Game difficulty

[Answermancer]

Remember, these are trash mobs not bosses. This is not a special encounter, just a few foes meant to break up exploration. It's not that I can't beat them; it's that it requires too much effort. I'll put it this way:

 

I really don't like this argument some people are throwing around. If an encounter is trivial why even have it? Better off removing it at that point.

 

If you want to relax or whatever and not be challenged set the game to Easy, I'm pretty sure you can change the difficulty in-game (and if not they should allow you to).

 

As it is, I don't think most encounters are hard on Normal (playing a melee Rogue PC) as long as you pay just a little attention to your enemies. I strongly feel that there should not be any encounters (on Normal or higher) that you can defeat by just rushing guys in without any thought to engagement, positioning, or ability use.

 

And I'm not a guy who plays games for challenge, I rarely play games above Normal and extreme challenge does not appeal to me at all. But I also don't think that having a bunch of mindless trash encounters in this kind of game, especially one where you don't get XP for killing stuff, is good design.

 

All I really think the game needs is bug fixes, some balance passes, slower movement (but not ability use) and a whole lot of nice QoL stuff to add clarity (engagement circles, better damage/crit/ability feedback). Possibly a rebalance on the Stamina:Health ratio also, if the adventuring day ends up too short.

 

Edit: Also, even with the bugs, including disappearing items, I already find combat here more fun than say in the WL2 beta when it first came out.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Answermancer

[Namutree]

 

I wouldn't characterize it as easy exactly--but the difficulty comes with trying to get the toons to do things, which is hard because of bugs. Once they're ironed out, how could it not work much better?

 

I'm sure the combat will be a bit easier once the bugs are fixed, and I'm sure it'll be more fun. I don't think though it'll make such a big difference that the game's difficulty goes down to BG2 level. I could be wrong though, and I hope I am.

[Namutree]

 

And I'm not a guy who plays games for challenge, I rarely play games above Normal and extreme challenge does not appeal to me at all. But I also don't think that having a bunch of mindless trash encounters in this kind of game, especially one where you don't get XP for killing stuff, is good design.

 

I didn't suggest increasing the frequency of encounters. Just that they be a bit easier, and a bit simpler. The fact we don't get combat xp actually gives more reason to shorten and simplify combat. If we aren't being rewarded for combat; then we shouldn't have to put so much time and effort into it.

 

 

If an encounter is trivial why even have it? Better off removing it at that point.

 

Not at all. Trash mobs can break up exploration, and make the player feel like a boss when you stomp them. 

[Sammael]

As it is, combat is really confusing. I feel like I have no control over what my characters are doing, which is very different from IE games. I even started using auto-pause options (something I never did in IE). 

 

I had 2 fights, one with stone beetles where my party got slaughtered within seconds, and the second with the group of assassins/bounty hunters (+ a dozen companion boars) outside of town (led by... Merith?). I managed to survive the second fight with 3 party members still alive. My own character (druid shapeshifted into a bear) got killed in 2-3 blows. 

 

Playing on normal difficulty, BTW. I always played IWD2 on hard and it was a piece of cake except for the final boss fight. Granted, that was a long time ago and I may suck at games now. Plus, the PoE system is so different it will take a while to achieve system mastery (I think they went overboard in making the system different from D&D, which will be a turnoff for some people).

[Tempus]

I've played on hard, finished the Legacy of Blood quest line and found the game incredibly easy, have your tanks charge in first, cleric heal as needed. rogue flank = winwin.  And I'm not even swapping weapons take advantage of the weak defense not am I really casting spells since the UI is way off with what I aim and what actually gets hit. 

[Sensuki]

Trash mobs ARE more threatening in Pillars of Eternity than they are in the IE games.

 

They require more attention to beat, rather than just select all -> left click, wait, encounter over

 

They take longer to bring down than an IE trash mob encounter.

 

The current Health:Stamina ratio only allows you to do a few of them before you're nearly out of Health.

[Namutree]

 

I had 2 fights, one with stone beetles where my party got slaughtered within seconds, 

You expected poe's to be like an IE game; Bosses and special fights are hard and complicated. Trash mobs are easy and simple. It's not surprising you died.

 

So far I expect that in poe after the bugs are fixed it'll play like this:

 

Bosses and special fights are hard and complicated like they should be. Trash mobs are hard and complicated like they shouldn't be.

 

Unless Obsidian changes course poe will be very punishing.

[Namutree]

Trash mobs ARE more threatening in Pillars of Eternity than they are in the IE games.

 

They require more attention to beat, rather than just select all -> left click, wait, encounter over

 

They take longer to bring down than an IE trash mob encounter.

