More like BG2 please

[AdaMusic]

 

 

1. Here is the thread about the new inventory system: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67254-feedback-about-the-new-inventory-the-stash-system/

 

I guess I was not clear on how the stash works. I had assumed it was just for your stronghold, not a magical bottomless chest you take everywhere. That does seem like a bad idea. What I do like is the group inventory screen. That's a major improvement over constantly having so swap loot between characters. I think you should have a very large bag space with a weight limit.

 

 

Agreed. That seems to be what mostly people want. And also search and sorting by weight, value or other tags.

[ctn2003]

You have a point, truth be told i think they need to look at IWD2 as a reference and guide to making POE id make many things better such as them music Ui game. But as is..the game is really good love the godlike  -->

[Cabamacadaf]

I think the way attributes work in PoE is great, and one of the more interesting things they've added. They just need to make Perception and Resolve more useful in combat.

[Ztirual]

I would definitely enjoy to be able to roll. Like they did in ToEE - you could roll, or you could have a static set.

[Karkarov]

Ok. Here is my constructive criticism:

 

1. Return classic intuitive stats (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma). Don't want to have dump stats? Just make sure that there is logical explanation why should Wizard take high Strength. Maybe there could be builds of melee wizard? Or maybe Strength could contribute to defenses vs. some kind of physical attacks (like knockouts). No need to actually use D&D system, just use classic stats that are self-explanatory.

 

2. Return classic IE inventory and add more filters/etc to it. Bring back item weight and encumbance. No more console-like infinite stashes! If you want more space - buy magic bags. 

 

3. Remove at least 50% of abilities from non-casters and make others mostly in format of 'enabled / disabled'. This will greatly reduce amount of micromanagement that is required in combat.

This post makes me wish this forum had a dislike button.

 

This game needs less BG because most of this games real flaws come from them wanting to do something original with vision but being handicapped and having to make it reminiscent of the Infinity Engine games.

[Namutree]

 

Ok. Here is my constructive criticism:

 

1. Return classic intuitive stats (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma). Don't want to have dump stats? Just make sure that there is logical explanation why should Wizard take high Strength. Maybe there could be builds of melee wizard? Or maybe Strength could contribute to defenses vs. some kind of physical attacks (like knockouts). No need to actually use D&D system, just use classic stats that are self-explanatory.

 

2. Return classic IE inventory and add more filters/etc to it. Bring back item weight and encumbance. No more console-like infinite stashes! If you want more space - buy magic bags. 

 

3. Remove at least 50% of abilities from non-casters and make others mostly in format of 'enabled / disabled'. This will greatly reduce amount of micromanagement that is required in combat.

This post makes me wish this forum had a dislike button.

 

This game needs less BG because most of this games real flaws come from them wanting to do something original with vision but being handicapped and having to make it reminiscent of the Infinity Engine games.

 

Mechanically almost everything "original" seems to be a problem. Obsidian should have been original with the races/lore, and be very traditional with the mechanics.

[Giubba]

 

 

Ok. Here is my constructive criticism:

 

1. Return classic intuitive stats (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma). Don't want to have dump stats? Just make sure that there is logical explanation why should Wizard take high Strength. Maybe there could be builds of melee wizard? Or maybe Strength could contribute to defenses vs. some kind of physical attacks (like knockouts). No need to actually use D&D system, just use classic stats that are self-explanatory.

 

2. Return classic IE inventory and add more filters/etc to it. Bring back item weight and encumbance. No more console-like infinite stashes! If you want more space - buy magic bags. 

 

3. Remove at least 50% of abilities from non-casters and make others mostly in format of 'enabled / disabled'. This will greatly reduce amount of micromanagement that is required in combat.

This post makes me wish this forum had a dislike button.

 

This game needs less BG because most of this games real flaws come from them wanting to do something original with vision but being handicapped and having to make it reminiscent of the Infinity Engine games.

 

Mechanically almost everything "original" seems to be a problem. Obsidian should have been original with the races/lore, and be very traditional with the mechanics.

 

 

When you try to reinvent the wheel there is a good (actualy a 100%) chance that your new hexagonal wheel will not work as good as your traditional round wheel (see guild wars 2 for reference)

[Karkarov]

 

Mechanically almost everything "original" seems to be a problem. Obsidian should have been original with the races/lore, and be very traditional with the mechanics.

