This game needs polish!

[cabal23]

 

That said... they should have waited a little. We got a list of things to look for as high-priority feedback, and especially the combat is too borked at the moment to be really able to say anything.

I have played aplhas and betas as well and to say that this is a normal beta is just not true. This is way more alpha than beta. How did they graduate it to beta knowing the crazy issues it has in it's present sate? Having quests disappear and inventory disappear are game breaking issues. Quests and inventory are the crux of the game. Without them we have animated figures running around in pretty environments. Call me crazy but one would think they would have at least made the game playable somewhat before lauching such a large beta. Fix those two issues and I will report bugs all day with a smile on my face. I can't report bugs if the game doesn't work. Why would I do that to myself? I need some incentive to move forward and if I don't have any quests due to them disappearing there isn't really a whole lot of reason to continue. So those peope saying they should have waited a few weeks are spot on.  I am not going to let my fanboy hopes of this game doing well get in the way of some glaring problems that scream for someones attention. 

[StrangeCat]

This is the first Beta.  Before GamesCon even.   meaning they only had so much time to even get a Beta out to be at Gamescon.

All the issues and everything written about don't matter to much yet.(Helpful of course)  Most of them they probably know already.  Wait till were on Beta three or two then you can't start seeing major improvements to the game.

I won't bring up to much till about month into the Betas.

[Marceror]

 

 

Would everyone be relieved if Obsidian announced a delay of a few months for release?

 

Judging from the forums and my repeated attempts to play through the beta, the sheer volume of small bugs, big bugs, gamebreaking bugs, visual issues, UI issues, combat issues, balance issues, attribute issues, class issues and overall design issues with the game is quite disconcerting if they plan on releasing the game this year.

 

Doesn't much matter to me when the game comes out, but I think it's a bit premature to be calling for a delay. That entirely depends on how quickly they can knock out these bugs.

 

 

Yeah exactly the beta is out for 2 days now.

 

Actually at the time you posted it was exactly 4 1/2 days. Doesn't make a lot of difference to the argument, but I really would have hoped we would have seen a patch by now to address some of the more egregious bugs. The beta to me is fundamentally broken at this point, and I'm hopeful OE will address this will all haste.

[talharbash]

Would everyone be relieved if Obsidian announced a delay of a few months for release?

 

 

It depends on how much progress they can make in a short amount of time. We don't know if the path finding problem is just a small bug or whether they need to sit down and come up with a whole new algorithm, implement it, fix it, and get feedback.

 

I'm a little surprised we didn't see a quick patch come out the same week to address the low hanging fruit. Maybe there isn't any and they need more time.

[Marceror]

 

Would everyone be relieved if Obsidian announced a delay of a few months for release?

 

 

It depends on how much progress they can make in a short amount of time. We don't know if the path finding problem is just a small bug or whether they need to sit down and come up with a whole new algorithm, implement it, fix it, and get feedback.

 

I'm a little surprised we didn't see a quick patch come out the same week to address the low hanging fruit. Maybe there isn't any and they need more time.

 

This is one of the things that concerns me. The disappearing items bug was known to OE prior to the BB launch. For how long, I don't know. I think anyone can admit that this is a devastating bug, but it didn't stop OE from postponing the beta.

 

But nearly a week later we still have no fix for what may well be a long standing bug. I've seen one developer comment that seems to indicate that the fix is still a work in progress. So a fix may still be a ways out. But only 3 - 4 months away from launch, I'm wondering how OE can be properly testing all of the game content when the game systems are inherently broken. And disappearing items isn't the only game breaker. Party members getting stuck in place is another devastating bug.

 

So again, there's roughly 150 maps filled with all kinds of content. 3 - 4 months from release we should have people playtesting this game front to back to make sure that, not only every single quest, dialogue, script and system works well, but that the overall progression from start to finish works as expected. I just don't know how you can provide that level of testing when the game is still fundamentally broken. Personally, I'm still unable to complete a SINGLE QUEST without a game breaking bug occurring.

 

People accuse me of jumping to hasty conclusions for having lack of information, but something that I've become pretty good at is connecting dots. In my career I have been told by some that this is something I'm masterful at, as far too often I have to figure things out where I only have a fraction of the necessary information. Not saying that my concerns are on the money in this case, and I hope they aren't. Time will tell on that. But, well, let's just say that my Spidey Sense is tingling, and I've learned to trust that.