 

The current Health:Stamina ratio only allows you to do a few of them before you're nearly out of Health.

Do you think that's good or bad?

[Sensuki]

The balance of all the elements is not right. I am fine with trash mob encounters being more engaging, but you should be able to have a longer adventuring day.

 

The IE games also had Bears that did not attack the party unless you "pissed it off", PE doesn't have this AI implemented. It would be nice if various animals had the same behaviour, so that those that wanted to kill the Lions / Bears / Wolves etc could do so - like in the IE games and others who don't want to kill the Lions could simply just move on.

 

They should attack where it makes sense, but I think some neutral element to some of the creatures would be a good thing, rather than just have everything hostile.

 

Older games like Dark Sun Shattered Lands handled this pretty well through dialogue with intelligent creatures as well.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Sensuki

[PrimeJunta]

Personally I don't care for trash mobs that are an annoyance rather than a challenge. IWD2 was really bad in this respect. I'd rather have fewer but more varied and tougher encounters than lots of easy ones.

 

I agree with Sensuki about the End/Health ratio. Currently needs too much resting. It could be I'll feel differently about this once the combat bugs are sorted though.

[Namutree]

The balance of all the elements is not right. I am fine with trash mob encounters being more engaging, but you should be able to have a longer adventuring day.

 

The IE games also had Bears that did not attack the party unless you "pissed it off", PE doesn't have this AI implemented. It would be nice if various animals had the same behaviour, so that those that wanted to kill the Lions / Bears / Wolves etc could do so - like in the IE games and others who don't want to kill the Lions could simply just move on.

 

They should attack where it makes sense, but I think some neutral element to some of the creatures would be a good thing, rather than just have everything hostile.

 

Older games like Dark Sun Shattered Lands handled this pretty well through dialogue with intelligent creatures as well.

At least the deer isn't hostile. I agree though that the lions and wolves should be hostile automatically. They should be like the bears from BG. If you go near them or attack them they'll go hostile, but if you keep your distance so do they. That would really help make the game pace more bearable. Maybe make that the next Sensuki Suggestion.

[Sensuki]

Added it to my PE.txt anyway

[Namutree]

Personally I don't care for trash mobs that are an annoyance rather than a challenge. IWD2 was really bad in this respect. I'd rather have fewer but more varied and tougher encounters than lots of easy ones.

In IWD2 they didn't really have exploring so the trash mobs didn't serve much purpose. Not to mention the frequency with which they were spammed. I would be just as opposed to increasing enemy spam as you seem to be. I simply want the trash mobs that are here to be a bit simpler. 

[Bazy]

I simply want the trash mobs that are here to be a bit simpler. 

How can they get any simpler? They attack and stick to the first thing they see. Just send your tank in then aoe to death in like 10 seconds.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Bazy

[Yonjuro]

 

The balance of all the elements is not right. I am fine with trash mob encounters being more engaging, but you should be able to have a longer adventuring day.

 

The IE games also had Bears that did not attack the party unless you "pissed it off", PE doesn't have this AI implemented. It would be nice if various animals had the same behaviour, so that those that wanted to kill the Lions / Bears / Wolves etc could do so - like in the IE games and others who don't want to kill the Lions could simply just move on.

 

They should attack where it makes sense, but I think some neutral element to some of the creatures would be a good thing, rather than just have everything hostile.

 

Older games like Dark Sun Shattered Lands handled this pretty well through dialogue with intelligent creatures as well.

At least the deer isn't hostile. I agree though that the lions and wolves should be hostile automatically. They should be like the bears from BG. If you go near them or attack them they'll go hostile, but if you keep your distance so do they. That would really help make the game pace more bearable. Maybe make that the next Sensuki Suggestion.

 

 

 I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the general sentiment, but you can use the stealth mechanic to avoid the lions entirely if you want to.

[Namutree]

How can they get any simpler? They attack and stick to the first thing they see. Just send your tank in then aoe to death in like 10 seconds.

 

 

I meant simpler for you to defeat, and I already stated how. Lower their hp by 10%. 

[PIP-Clownboy]

 

How can they get any simpler? They attack and stick to the first thing they see. Just send your tank in then aoe to death in like 10 seconds.

 

 

I meant simpler for you to defeat, and I already stated how. Lower their hp by 10%. 

 

 

He just showed you how without your nuclear option though. 

[Rostere]

Whatever you do Obsidian: Don't make the game too easy. Make an "easy" mode for the noobs, that should be it.

[Waywocket]

 

 

 

I'm not sure what to say about being swarmed. Don't you see them before they see you?