 

When you try to reinvent the wheel there is a good (actualy a 100%) chance that your new hexagonal wheel will not work as good as your traditional round wheel (see guild wars 2 for reference)

This is the part where I remind you guys that they don't have a D&D license and as a result can not copy the systems of the Infinity Engine games and as such had no choice.

[MReed]

This post makes me wish this forum had a dislike button.

 

This game needs less BG because most of this games real flaws come from them wanting to do something original with vision but being handicapped and having to make it reminiscent of the Infinity Engine games.

 

 

 

Mechanically almost everything "original" seems to be a problem. Obsidian should have been original with the races/lore, and be very traditional with the mechanics.

 

 

I suspect that both of you are correct:

 

The game was pitched as a game similar to the old Infinity Engine games -- but the developers never really wanted to do that.  A more accurate Kickstarter would have been for a game that "...will reinvent the Western RPG genre, leading to a second 'Golden Age' of RPGs".  Of course, that Kickstarter likely would have been considerably less successful... 

 

How to resolve this conflict?  I don't think there is a good answer -- the best Obsidian can hope for is to continue down the path that they have chosen and hope that by the time the full game is released that the original backers will have accepted the new mechanics as (at least) acceptable or are no longer participating in discussions (to avoid negative reviews).  That seems like a long-shot at this point, but there are still months to go until release.

 

The alternative is to try to redesign the games mechanics from the ground up -- and it seems very unlikely that the budget will cover such a major redesign at this point.

[Giubba]

 

 

Mechanically almost everything "original" seems to be a problem. Obsidian should have been original with the races/lore, and be very traditional with the mechanics.

 

When you try to reinvent the wheel there is a good (actualy a 100%) chance that your new hexagonal wheel will not work as good as your traditional round wheel (see guild wars 2 for reference)

This is the part where I remind you guys that they don't have a D&D license and as a result can not copy the systems of the Infinity Engine games and as such had no choice.

 

 

This is the part where i remind you that D&D do not have any royalty over every d20 system baesd on strength,dex,con,int,wis,char.

[Namutree]

 

 

Mechanically almost everything "original" seems to be a problem. Obsidian should have been original with the races/lore, and be very traditional with the mechanics.

 

When you try to reinvent the wheel there is a good (actualy a 100%) chance that your new hexagonal wheel will not work as good as your traditional round wheel (see guild wars 2 for reference)

This is the part where I remind you guys that they don't have a D&D license and as a result can not copy the systems of the Infinity Engine games and as such had no choice.

 

Easy ways around that:

 

A) Switch wisdom for resolve which could involve only a minor game-play change where resolve also makes you less likely to panic.

 

B) Make the number system a bit higher so it doesn't use a d20.

 

C) Introduce some minor new game-play concept like the health/stamina system (Except make it very generous so it doesn't really matter) to say, "We're not d&d! Check out our health/stamina system!"

 

Done. Effectively the same game-play without being sued.

[Giubba]

While we are it, remove any dialogue choice regarding stats and move the same dialogue choice to a serie of skills influenced by stats.

 

At the moment the main char must waste point in stats that influence only the conversation.

[Psykhe]

 

 

 

Ok. Here is my constructive criticism:

 

1. Return classic intuitive stats (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma). Don't want to have dump stats? Just make sure that there is logical explanation why should Wizard take high Strength. Maybe there could be builds of melee wizard? Or maybe Strength could contribute to defenses vs. some kind of physical attacks (like knockouts). No need to actually use D&D system, just use classic stats that are self-explanatory.

 

2. Return classic IE inventory and add more filters/etc to it. Bring back item weight and encumbance. No more console-like infinite stashes! If you want more space - buy magic bags. 

 

3. Remove at least 50% of abilities from non-casters and make others mostly in format of 'enabled / disabled'. This will greatly reduce amount of micromanagement that is required in combat.

This post makes me wish this forum had a dislike button.

 

This game needs less BG because most of this games real flaws come from them wanting to do something original with vision but being handicapped and having to make it reminiscent of the Infinity Engine games.

 

Mechanically almost everything "original" seems to be a problem. Obsidian should have been original with the races/lore, and be very traditional with the mechanics.

 

 

When you try to reinvent the wheel there is a good (actualy a 100%) chance that your new hexagonal wheel will not work as good as your traditional round wheel (see guild wars 2 for reference)

 

 

Apart from what Karkarov already said (that they cannot just copy D&D) this assumes that the old system was perfect.

 

If the old wheel is hexagonal reinventing the wheel might be a good idea. You might make a square wheel, but you also might make one which is rounder than the old one. Into which direction PoE goes remains to be seen.