 

I'm not sure why that puts so many people off around here, but it certainly was never my intent to "cause a scene". In a few months we'll all know if I'm going to be eating my hat. I look forward to that!

[Osvir]

EDIT - Oh, and looting has been a real problem. Most of the stuff that I loot never makes it to my inventory, and just vanishes.

 

I read something about this, item stacks cause bugs and vanishing inventory. I'm currently testing without picking anything up, just running around an fighting where needed/unavoidable. Heading into Stormwall Gorge directly after character creation (because going East unlocks West too, and avoiding dialogue and interaction in Dyrford Village or any code running in Dyrford for too long).

 

"How can I progress forward and avoid known bugs whilst looking for new ones?"

 

Code seems to be written backwards, most likely a missing string somewhere missing an [end line] or something, causing the code to loop or read backwards.

- Just look at the save file sorting.

- Doing Quests backwards increase chances of success.

- Loading seems to reset stuff.

- Going East to Dyrford Crossing opens up Stormwall as well.

- Going West unlocks only Stormwall. Indicating less buggy.

- Loading game in Stormwall hasn't reset any gear for me.

- Stormwall Gorge feels like the most stable area in this build, imo.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Osvir

[Marceror]

 

EDIT - Oh, and looting has been a real problem. Most of the stuff that I loot never makes it to my inventory, and just vanishes.

 

I read something about this, item stacks cause bugs and vanishing inventory. I'm currently testing without picking anything up, just running around an fighting where needed/unavoidable. Heading into Stormwall Gorge directly (because going East unlocks West too).

 

"How can I progress forward and avoid known bugs whilst looking for new ones?"

 

May the gods bless you my friend. The determination you display is admirable.

[Justinian]

 

So again, there's roughly 150 maps filled with all kinds of content. 3 - 4 months from release we should have people playtesting this game front to back to make sure that, not only every single quest, dialogue, script and system works well, but that the overall progression from start to finish works as expected. I just don't know how you can provide that level of testing when the game is still fundamentally broken. Personally, I'm still unable to complete a SINGLE QUEST without a game breaking bug occurring.

 

This. Generally betas are for balancing, tweaks and bug squashing, but here they're scrambling to ensure the most basic of the basic core functionality is working. Saving and persistence, character movement and AI, inventory, combat - you would hope these are working by the beta stage. It's almost like they prioritised cramming all the content in to make beta status, but neglected to make sure the foundation was solid.

[600lbpanther]

 

 

So again, there's roughly 150 maps filled with all kinds of content. 3 - 4 months from release we should have people playtesting this game front to back to make sure that, not only every single quest, dialogue, script and system works well, but that the overall progression from start to finish works as expected. I just don't know how you can provide that level of testing when the game is still fundamentally broken. Personally, I'm still unable to complete a SINGLE QUEST without a game breaking bug occurring.

 

This. Generally betas are for balancing, tweaks and bug squashing, but here they're scrambling to ensure the most basic of the basic core functionality is working. Saving and persistence, character movement and AI, inventory, combat - you would hope these are working by the beta stage. It's almost like they prioritised cramming all the content in to make beta status, but neglected to make sure the foundation was solid.

 

This is why it is so perplexing that they would choose to release such a small fraction of the game with so many fundamental problems.  One would think that their Q&A department already knew the majority of these glaring problems being reported before being released.  What exactly are they looking for when it comes to feedback beyond "Can you make the game playable?"  To me, it was a less-than-optimum decision on the executive level to release the game as is with all of the concern and negative publicity it is generating.

[Osvir]

Another thing that I can't say myself if working (would need more feedback), but I think the Beta has become more and more stable since I booted it the very first time.

Partially because I'm avoiding bugs I know, surely, but I dunno... I'm curious if this does anything in terms of stability too.

[Marceror]

Some helpful tips in that thread Osvir. I may have to try attempt #10, with no looting.

 

As for increased stability, I would have to surmise that you're just getting really good at avoiding the bugs. I had some better luck yesterday morning with 2 attempts. Followed by 3 that bugged out very, very quickly, with zero save game having been made.

