Sarex Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I am glad you are not the Dev.Those comments are not so called a respect to all those help funding the project. The fact that he felt the need to make a comment like that should tell you all you need to know about him, just ignore him. "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shdy314 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) This is kind of funny actually. My head says combat XP (and systemic XP in general) is bad design and a bad idea. But my heart misses it. There's nothing "funny" about that. The heart responds to stuff that makes the person feel good. It's called human nature. A page or so ago someone brought up how eating Pizza and Pie may be enjoyable but it's still "not a good idea". Yeah, here's my response: Screw that. Opting for a plate of celery sticks and carrots instead, because they constitute "a good idea".... does not sound appealing or satisfying to me. And games are supposed to be a guilty pleasure indulgence...not...whatever that person is suggesting. Hey that was me. Give credit where credit is due. Your response is as vapid as ever. Its the FAT. A system that is terrible but loaded with junk that makes your brain melt is not a good system even though you may get hooked on it. But hey screw that and chow down man. Not hurting anyone but yourself. (Because PoE won't have your junky system in case that wasn't clear.) Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C2B Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I am glad you are not the Dev. Those comments are not so called a respect to all those help funding the project. The fact that he felt the need to make a comment like that should tell you all you need to know about him, just ignore him. k' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helm Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 This is kind of funny actually. My head says combat XP (and systemic XP in general) is bad design and a bad idea. But my heart misses it. Yes... I can feel your anger Give into your feelings, let the XP flow through you Heheheh 2 Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helm Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I'm a proponent of combat XP, C2B. Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C2B Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I'm a proponent of combat XP, C2B. I'm ok with combat xp btw. I prefer (more involved than shown in beta) objective xp, but its either way for me. Not a fan of insulting devs though. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Hey that was me. Give credit where credit is due. Your response is as vapid as ever. Its the FAT. A system that is terrible but loaded with junk that makes your brain melt is not a good system even though you may get hooked on it.I beg your pardon. But have you ever had a good steak? The best cuts of steak are *marbled*.... meaning they contain fat mixed with meat. They taste better that way. Problem: You freaks don't want this. You want a 100% fat-free slab of... whatever. More to the point: While arguing that "Fat is bad, and therefore its total removal can only be a good thing" may sound good on paper, it never, ever translates well in Games...which are ultimately perceived and judged by the emotion-based humans who play them. The Dopamine fixes ARE real. Ignoring their influence will only lead to a game that doesn't feel right. Edited August 21, 2014 by Stun 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndiraLightfoot Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Wow, wow, wow, concealed developer in the thread. All must be aware!!! Maybe it's fake account of that guy.. How was his name? Something with Sawyer. HA! Come on Hamster you do not have to be a dev to know when it is too late for massive changes to a game. They want this out asap. Look at the feedback they asked for. Big sweeping changes suggested will simply be ignored. Even if there were a supermajority of backers calling blood it is unlikely Obsidian can afford to delay. We'll see, we'll see. After all, Obsidian's reputation is on stake. I don't think they have to worry about any of you. Also keep this thread going. Helps me entertain myself. I am glad you are not the Dev.Those comments are not so called a respect to all those help funding the project. k' Weird lash out on C2B. He just pointed out that the devs wouldn't need to worry about us in that regard, described by Shdy314 and Mrakvampire. It doesn't make sense. C2B wasn't disrespectful, IMHO. C2B: Keep having fun, reading this thread. Just shrug it off, if you already haven't. 1 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneckdevil Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) redneckdevil: Those are fair points. Unfortunately, I'm too set in my ways! My gourmet slow food CRPG combat machine runs on one fuel only: xp. I'm one of those people that loathes crafting of almost every kind (except building epic weapons out of a few extremely rare pieces spread out in four foreign lands). Moreover, I'm not looking forward to that stronghold one bit. I'm not much for money sink hubs of that kind. I'm in it for exploration, story, companions and regular xp and character/party development. Power kicks when playing my party ain't much of an issue. Sometimes, I gimp my pc or my entire party, just because I feel like it. As long as I can give them fun challenges regularly fuelled by xp, I'm quite satisfied. Fair enough. So im guessing that the no kill exp system is actually broken and can actually works, the problem is the absence of the mental reward ingrained in