forth to collect all the loot, so I don't see them changing it.

 

What they should do is remove the merchant cash limit. Whats the point of gathering loot if you cant sell it?

[Zansatsu]

The stated goal of the unlimited stash was to remove the "degenerative gameplay" of walking back and forth to collect all the loot, so I don't see them changing it.

 

What they should do is remove the merchant cash limit. Whats the point of gathering loot if you cant sell it?

Agreed that is a very frustrating feature, if by that you mean venders have a limited amount of gold and once you have sold all your stuff they are now out and it never comes back? Just clarifying because I am not in the beta so I don't know exactly what it is like. At least have his cash replenish in a game day cycle or so.  You would think he might make some money while you are out. 

[Gfted1]

Yep, the vendors have a limited amount of gold. I hit a game stopping bug before a 24-hour cycle happened in game so I don't know if merchants replenish their gold.

[BrokenMask]

Yeaaaaah, encumbrance is just annoying mechanic

[Osvir]

I think this mechanic could have much more value on a higher difficulty~

The Stash is more or less book & ingredients pile for me. Economy is hardly balanced in the beta, and getting more gear than what the vendors can afford (through bugs/exploits). I think it's cool that they have limited gold, but I think it's too soon to say anything whether it's a good or bad thing.

[Shdy314]

The stated goal of the unlimited stash was to remove the "degenerative gameplay" of walking back and forth to collect all the loot, so I don't see them changing it.

 

What they should do is remove the merchant cash limit. Whats the point of gathering loot if you cant sell it?

I do not know about degenerative gameplay but anything they add to remove the wasteful padding (making you walk the same areas multiple times so their 70hr game becomes 100! hr game) is fine with me.

In reality people would have pack animals and carts and BAGS to drag everything back at once.

 

As for limited gold perhaps we will want to save most of it for stronghold? And we have the stash so you can just wait till you get a vendor with gear you want. That stuff is expensive!

Edited August 20, 2014 by Shdy314

[Gfted1]

I do not know about degenerative gameplay but anything they add to remove the wasteful padding (making you walk the same areas multiple times so their 70hr game becomes 100! hr game) is fine with me.

In reality people would have pack animals and carts and BAGS to drag everything back at once.

Its interesting to me how vastly different people played the IE series. The thought of walking back and forth to carry every possible loot never entered my brain, when I got full I would just discard whatever was the lowest value item in my inventory for whatever better thing I just picked up. But I see several other posters say they DO go back and forth for everything. No way is better than the other but I feel if Im going to have unlimited inventory then I shouldn't be restricted from being able to offload it. Imo.

 

As for limited gold perhaps we will want to save most of it for stronghold? And we have the stash so you can just wait till you get a vendor with gear you want. That stuff is expensive!

I think I remember something about the stronghold being a pretty big gold sink. Hopefully there's enough merchants around to sell everything.

[Leferd]

Or they could institute a feature where excess loot can be used to fill up your stronghold armory and it'll grant increases to your stronghold's security score.

[AdaMusic]

Reading this thread and following critique even more makes me feel like the encumbrance system and stash system are both two bad systems. Personally I like the encumbrance system better since it is more close to how I picture reality in a fantasy world.

[GreyFox]

I'd like to see merchants refresh their gold at certain intervals or just remove that limitation altogether. This wasn't supposed to be a simulation so I don't really care if the merchant "wouldn't really" be able to buy all my extra gear.

 

It's a game FFS and I'd like to sell my stuff even if it isn't what "really" happens or would really happen.

[Ink Blot]

My biggest complaint with the stash is you can only access it when making camp (you can put stuff in it anywhere, and you can sell stuff out of it to a merchant, but you can't access it to equip things on your character unless making camp). I don't mind not being able to access it in a dungeon or wilderness area, but it makes no sense to me to be able to sell your stuff in a town, yet you can't access it without making camp.

 

At least, I haven't found any other way to access it.

[AdaMusic]

I'd like to see merchants refresh their gold at certain intervals or just remove that limitation altogether. This wasn't supposed to be a simulation so I don't really care if the merchant "wouldn't really" be able to buy all my extra gear.

 

It's a game FFS and I'd like to sell my stuff even if it isn't what "really" happens or would really happen.