[PrimeJunta]

@Osvir computer programs don't do that. They can get less stable if there are horrid bugs that corrupt files somewhere, but they do not get more stable over time unless patched. I wish they would, it'd save me any amount of bother, but they don't.

 

One thing that could have happened though is that you updated something else on your system which caused bugs to stop manifesting.

 

If not that, if it feels more stable, it must be either that you're just getting used to the instability, or, more likely, you're learning to avoid the things that cause it.

 

That is certainly true in my case. Or, technically, I haven't had any stability issues to speak of as such; not a single CTD and I think one freeze that forced a force-quit. Which is pretty promising actually; the bones of the system are sound. I have however learned to avoid or work around many of the bugs that cause characters to freeze in place (and force a reload) or cause items or quests to disappear (and force a restart). I just played for a pretty long stretch with no problems other than cosmetic ones, but that doesn't mean the game works any better.

[Marceror]

I'm seriously having bad luck with this game. I just created a new game with a chanter, intending never to save and never to loot (except perhaps quest items).

 

So I got into the game world, leveled up my Chanter and spoke to the following individuals, Medreth, the guard on the bridge, the pig farmer, and then went into the Inn to find Nefre (sp?).

 

Upon entering the inn I checked my team's equipment and sure enough, grimoire and wand gone from the wizard, and first weapon set gone from the priest. Nearly exactly what happened in my previous attempt with the game.

 

I'm wondering if there's a way that I can give myself like a bazillion CP, so I can at least afford to purchase replacements every time I lose something. Anyone know how to do that?

[Draksuran]

 

 

Would everyone be relieved if Obsidian announced a delay of a few months for release?

 

 

It depends on how much progress they can make in a short amount of time. We don't know if the path finding problem is just a small bug or whether they need to sit down and come up with a whole new algorithm, implement it, fix it, and get feedback.

 

I'm a little surprised we didn't see a quick patch come out the same week to address the low hanging fruit. Maybe there isn't any and they need more time.

 

This is one of the things that concerns me. The disappearing items bug was known to OE prior to the BB launch. For how long, I don't know. I think anyone can admit that this is a devastating bug, but it didn't stop OE from postponing the beta.

 

But nearly a week later we still have no fix for what may well be a long standing bug. I've seen one developer comment that seems to indicate that the fix is still a work in progress. So a fix may still be a ways out. But only 3 - 4 months away from launch, I'm wondering how OE can be properly testing all of the game content when the game systems are inherently broken. And disappearing items isn't the only game breaker. Party members getting stuck in place is another devastating bug.

 

So again, there's roughly 150 maps filled with all kinds of content. 3 - 4 months from release we should have people playtesting this game front to back to make sure that, not only every single quest, dialogue, script and system works well, but that the overall progression from start to finish works as expected. I just don't know how you can provide that level of testing when the game is still fundamentally broken. Personally, I'm still unable to complete a SINGLE QUEST without a game breaking bug occurring.

 

People accuse me of jumping to hasty conclusions for having lack of information, but something that I've become pretty good at is connecting dots. In my career I have been told by some that this is something I'm masterful at, as far too often I have to figure things out where I only have a fraction of the necessary information. Not saying that my concerns are on the money in this case, and I hope they aren't. Time will tell on that. But, well, let's just say that my Spidey Sense is tingling, and I've learned to trust that.

 

I'm not sure why that puts so many people off around here, but it certainly was never my intent to "cause a scene". In a few months we'll all know if I'm going to be eating my hat. I look forward to that!

 

 

Why don't you wait and see after the first patch how many issues have been resolved and then you can continue making remarks. Do you think getting so agitated about the bugs (in a beta of course) will be helpful in any way? If you really want to help this game be the best it is, stop adding unnecessary commentary/humble bragging/hand-wringing. State the issues and move on.

 

If you need a good example of this, look to Osvir's post.

[Marceror]

Why don't you wait and see after the first patch how many issues have been resolved and then you can continue making remarks. Do you think getting so agitated about the bugs (in a beta of course) will be helpful in any way? If you really want to help this game be the best it is, stop adding unnecessary commentary/humble bragging/hand-wringing. State the issues and move on.