 

Regarding Mrakvampires points: I wouldn't consider those "constructive criticism", at least not at this stage, He might just as well said "Make the game true Skyrim like 3D".

He essentially says "Redo most class mechanics and the whole attribute system". Those are no "easy fixes", that is redesigning a significant part of the game. Realistically it is around a year too late for changes of this magnitude,

[Giubba]

 

 

 

 

Ok. Here is my constructive criticism:

 

1. Return classic intuitive stats (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma). Don't want to have dump stats? Just make sure that there is logical explanation why should Wizard take high Strength. Maybe there could be builds of melee wizard? Or maybe Strength could contribute to defenses vs. some kind of physical attacks (like knockouts). No need to actually use D&D system, just use classic stats that are self-explanatory.

 

2. Return classic IE inventory and add more filters/etc to it. Bring back item weight and encumbance. No more console-like infinite stashes! If you want more space - buy magic bags. 

 

3. Remove at least 50% of abilities from non-casters and make others mostly in format of 'enabled / disabled'. This will greatly reduce amount of micromanagement that is required in combat.

This post makes me wish this forum had a dislike button.

 

This game needs less BG because most of this games real flaws come from them wanting to do something original with vision but being handicapped and having to make it reminiscent of the Infinity Engine games.

 

Mechanically almost everything "original" seems to be a problem. Obsidian should have been original with the races/lore, and be very traditional with the mechanics.

 

 

When you try to reinvent the wheel there is a good (actualy a 100%) chance that your new hexagonal wheel will not work as good as your traditional round wheel (see guild wars 2 for reference)

 

 

Apart from what Karkarov already said (that they cannot just copy D&D) this assumes that the old system was perfect.

 

It wasn't but it does its job admirably well.

[Wintersong]

I agree that all classes should be interesting. In my opinion, they already were in the old IE games. While fighters were gear based the mages were ability based. It made sense.

In AD&D, fighters were crap except early game. Wizards were totally broken once they started to level up. Worst offender? Learning how to alter the fabric of the universe to do stuff life fireballs, creating magic items, granting wishes... is apparently as easy as to learn how to swing the sword a few extra times. True story.  

 

Giving martial classes active abilities/maneuvers is good. To pretend to send them back to the pure meatshield that can only offer weapon specialization and armor proficiencies... And that they don't add strategy/tactics (we should remove spells from magic users to add more strategy/tactics in combat!!!)... or immersion... or that it's a way to "casualize"... 

 

If you don't think that magic is special despite being able to cast fireballs, heal people and stuff like that just because figthers can have skills that allow them to prone enemies or rogues can use finishing strikes...

 

At least the thread is not "More like DA2, please"?

[Namutree]

 

If the old wheel is hexagonal reinventing the wheel might be a good idea. You might make a square wheel, but you also might make one which is rounder than the old one. Into which direction PoE goes remains to be seen.

 

It was pitched as a successor to the IE games. It should play like them. If major changes are not made; it won't. Even if poe turns out better it will be a failure to achieve it's stated goal. Poe wasn't pitch as a reinvented wheel. It was pitched as a return to the old model with cosmetic improvements.

 

 

 

Regarding Mrakvampires points: I wouldn't consider those "constructive criticism", at least not at this stage, He might just as well said "Make the game true Skyrim like 3D".

He essentially says "Redo most class mechanics and the whole attribute system". Those are no "easy fixes", that is redesigning a significant part of the game. Realistically it is around a year too late for changes of this magnitude,

 

Agree 100% with this.

[Namutree]

 

I agree that all classes should be interesting. In my opinion, they already were in the old IE games. While fighters were gear based the mages were ability based. It made sense.

In AD&D, fighters were crap except early game. Wizards were totally broken once they started to level up. Worst offender? Learning how to alter the fabric of the universe to do stuff life fireballs, 

No one cares about the AD&D system at it's core. This is about the IE games, and the IE games made fighters plenty useful in the end. Heck, Sarevok was the best companion. Not to mention that the game designers could easily design the enemies around the end to have anti-wizard abilities and resistances to make those crap fighters just as useful as the wizards.

 

What we want is for the supposed IE successor to play like an IE game. I know that sounds crazy, but I think it would have been just crazy enough to work.

[Grand_Commander13]

Nerfing the crap out of your mages is not a good way to make your fighters more useful; the fighters aren't being made cool to play, the mages are being made lame to play.

 

If you're going to make your mage epically powerful, you need to make your fighter just as awesome.

