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Giving players multiple ways to acquire their XP rewards is always better.

 

But this is not an Either/Or. The system should reward you Kill XP and Non Kill XP. This one doesn't though.

 

Baldurs Gate 2 was a far better RPG than Shadow Run Returns.

Oh yes the old "choices are inherently good so more choices is always better" chestnut. As wrong now as ever.

 

Oh good God. Is there some secret contest currently going on in this Forum to see who can miss points more efficiently?

 

Ok, lets take this nice and slow and include all the context.

 

Developer A: Ok Guys. We're working on a game. This game will be an RPG. Our vision is that this game should be about choices, consequences, and ongoing character development. It should reward role playing and using different play styles.

Developer B: But how should we hand out XP for a game like this? We know from experience that if we focus exclusively on rewarding players for killing stuff, then this will result in Killing-Stuff becoming the primary play style, thus ruining the stated vision.

Developer C: Good point, Mr. B! I suggest we reward both violent solutions and non-violent solutions. That way the player feels like he has a real, meaningful, choice as to whether he should kill that pack of lions that's blocking a dungeon entrance, Or throw meat at them as a diversion, Or Charm them with a spell, or sneak around them and find another dungeon entrance.

Developer B: Agreed.

Developer A: It's settled then. We will remove Xp rewards for kills!

 

Developer B: Huh?

Developer C: Er... what?

Edited by Stun
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Giving players multiple ways to acquire their XP rewards is always better.

 

But this is not an Either/Or. The system should reward you Kill XP and Non Kill XP. This one doesn't though.

 

Baldurs Gate 2 was a far better RPG than Shadow Run Returns.

Oh yes the old "choices are inherently good so more choices is always better" chestnut. As wrong now as ever. It is interesting that you should make this argument since that is EXACTLY what the system produces. You get xp no matter what path you take to your goals. Oh but you don't get to see numbers immediately after killing something. I guess it is totally different.

 

You can keep saying that all you want but you know it won't change.

 

Which has literally nothing to do with killxp.

 

 

Yes, it's totally different. Not all wondering monsters are quest related. And apparently you don't realize people having fun earning the killing xp.

It might change if sufficient players/backers aren't satisfied with current solutions, especially there are actually cleverer alternatives.

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I don't see a reason why an RPG wouldn't have XP for combat.

 

Give XP for killing enemies and quests.

Even it out by giving more experience for quests that require no killing or that you can do without killing enemies.

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Giving players multiple ways to acquire their XP rewards is always better.

 

But this is not an Either/Or. The system should reward you Kill XP and Non Kill XP. This one doesn't though.

 

Baldurs Gate 2 was a far better RPG than Shadow Run Returns.

Oh yes the old "choices are inherently good so more choices is always better" chestnut. As wrong now as ever.

 

Oh good God. Is there some secret contest currently going on in this Forum to see who can miss points more efficiently?

 

Ok, lets take this nice and slow and include all the context.

 

Developer A: Ok Guys. We're working on a game. This game will be an RPG. Our vision is that this game should be about choices, consequences, and ongoing character development. It should reward role playing and using different play styles.

Developer B: But how should we hand out XP for a game like this? We know from experience that if we focus exclusively on rewarding players for killing stuff, then this will result in Killing-Stuff becoming the primary play style, thus ruining the stated vision.

Developer C: Good point, Mr. B! I suggest we reward both violent solutions and non-violent solutions. That way the player feels like he has a real, meaningful, choice as to whether he should kill that pack of lions that's blocking a dungeon entrance, Or throw meat at them to get them to ignore him, Or Charm them with a spell, or sneak around and find another dungeon entrance.

Developer B: Agreed.

Developer A: it's settled then! We will remove Xp rewards for kills!

 

Developer B: Huh?

Developer C: Say what?

 

Thats because the conversation went like this.

 

Developer A: Ok Guys. We're working on a game. This game will be an RPG. Our vision is that this game should be about choices, consequences, and ongoing character development. It should reward role playing and using different play styles.

Developer B: But how should we hand out XP for a game like this? We know from experience that if we focus exclusively on rewarding players for killing stuff, then this will result in Killing-Stuff becoming the primary play style, thus ruining the stated vision.

Developer C: Good point, Mr. B! I suggest we reward both violent solutions and non-violent solutions. That way the player feels like he has a real, meaningful, choice as to whether he should kill that pack of lions that's blocking a dungeon entrance, Or throw meat at them to get them to ignore him, Or Charm them with a spell, or sneak around and find another dungeon entrance.

Developer B: Agreed.