 

If you need a good example of this, look to Osvir's post.

 

 

/sigh

 

Why do you have a problem with me expressing my opinions? How is it hurting you? I'm well within my rights to share my opinions and concerns about the game, I'm not being disrespectful to anyone, and to the best of my knowledge I'm not violating any forum rules, so I don't see the issue.

 

Regarding your comment about Osvir, in the few days I've been dialoging with him this week I've come to respect his posting style even if we haven't agreed on everything. But his posting style is his. I have my own way of posting and expressing my opinions. And so does most everyone, for that matter. There are plenty of posters here that post in a manner that I don't enjoy, but I'm not asking anyone to change. I'm not sure why you feel so bold as to insinuate that I should do so.

 

And lastly, you seem to have this impression that I'm "so agitated" and that I'm wringing my hands. I just want to clarify that I'm not losing any sleep over any of this stuff. I want a great game, and yes I care. But in the greater scheme of things I fully realize that this is "just a game". I dare say I haven't squeezed my hands together once over any of this.

[wickermoon]

 

 

So again, there's roughly 150 maps filled with all kinds of content. 3 - 4 months from release we should have people playtesting this game front to back to make sure that, not only every single quest, dialogue, script and system works well, but that the overall progression from start to finish works as expected. I just don't know how you can provide that level of testing when the game is still fundamentally broken. Personally, I'm still unable to complete a SINGLE QUEST without a game breaking bug occurring.

 

This. Generally betas are for balancing, tweaks and bug squashing, but here they're scrambling to ensure the most basic of the basic core functionality is working. Saving and persistence, character movement and AI, inventory, combat - you would hope these are working by the beta stage. It's almost like they prioritised cramming all the content in to make beta status, but neglected to make sure the foundation was solid.

 

 

Just a reminder: Ending the Alpha phase means "Feature complete". Feature complete means that every feature of the game is implemented without the necessity of being bug-free. This is where beta starts. Everyone complaining about bugs: This was to be expected. This is not a WoW-Beta (or any other MMO, for that matter) where it's just for advertising a game. This is a real beta. A beta which used to be done by "professional" beta testers who knew what they were getting into.

 

OE told you guys that this is the same demo as the one on GamesCom. Convention demos are always - without any exception - buggy PoS. It's made to impress customers, not to work properly. No convention demo ever is actually representing the product in any way, shape or form.

Edited August 24, 2014 by wickermoon

[Marceror]

I don't really want to jinx myself, but I'm happy to report that I'm currently involved in my best run yet. I've actually managed to complete the Ogre quest, and I'm currently working on the quest to find the nobles daughter. I've managed to get through tons of fights. I've managed make a good amount of money and find some nice loot. For once, I'm actually making some real progress. The only negative is that this is happening with a Cipher, which isn't the class I most wanted to play... but it's a good chance to learn the class just the same. Not a bad archer/mage-y combo, actually.

 

I've probably ruined my chances of getting much farther by making this post, LOL. Also, I've been "cheating" a little bit and making a save game here and there, but promptly copying it to a temporary folder on my desktop. No repercussions yet for doing that.

 

Wow, feels good to actually get a feel for the game.

[Kollblade]

I think at times people get "beta" and "early release" mixed up. Don't get me wrong it is easy to do. Now days a lot of companies will give you beta access as a marketing ploy, when the truth is the game is just about done. That is not the case with PoE. It is still very raw and you know what... that's ok.

 

I know there are issues, combat is a disaster and the UI is a mess. If you test drove a car with a working engine but nothing else, you would probably be pretty unhappy with the experience. You for sure wouldn't want to take that car on a road trip or drive it to work everyday.

 

That's what is going on here. The car runs... it just doesn't do anything else.

 

Let them add the seats, the AC, the brakes, heck even the cup holders before we place judgment.

[Marceror]

Well, it was a pretty good run... while it lasted. I managed to complete 2 quests (Ogre and Noble's "Daughter") and reach level 7 before heading back to town. When trying to take something out of my group stash I wound up with that item stuck in my pointer, but I was unable to place it into any inventory slot. I was unable to put it back in the stash or close out of the character window... so ultimately just had to quit the game.