 

Yay! Let us casualize cRPGs to aRPGs a lá Diablo 3 where everything needs to happen quick and instant.

[Immortalis]

In the backer beta forum there has been discussion on the subject of inventory systems. Most people in the backer beta forum seem to agree that the "PoE stash" system is inferior to the "IE encumbrance" system in terms of strategy, immersion, convention and simplicity (i.e. the "PoE stash" system is more complicated without adding any complexity). While watching Twitch the new inventory systems seems unintuitive because nearly ever player I've seen has misunderstood the concept. Even when they understand the concept the stash is not even used in the intended way (described in PoE updates).

 

See this thread for the ongoing backer beta discussion (and motivation/arguments for why the "PoE stash" system is inferior):

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67254-feedback-about-the-new-inventory-the-stash-system/

 

My suggestion is to change the "PoE" stash system to the "IE encumbrance" system seen in games like BG, BG2, IWD, NWN and Elder Scrolls.

 

Thoughts?

 

I agree wholeheartedly.. but after arguing with the casual crowd about kill-xp.. im sure they know my opinion on this and already disagree with me.

[rjshae]

The IE inventory system is clunky and outdated; it's one of the most annoying aspects of going back to play BG2EE.

 

Do I hang on to these twenty pieces of seemingly useless quest cr*p in case they prove important, or do I replace them with something useful? Now I have to spend ten minutes consolidating gems that are scattered across the party in the gem sack. Why does this one arrow that I'll probably use only rarely take up as much room as 80 +1 arrows? Why do I need to have multiple party members carry along extra arrows used by one or two characters? What is it about my equipment that is causing so much encumbrance--wait, I'll add and remove each one until I find it.

 

I'll be glad to see the last of it.

[Jon of the Wired]

I like the current inventory system a lot. The UI could probably use some work, but I wouldn't want to go back to a BG2 style inventory. It just creates a lot of boring busywork.

[Shadenuat]

One thing that should be changed about stash ASAP is adding ability to use it while in any safe location - be it a tavern or a city. There is an option like that in a shop but that's not enough. You have to do all the dancing like hiring new guy in tavern, then going into rest window again, entering stash, taking **** from stash, putting his stuff in stash, and so on.

 

Actually, I'm not sure the game will suffer if Stash would only be not avaible during combat and that's it. Strange mechanic really, I'm not sure why is it in, since 60 slots and stackable consumables is enough to get through without any Stash. Heck, IE quick slots were more tactical I think as an idea than what PoE has now.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Shadenuat

[Immortalis]

I like the current inventory system a lot. The UI could probably use some work, but I wouldn't want to go back to a BG2 style inventory. It just creates a lot of boring busywork.

 

I think playing hot potato or the shell game between character screens for inventory was one of the worst things about IE.. However this thread is more about encumbrance and the magical stash of unlimited item holding.

 

Nothing wrong with making a good UI for inventory management.. but I disagree with having this stash so you can pick up every stupid item without consequence.. Making choices about what items you take was a big deal in IE.. because you didn't wanna walk back out into the middle of nowhere for a bunch of stupid long swords.

[Tartantyco]

Making choices about what items you take was a big deal in IE.

 

 

No it wasn't.

[GrinningReaper659]

 

Making choices about what items you take was a big deal in IE.

 

 

No it wasn't.

 

 

 

I guess whether or not it was a big deal was determined by how you played it. There was so much gold floating around in BG that it hardly seems reasonable to make multiple trips to and from town for long swords and leather armor, but I'm sure plenty of people did. I personally enjoyed having to make meaningful decisions on what to keep and what to leave while making my way through areas such as Durlag's tower. So actually, for places like that, I can definitely see why people made treks back and forth for all those items that weren't just long swords and leather armor. I'm not sure that the encumbrance system of the BG games is the ideal system in my mind, but it did lead to some fun decisions in my games, which is all that really matters to me. For those that felt compelled to trek back and forth for every scrap, I can see your side and how that would be incredibly tiresome. Now we have a system that has our adventuring party capable of collecting literal metric tons of found objects, there's no reason any party will ever leave behind a single item, and the game is balanced around that expectation. I'm not sure that I prefer it, but I don't really dislike the current system enough to be too upset.