us through the years of the currency/reward called kill exp? I understand about crafting, alot of tikes crafting ingame leads to the same problem in pnp unchecked and thats a surplus/advantage that points u ahead and further than where u normally would be at. Sometimes crafting can break a system that it can actually discourage exploration as well. Is there a possibility that people could stand back and open their minds to this and try something new? OR shoukd we ask for an option to for a way to turn on/off kill exp for players? Have it still designed to follow the quest exp only progression but for people who are wanting to progress and hit lvl cap earlier be able to? That way people who opt for no kill exp still progress and the game can still be designed around that as they intended and people who want kill exp can get it but design it to where the kills are low but still able to advance past the current intended level? Would this be the ideal solution? Both parties win and also both parties still have a reason to try each option out? I mean there are people who are enjoying the no kill exp that some people are saying is a totally failure (which is wrong because there wouldnt be people enjoying it if it was) and some people are not enjoying it because they cant get past not being rewarded exp for everything. Why not give an option for both? Because i am really enjoying the hell out of the current system as it is and i dont want my fun hampered by change, but i understand not all people are like me and would like them to have fun as well. Edited August 21, 2014 by redneckdevil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyFox Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Someone brought up crafting in this thread so I'm going to ask this here: Does crafting so far feel like NWN2 crafting? (couldn't stand that system) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndiraLightfoot Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 That would be ideal. Then both sides would be happy - like that the slimmed UI, which also has the option to be transformed into an old-school stone slab taking up a third of the screen. As for crafting. Yeah. It so easily destroys game balance. Two examples: MotB and elemental crafting, or Skyrim, just to pick two right off the bat. 1 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 There are a lot of ingredients you have to find just to brew the simplest of potions. I'm not sure one *can* engage in crafting in the beta. But I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyFox Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I'd rather just have BG2 style crafting where it's only for the epic/legendary type of items. The Equalizer, Flail of Ages, etc. Oh well more inventory fodder to sift through I guess. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shdy314 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 That would be ideal. Then both sides would be happy - like that the slimmed UI, which also has the option to be transformed into an old-school stone slab taking up a third of the screen. As for crafting. Yeah. It so easily destroys game balance. Two examples: MotB and elemental crafting, or Skyrim, just to pick two right off the bat. Crafting input was feedback they specifically asked for. Test it out extensively and tell Obsidian everything wrong with it. Too late for killxp but you may be able to fix crafting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarex Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Weird lash out on C2B. He just pointed out that the devs wouldn't need to worry about us in that regard, described by Shdy314 and Mrakvampire. It doesn't make sense. C2B wasn't disrespectful, IMHO. C2B: Keep having fun, reading this thread. Just shrug it off, if you already haven't. If he didn't mean it in a negative way towards those who want some change, then I sincerely apologize to C2B. Though it certainly sounded like he said that we don't matter. As for Obsidian's reputation, well if this game fails, it will hurt their reputation in my eyes, especially if it turns out that the game failed because of the problems they were warned about and they chose to ignore, early in the development. "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarex Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) I'd rather just have BG2 style crafting where it's only for the epic/legendary type of items. The Equalizer, Flail of Ages, etc. Oh well more inventory fodder to sift through I guess. That was one of the most epic parts of the game and is also something that was suggested. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also who says it's too late for the xp system, I think it would take less time to go back to a know xp system, then to figure out how to make this one work. Edited August 21, 2014 by Sarex 1 "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdaMusic Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I'd rather just have BG2 style crafting where it's only for the epic/legendary type of items. The Equalizer, Flail of Ages, etc. Oh well more inventory fodder to sift through I guess. I'd also prefer that approach. But I dislike crafting in about all games but BG2 so I guess I'm kinda biased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helm Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I'd rather just have BG2 style crafting where it's only for the epic/legendary type of items. The Equalizer, Flail of Ages, etc. Oh well more inventory fodder to sift through I guess. I believe this is what Obsidian was originally planning. But then the critters wouldn't