 

I do have a few save games that I put on my desktop, so maybe I'll try to give the most recent one a chance. Also, less critical bug was my rogue's per encounter abilities getting stuck in "active" mode, meaning I couldn't use them anymore. When she got incapacitated while using these in a couple of combats, they became stuck in the on state.

 

On the other hand, I never had a single item disappear or a character get stuck in place. It took me 10 attempts at the game to be able to say that!

 

The Cipher isn't a bad class. Not one I would likely use a lot, but basically he can fire arrows to build focus and he has mostly a lot of debuff spells he can cast with that focus. So where I see the priest as a great buffer, the cipher does well with debuffs and crowd control.

[Marceror]

As for the beta comments, I wasn't given the impression that the backers were intended to be the true beta testers of this game. We weren't given the full game to test, but just a sliver. The majority of the bugs that we're encountering were discovered prior to us being given access to the backer beta, and it's a pretty limited amount of stuff that we even can test for. Mostly, I get the impression that we're supposed to test drive the classes a bit, along with some experimentation with crafting/enchanting, resting, and inns/hiring adventurers. But that can be pretty hard to do when the game is breaking left and right.

 

Plus, with perhaps a few exceptions, the backers aren't professional beta testers, so it is not appropriate in my view for Obsidian to expect us to conduct ourselves as if we are. If Obsidian truly expected the majority of the backers to understand that they were receiving a something that was known to be largely unplayable, without offering a single word of warning beforehand, than I say that was poor judgment on their part. They did offer a list of known bugs in update 84, but there was no mention of the game breaking bugs in that list. It's almost as if they want to sweep those under the rug.

 

Again, comparing to the Wasteland 2 Beta, the backers were only brought in once the game had a solid foundation, was generally stable, and game breaking bugs were very rare. For a larger scale beta that includes fans rather than professional beta testers, this seems like a much more reasonable way to handle it.

[kozzy]

 

Seeing how much a game like Wasteland 2 improved over time, I have no worries with this to be honest. The UI in Wasteland 2 bothered me so much when the first version came out, but later on now I love it. Same goes for the performance early on it was meh performance wise and now it is fantastic in that aspect. I would expect Obsidian to crack down on the bugs and optimization, this is usually the time for such things. They have the rest of the year if im not mistaken to work on bugs/polish,etc..

 

Same goes for Divinity original sin to some degree (but not as extreme as wasteland 2 imo), the issues I had in beta where fixed by the time the game came out. Now until the end of the year is a good amount of time for Obsidian to hunt down the bugs n add some poish.

 

The Wasteland 2 beta is actually the metric I'm using to conclude that the game will unlikely be ready for release in 3-4 months. At release the Wasteland 2 beta felt less buggy than this and it's still taken them over 8 months to get to where they are now. That said, they did add a lot of content and features during the beta period, which Obsidian won't need to do but still...

 

I think Obsidian's reputation with buggy releases is preceding them and influencing concerns aswell.

 

Nope, at the start of beta there was numerous issues I had, now they are gone.  Obsidian has alot of time to add more polish, it is on track with what I have seen with Divinity  Original Sin and Wasteland 2 near the end of there alpha/start of beta. We will have to agree to disagree, but having played Wastealnd 2 and Divinity since early alpha, it makes me extremely excited for Pillars and what we have so far. I had many issues with Divinity and Wasteland 2 4-5 months before they came out, all of which got fixed by the time the games came out (will come out in wasteland 2's case in 2 weeks). I was a little worried with those 2 and the problems I had, but seeing how those got cleaned up nicely and I actually have less issues with pillars than I did with those two 4/5 months before release (Divinity performance/Wasteland UI and optimization).

 

This game comes out at the end of the year,  with 4-5 months to go for Divinity's release and 4-5 months to go for Wasteland 2's release, they are all pretty even imo. One thing aswell is that this is a very early beta version. The 3 games I have mentioned are all doing things slightly different (Pillars only a small portion compared to Divinity and Wasteland2, we got W2 and DOS in Alpha,etc..) but overall there quality 4/5 months out of release are very close imo. We will have to agree to disagree. Also some betas seem to come out 1-2 months before a game is out and are just really the end of the beta stage, while this seems to be at the very start of beta stage, with still 4-5 months to go.