Developer A: it's settled then! We will reward xp equally for all 3 paths and xp will not be reward for every individual kill. Especially not on top of the quest xp.

 

Developer B: Great!

Developer C: This will totally confuse and upset Stun! I approve!

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Yes, it's totally different. Not all wondering monsters are quest related. And apparently you don't realize people having fun earning the killing xp.

It might change if sufficient players/backers aren't satisfied with current solutions, especially there are actually cleverer alternatives.

 

What you say? Of course I realize killing and getting numbers releases dopamine surges in your brain. What you fail to realize is just because you enjoy something doesn't make it a good idea. I mean I enjoy stuffing my gob full of pizza and pie but it doesn't make it a great idea.

 

Sure keep telling yourself that.

We can get them to give exploration xp and similar (I think... maybe) but kill xp is not happening.

Edited by Shdy314
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Yes, it's totally different. Not all wondering monsters are quest related. And apparently you don't realize people having fun earning the killing xp.

It might change if sufficient players/backers aren't satisfied with current solutions, especially there are actually cleverer alternatives.

 

What you say? Of course I realize killing and getting numbers releases dopamine surges in your brain. What you fail to realize is just because you enjoy something doesn't make it a good idea. I mean I enjoy stuffing my gob full of pizza and pie but it doesn't make it a great idea.

 

Sure keep telling yourself that.

We can get them to give exploration xp and similar (I think... maybe) but kill xp is not happening.

 

 

Wow, wow, wow, concealed developer in the thread. All must be aware!!!

Maybe it's fake account of that guy.. How was his name? Something with Sawyer.

Edited by Mrakvampire

No to experimentation!

No to fixing that is not broken!

No to changes for the sake of change!

Do not forget basis of Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Planescape Torment. Just put all your effort to story, fine-tuning and quality control.

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Wow, wow, wow, concealed developer in the thread. All must be aware!!!

Maybe it's fake account of that guy.. How was his name? Something with Sawyer.

HA! Come on Hamster you do not have to be a dev to know when it is too late for massive changes to a game. They want this out asap. Look at the feedback they asked for. Big sweeping changes suggested will simply be ignored. Even if there were a supermajority of backers calling blood it is unlikely Obsidian can afford to delay.

Edited by Shdy314
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I mean I enjoy stuffing my gob full of pizza and pie but it doesn't make it a great idea.

???

 

It's a great idea, if you're starving to death. What could possibly be your point here? This game is combat focused. Your arguments would work if they had designed the game to be like Planescape Torment, where combat is trivial. But it isn't. As it stands, They've given us 200 unique ways to kill things but no XP rewards for doing so. That's bad design.

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I mean I enjoy stuffing my gob full of pizza and pie but it doesn't make it a great idea.

???

 

It's a great idea, if you're starving to death. What could possibly be your point here? This game is combat focused. Your arguments would work if they had designed the game to be like Planescape Torment, where combat is trivial. But it isn't. As it stands, They've given us 200 unique ways to kill things but no XP rewards for doing so. That's bad design.

 

Your analogies never fail to crack me up. So you are starved for kill xp eh? Like lacking killxp is literally causing your body to eat its own organs. Fascinating. So what if it is combat focused? There are PnP games that revolve around combat and don't have killxp.

 

You love to toss out "bad design" but you never use it correctly. Because good design is not giving xp just because it is something you can do a lot in the game. Go back to admitting it is a preference you have due to tradition. At least that argument isn't shoddy and is sympathetic.

Edited by Shdy314
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Wow, wow, wow, concealed developer in the thread. All must be aware!!!

Maybe it's fake account of that guy.. How was his name? Something with Sawyer.

HA! Come on Hamster you do not have to be a dev to know when it is too late for massive changes to a game. They want this out asap. Look at the feedback they asked for. Big sweeping changes suggested will simply be ignored. Even if there were a supermajority of backers calling blood it is unlikely Obsidian can afford to delay.

 

 

We'll see, we'll see. After all, Obsidian's reputation is on stake.

No to experimentation!

No to fixing that is not broken!

No to changes for the sake of change!

Do not forget basis of Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Planescape Torment. Just put all your effort to story, fine-tuning and quality control.

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Your analogies never fail to crack me up. So you are starved for kill xp eh?

Among other features of the infinity engine games which were glaringly absent in this beta I just played, yes.

 

Because good design is not giving xp just because it is something you can do a lot in the game.

It's not? Then why do you see it as good design that XP be rewarded for Quest completion? Edited by Stun
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Wow, wow, wow, concealed developer in the thread. All must be aware!!!