 

Stash needs organization and a larger window, that's for sure.

[Zombra]

Thank god for any system that lets me spend less time picking through little boxes sorting through what I want to keep and what I don't want to keep.  IE inventory system was a pain in my ass.  Magical unlimited stash, I embrace you.  I do enough warehouse management at work.

 

Note that I haven't seen the beta, so who knows, maybe the UI sucks, but I like the concept in general.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Zombra

[Chilloutman]

Well I dont mind bag of holding idea but from beta experience its really awkward. Make it crafting/quest item related only. Make more room on individual characters, implement encumbrance (this will require putting back so outdated character attribute as STRENGTH). If someone want to loot every crappy hatched they find its their problem, not problem of inventory system. Then you would not need to sell bazillion of short swords to cheese vendor. Seriously that image of adventurers running from corps to corps pulling out their golden teeth to get every penny from them is hilarious

[Jon of the Wired]

 

I like the current inventory system a lot. The UI could probably use some work, but I wouldn't want to go back to a BG2 style inventory. It just creates a lot of boring busywork.

 

I think playing hot potato or the shell game between character screens for inventory was one of the worst things about IE.. However this thread is more about encumbrance and the magical stash of unlimited item holding.

 

Nothing wrong with making a good UI for inventory management.. but I disagree with having this stash so you can pick up every stupid item without consequence.. Making choices about what items you take was a big deal in IE.. because you didn't wanna walk back out into the middle of nowhere for a bunch of stupid long swords.

 

 

It wasn't a big deal, because there's an optimal algorithm for it. When you encounter a new item, look in your inventory for the least valuable item. If that item is less valuable than the new item, drop it and pick up the new item. Otherwise, leave the new item where it is. There's no choice involved, it's just busywork. The stash removes that busy work, while keeping the actual interesting choices around what equipment and consumables you want to carry with you. I think it's a very successful system.

[Hamenaglar]

In my opinion original Witcher had the best loot system. You could collect minor items and money of killed foes, but weapons you could only swap (there were no armors to loot in the game). I really loved that. I hadn't spent gathering all the possible loot from the enemies, you would only take what you needed and what you could carry realistically (kind of, carrying 100s of potions, breads, monster ingredients, booze etc. isn't really realistic, but you get what I mean).

[Lephys]

The thing about encumbrance is:

 

It's perfectly reasonable for you to find more than you can carry at some point in the game (even if not extremely regularly), but for that stuff you found to all be well worth your characters' while, and for going back and getting it to be an actual intelligent decision rather than just some irrational compulsion to hoard. So, however you look at it, preventing the player from going back to get something is silly (as a default... there are clearly times when that would be impossible, and/or the thing would degrade or be collected by others). And allowing the player to pick up all the stuff, but punishing them for it, is just silly. "HaHA! We're not gonna stop you from taking this perfectly useful thing we, ourselves, put into the game here, but we're gonna make sure you move EXCRUTIATINGLY slowly, now! 8D!".

 

It's always just a matter of time. A second trip because of a hard limit. Slow movement taking longer because of encumbrance, etc. That's what they're trying to remove. The game gives you people who need money and such, and drops them into a world in which resources are fairly limited (there's pretty much always SOMEone who'd gladly take most things you can think of, within reason). Then, it gives you useful resources, and says "Have fun trying to make use of all of that, though, even though there's really nothing stopping you except extra time and effort."

 

So, no, the whole "there's no reason to worry about getting all the stuff" argument doesn't really fly. Sure there is. Not everything, all-together. But, all the things each have some individual reason to exist in the world and be useful, unless they're just trash loot (which shouldn't even be in the game, really).

 

Thing is, in any of the previous systems, you can usually just go back and get it. So, the only meaningful decision you have to make is "what do I want accessible right now?" If you drop some stuff on the ground, or stick it in a hollow in a log, or a chest in a house or something, you just don't get to access it for the time being. So, it seems perfectly reasonable to just abstractly skip the whole "we physically march our people back from town to that spot in the woods to collect those things" step, but retain the "You still don't get access to everything all at once" consequence.

 

In that regard, I'm not sure the infinite stash is really significant enough in its accessibility restrictions, as I think it's accessible any time you camp? *shrug*