Edited August 24, 2014 by kozzy

[reavor]

 

Plus, with perhaps a few exceptions, the backers aren't professional beta testers, so it is not appropriate in my view for Obsidian to expect us to conduct ourselves as if we are. If Obsidian truly expected the majority of the backers to understand that they were receiving a something that was known to be largely unplayable, without offering a single word of warning beforehand, than I say that was poor judgment on their part. They did offer a list of known bugs in update 84, but there was no mention of the game breaking bugs in that list. It's almost as if they want to sweep those under the rug.

 

Again, comparing to the Wasteland 2 Beta, the backers were only brought in once the game had a solid foundation, was generally stable, and game breaking bugs were very rare. For a larger scale beta that includes fans rather than professional beta testers, this seems like a much more reasonable way to handle it.

 

It is not unplayable, I have played several hours of it, even without any major crashes. There are some serious bugs, mainly regarding inventory and exp, and some serious balancing issues. The game is playable for sure, but needs polish. But to me, polish does not mean "break down and rebuild from scratch". There was plenty of warning before hand of known issues. The beta has only been going for 5 days, let's see how it looks in 2 months.

[Marceror]

 

 

Plus, with perhaps a few exceptions, the backers aren't professional beta testers, so it is not appropriate in my view for Obsidian to expect us to conduct ourselves as if we are. If Obsidian truly expected the majority of the backers to understand that they were receiving a something that was known to be largely unplayable, without offering a single word of warning beforehand, than I say that was poor judgment on their part. They did offer a list of known bugs in update 84, but there was no mention of the game breaking bugs in that list. It's almost as if they want to sweep those under the rug.

 

Again, comparing to the Wasteland 2 Beta, the backers were only brought in once the game had a solid foundation, was generally stable, and game breaking bugs were very rare. For a larger scale beta that includes fans rather than professional beta testers, this seems like a much more reasonable way to handle it.

 

It is not unplayable, I have played several hours of it, even without any major crashes. There are some serious bugs, mainly regarding inventory and exp, and some serious balancing issues. The game is playable for sure, but needs polish. But to me, polish does not mean "break down and rebuild from scratch". There was plenty of warning before hand of known issues. The beta has only been going for 5 days, let's see how it looks in 2 months.

 

Steam tells me that I have clocked in 8 hours with the beta, and I haven't had a single game crash myself. I'm aware that others are experiencing crashes, but game crashing hasn't been one of my specific points of discussion. I've stated those points multiple times, so I won't repeat them here.

 

I've also never said the beta was unplayable. I have said things like "largely unplayable" and this comment is based on my personal experiences and an overwhelming number of forum posts I've been seeing. For me, I have started 10 separate PoE BB games to date. The first 9 encountered a game breaking bug before I could complete a single quest. Attempt number 10 was glorious in comparison, as I managed to complete 2 quests and get my party to level 7 before I experienced a game breaking bug.

 

It seems some are having better luck than others. So if you're not getting hit by the game breakers, than god bless you.

[PrimeJunta]

I'm seriously having bad luck with this game. I just created a new game with a chanter, intending never to save and never to loot (except perhaps quest items).

 

So I got into the game world, leveled up my Chanter and spoke to the following individuals, Medreth, the guard on the bridge, the pig farmer, and then went into the Inn to find Nefre (sp?).

 

Upon entering the inn I checked my team's equipment and sure enough, grimoire and wand gone from the wizard, and first weapon set gone from the priest. Nearly exactly what happened in my previous attempt with the game.

 

I'm wondering if there's a way that I can give myself like a bazillion CP, so I can at least afford to purchase replacements every time I lose something. Anyone know how to do that?

 

Use the item duplication exploit. Open Inventory, equip your most precious items if not already equipped, and double-click to un-equip. Then switch to another character and back. You'll have backup copies in your inventory. I take a couple of backups of the grimoires as a matter of course, just in case.

[Marceror]

Use the item duplication exploit. Open Inventory, equip your most precious items if not already equipped, and double-click to un-equip. Then switch to another character and back. You'll have backup copies in your inventory. I take a couple of backups of the grimoires as a matter of course, just in case.

 

Holy s$%^! That sounds bloody fantastic. I will have to try that out next time!