drop any crafting materials because the crafting system wouldn't support it, which would make combat even more pointless than it already is. 1 Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rillifane Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Weird lash out on C2B. He just pointed out that the devs wouldn't need to worry about us in that regard, described by Shdy314 and Mrakvampire. It doesn't make sense. C2B wasn't disrespectful, IMHO. C2B: Keep having fun, reading this thread. Just shrug it off, if you already haven't. If he didn't mean it in a negative way towards those who want some change, then I sincerely apologize to C2B. Though it certainly sounded like he said that we don't matter. As for Obsidian's reputation, well if this game fails, it will hurt their reputation in my eyes, especially if it turns out that the game failed because of the problems they were warned about and they chose to ignore, early in the development. Same here. To be honest, we hard-core rpg fans are in sort of "Minority" these days. It's somewhat a "miracle" that PoE get so much love and trust. But it also means it would be unwise to divide the fan base among such an important aspects of design. We still want to see the expansion and the sequel going on. If the project fail to earn most of its supporters, the vision of the project won't be bright. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amentep Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Since killing things was the primary way to advance in levels in the vast majority of those RPGs, they didn't have to. It was a given. Just like they didn't ask if we missed having mages in our party. Or if we missed doing quests for XP. Or if we missed real time with pause. Or if we missed item descriptions on magic items.RTwP is a given? I bet you had strong opinions about the new Torment eh? RTwP was at least as far as Project Eternity is concerned as it was stated be RTwP in the Kickstarter iteslef. That also said, the D&D rules were never on the table; to think that the rules were going to be a 1 to 1 duplication of D&D was never on the table either. I think most posters here are aware of that. I think what most posters are arguing is that there are some changes that are too far from the expectations created for them when saying that you're going to do an IE styled game. 4 I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndiraLightfoot Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 To be honest, we hard-core rpg fans are in sort of "Minority" these days. It's somewhat a "miracle" that PoE get so much love and trust. But it also means it would be unwise to divide the fan base among such an important aspects of design. We still want to see the expansion and the sequel going on. If the project fail to earn most of its supporters, the vision of the project won't be bright. That is one helluva good post! It should really be sent to OE ASAP. *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyFox Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I want this game to do well and be epic I just wonder if it isn't suffering from the classic "trying to fix what was never broken" syndrome. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndiraLightfoot Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 GreyFox: In part, yes, instead of just bringing together the best pieces and be done with it. *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helm Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Weird lash out on C2B. He just pointed out that the devs wouldn't need to worry about us in that regard, described by Shdy314 and Mrakvampire. It doesn't make sense. C2B wasn't disrespectful, IMHO. C2B: Keep having fun, reading this thread. Just shrug it off, if you already haven't. If he didn't mean it in a negative way towards those who want some change, then I sincerely apologize to C2B. Though it certainly sounded like he said that we don't matter. As for Obsidian's reputation, well if this game fails, it will hurt their reputation in my eyes, especially if it turns out that the game failed because of the problems they were warned about and they chose to ignore, early in the development. Same here. To be honest, we hard-core rpg fans are in sort of "Minority" these days. It's somewhat a "miracle" that PoE get so much love and trust. But it also means it would be unwise to divide the fan base among such an important aspects of design. We still want to see the expansion and the sequel going on. If the project fail to earn most of its supporters, the vision of the project won't be bright. I wouldn't say we oldschool RPG fans are a minority, Divinity: Original Sin is a great RPG and is selling like hotcakes. I agree that it is a shame that two or three controversial design decisions have split the community into feuding factions. Hopefully Obsidian listens to the fans like Larian and Inxile did during their betas. I don't think it will happen though, because Sawyer seems to be very bullheaded when it comes to changing core mechanics of his design. Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartantyco Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Let's just agree to have only potato farming XP instead. Problem solved. "You're a fool if you believe I would trust your benevolence. Step aside and you and your lackeys will be unhurt." Baldur's Gate portraits for Pillars of Eternity IXI Icewind Dale portraits for Pillars of Eternity IXI Icewind Dale 2 portraits for Pillars of Eternity [slap Aloth] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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