 

Yes you do, and if you are very careful you can prevent them from overrunning your party. Again though; these are trash mobs. I shouldn't have to try so hard just to survive against them. BG2 certainly wasn't that hard where every battle was freakin' struggle if you weren't careful. 

 

Again, Josh specifically stated that poe wouldn't be harder than BG2. So he has work to do to balance the difficulty.

 

"Our normal difficulty will not be tuned for casual players at all.  It will not be as hard as IWD2 but should be in the IWD/BG2 range.  Bumping it to Hard should put you into IWD2+ territory."

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65036-pillars-of-eternity-has-lots-of-abilities-but-will-we-truly-need-to-use-them/?view=findpost&p=1414574

 

This actually really concerns me, because I find it hard to understand how anyone could consider IWD and BG2 in the same range. IWD is one of the most frustratingly brutal games I've ever played; to this day, I still haven't beaten it (it's such a slog I've been taking it in stages - my most recent run got me most of the way through HoW, but that was several months back). BG2 on the other hand has a fairly challenging first chapter or two, and then settles into a fairly comfortable difficulty - I happily played on the 'core rules' setting, which is one step up from the default.

 

Somebody who considers these games to be in even roughly the same difficulty bracket has a perception that's so different from mine that I'm not certain we'd be able to have any kind of meaningful discussion when it comes to game balance or encounter design.

[Giubba]

Got a question.

 

At the moment do the difficult slider change anything at all in the game?

[Tartantyco]

Got a question.

 

At the moment do the difficult slider change anything at all in the game?

 

Yes, they increase mob sizes and buff enemy stats.

[Giubba]

 

Got a question.

 

At the moment do the difficult slider change anything at all in the game?

 

Yes, they increase mob sizes and buff enemy stats.

 

 

Really? because i cannot see any difference in combat between easy,normal and hard.

[Starwars]

I think it's a bit too early here to talk about the difficulty tuning. At least from my personal point of view, there are too many little things that need tweaking (and bugs that need fixing) before I can really say whether I feel the game is too easy, difficult or whatever. What I'm definitely liking is that this game makes me a lot more active than the IE games generally (of course it's different in the big boss fights), I'm doing way more stuff in this. That's a huuuuge plus in my opinion.

 

One of my biggest gripes about realtime w pause systems is that it often leads to developers having a lot of "trash mobs" that the player blows through without much thought. I don't want any trash mobs, I want encounters that activate me. Now, the *rate* of encounters may something that needs tweaking as well. But I really hope that the rest of the game also features encounters where I need to be active.

 

For me, the biggest positive thing in the combat has been exactly that, I need to be active *and* the game actually has plenty of tools for me to use.

[Panteleimon]

I've been playing on hard difficulty with expert mode on. So far the challenge has been appropriate and fun, outside of the bugs that require you to really be aware of them, or even just start over.

 

Regardless, I don't get a power-boner when I stomp all over weak enemies. I feel like I'm having my hand held and my back patted simultaneously while someone says "who's a big boy?! YOU are!".  I get satisfaction from fights like, say, wiping out another party about your own size. There's just as many of them as there are of you, and they're sentient beings that are very determined not to be the ones loaded into body bags. Why SHOULDN'T it be an awfully brutal struggle? I still remember the names of those Amnish aristocrats from the Cloudpeaks in BG1 because they were so lethal.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Panteleimon

[Gonshu]

Honestly, BG2 wasn't a hard game (maybe it was average difficulty), but I could literally overrun any dungeon with my Kensai or Archer proper equipped alone in the hardest mode (even kill a dragon with only one character).

 

IW2 was a more challenging game, where tactics were much more important, and where mistakes costed you a reload. I feel that is fine as much as I think that encounters should be posible to avoid for these players that prefer to play de diplomat or sneaky paths.

 

Back to the difficulty matter, I just  hope that the difficulty bar makes it's job on this matter. So if you pick easy, battles should be easy, and if you pick hard battles should be hard. The problem at the moment is more because of bugs and some flaws in the combat system: units moving too fast, some attacks doing far too much damage to be able to react, missinformation in the way that you don't see clearly what is happening.

 

I found the combats completely bipolar in hard mode, they go really easy or really hard, once I got how combat works and found that positioning is the most important thing as combat is now, enemy aggro doesn't change as it should, so basically send in your buffed BB fighter and wait until everyone attacks him, then send your rogue and ranger (I am playing a ranger) to the back of the enemies, you don't even have to use any ability,  sad. Also the fact that Wizard is plain overpowered makes it easier.

 

Obviously this is an early stage beta so I expect things not to work as they should, I like the idea of making combat really tactical and I think they are in the right path even though they have to improve it a lot.