[hairyscotsman2]

 

 

 

Mechanically almost everything "original" seems to be a problem. Obsidian should have been original with the races/lore, and be very traditional with the mechanics.

 

When you try to reinvent the wheel there is a good (actualy a 100%) chance that your new hexagonal wheel will not work as good as your traditional round wheel (see guild wars 2 for reference)

This is the part where I remind you guys that they don't have a D&D license and as a result can not copy the systems of the Infinity Engine games and as such had no choice.

 

 

This is the part where i remind you that D&D do not have any royalty over every d20 system baesd on strength,dex,con,int,wis,char.

 

Am I alone in having an opinion that goes something like: No way on this earth I would have backed any RPG tied to the awful, unbalanced and soul destroying systems of early D&D? I played that way for 24 years, lost potential players to the inherent and undecipherable class progression and balance differences and there's no way on this earth I'm going back to it, unless its the last game in town, which it won't be if I have any say in it whatsoever.

[Giubba]

 

 

 

 

Mechanically almost everything "original" seems to be a problem. Obsidian should have been original with the races/lore, and be very traditional with the mechanics.

 

When you try to reinvent the wheel there is a good (actualy a 100%) chance that your new hexagonal wheel will not work as good as your traditional round wheel (see guild wars 2 for reference)

This is the part where I remind you guys that they don't have a D&D license and as a result can not copy the systems of the Infinity Engine games and as such had no choice.

 

 

This is the part where i remind you that D&D do not have any royalty over every d20 system baesd on strength,dex,con,int,wis,char.

 

Am I alone in having an opinion that goes something like: No way on this earth I would have backed any RPG tied to the awful, unbalanced and soul destroying systems of early D&D? I played that way for 24 years, lost potential players to the inherent and undecipherable class progression and balance differences and there's no way on this earth I'm going back to it, unless its the last game in town, which it won't be if I have any say in it whatsoever.

 

 

1. Maybe the reading comprehension of the nayser isn't high enough. I never wrote that i wanted D&D system but a d20 system with canonical stats
2. Lol pretty much incredible how the cornerstone of RPG gaming (BG1&2,IDW1&2,Torment) sudddenly became "awful, unbalanced and soul destroying systems"

[krellen]

Lol pretty much incredible how the cornerstone of RPG gaming (BG1&2,IDW1&2,Torment) sudddenly became "awful, unbalanced and soul destroying systems"

 

 

Well, to be fair, 2nd edition is by far the worst-balanced and least enjoyable iteration of D&D to date.  It was a spectacularly terrible system, and the games that used it as a base were great despite it, not because of it.

 

So far, I'm not terribly impressed with what PoE is doing instead, but I definitely can't support a "let's go back to 2E" movement.

[Giubba]

Basically every new interation of D&D since the classic one has a bunch of people that think that is the worst piece of crap ever spawned by human mind.

 

I'm not terrible impressed by those kind of statemente since the 90s.

[krellen]

Basically every new interation of D&D since the classic one has a bunch of people that think that is the worst piece of crap ever spawned by human mind.

 

I'm not terrible impressed by those kind of statemente since the 90s.

Except I'm not talking about a new iteration, clinging to the old. I'm talking about a ranking of all the iterations since the original AD&D. 2nd Edition ranks in the back of all versions.  1st edition was wonky, but had some fun exploits and oddities that 2nd edition "fixed", to its detriment.  4th edition is a weird attempt at making play different, with some systems that work well and some that are bloated and ugly, but overall it's more fun to play than 2nd edition.  3rd edition greatly simplified systems, making them easier to understand and slightly more modal, leading to a deeper game than 2nd edition.  There just isn't anything that 2nd edition has to offer that isn't done better by one of its predecessors or successors.  2nd edition just doesn't bring anything to the table - it was what we had at the time those games were made, but it's certainly not a bar to measure games against today.

 

Baldur's Gate and Torment were great because of the writing and stories, not because of the combat mechanics.  The greatest weakness of all the IE titles was always the combat mechanics, and that's because 2nd edition is simply not very well designed, especially for implementation by a computer that cannot fudge rules on the fly as can a human Dungeon Master.

[Helm]

 

 

More like BG2 please

You do realise that Sawyer is not a fan of Baldur's Gate 2. Right?

[Panteleimon]

 

 

 

More like BG2 please

You do realise that Sawyer is not a fan of Baldur's Gate 2. Right?

 

 

Out of curiosity, do you know the reason/s?