Maybe it's fake account of that guy.. How was his name? Something with Sawyer.

HA! Come on Hamster you do not have to be a dev to know when it is too late for massive changes to a game. They want this out asap. Look at the feedback they asked for. Big sweeping changes suggested will simply be ignored. Even if there were a supermajority of backers calling blood it is unlikely Obsidian can afford to delay.

 

 

We'll see, we'll see. After all, Obsidian's reputation is on stake.

 

 

I don't think they have to worry about any of you.

 

Also keep this thread going. Helps me entertain myself.

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Wow, wow, wow, concealed developer in the thread. All must be aware!!!

Maybe it's fake account of that guy.. How was his name? Something with Sawyer.

HA! Come on Hamster you do not have to be a dev to know when it is too late for massive changes to a game. They want this out asap. Look at the feedback they asked for. Big sweeping changes suggested will simply be ignored. Even if there were a supermajority of backers calling blood it is unlikely Obsidian can afford to delay.

 

 

We'll see, we'll see. After all, Obsidian's reputation is on stake.

 

 

I don't think they have to worry about any of you.

 

Also keep this thread going. Helps me entertain myself.

 

 

You should not think at all, I guess.

No to experimentation!

No to fixing that is not broken!

No to changes for the sake of change!

Do not forget basis of Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Planescape Torment. Just put all your effort to story, fine-tuning and quality control.

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Id also like to point out to the players who play pnp, the exp system. There are alot who play pnp and use the exp system for every fight and every skill check but a practice that has also been out for many many years is the practice of the GM/DM saying u leveled when he/she says u leveled up.

the quest exp system is something i see akin to the "u level up when the DM/GM says u leveled up" which if u have played that way isnt a bad thing. Alot of times it keeps the players from "outleveling" the content available so they dont faceroll through the current content....sounds familiar.

 

NOW to the nitty gritty. Where exactly is the no kill exp a bad design? Forget traditions and step back and ask urself, am i able to do the content thats available with the current exp system? If we are then what is the problems then if the system works but we dont like it? Dont feel rewarded for combat? Ok well i feel we are rewarded enough against humanoids because of the cp, magic items, reg items that we can either use or sell...its the outdoor animals that im feeling is the problem correct? Then instead of kill exp, would the chance for finding hidden loot, events, and locations be worth wild and fill that need of "being rewarded for exploring"? As a crafter i feel they are already being rewarded because its the only place so far to gain the materials, but noncrafters be ok with being rewarded with hidden loot, events, and locations instead of kill exp? Someone brought up the spider queen, would u have felt rewarded enough to find good magical items and/or alot of cp in boxies wrapped up in spider webs?

Or woukd u still need that kill exp.

 

Reason why im asking is to find out if its really just the drive to get higher levels and make areas easier or is it actually needing to be rewarded with what u have done which im asking if ingame loot reward be able to replace the kill exp reward.

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redneckdevil: Those are fair points. Unfortunately, I'm too set in my ways! My gourmet slow food CRPG combat machine runs on one fuel only: xp. :)

 

I'm one of those people that loathes crafting of almost every kind (except building epic weapons out of a few extremely rare pieces spread out in four foreign lands). Moreover, I'm not looking forward to that stronghold one bit. I'm not much for money sink hubs of that kind. I'm in it for exploration, story, companions and regular xp and character/party development. Power kicks when playing my party ain't much of an issue. Sometimes, I gimp my pc or my entire party, just because I feel like it. As long as I can give them fun challenges regularly fuelled by xp, I'm quite satisfied.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Alright, here comes a slightly lengthy and personal reflection on this issue, and no, you won't even get a TLDR at the end of it:

 

I've been doing some soul-searching, more specifically, RPG-soul-searching, and after having dug through all the PnP RPG sediments, it can be summarized as follows:

-I've been loving PnP D&D for a long time - decades.

-I've been playing D&D, and DM:ed it as well, in two fashions:

1) Combat-heavy and story-heavy. It's like a very fun and rewarding combat simulator on the one hand, put a slow burner, it's almost like the gourmet slow food of hack-n-slash, and on the other hand, the story, the characters and the deep history of all the cultures and societies visited were just as important. It was indeed immersive and exciting. 

2)Combat-light and super-heavy RPG-ing. You go full-on, in character, and everybody around the table (this was no larping) did their best to verbally roleplay their character. It's very intense and sometimes emotional, even a little draining. The combat is also a matter of roleplaying first and foremost. The occasional dice rolls are nothing but subtle pointers. 

-90% of my PnP RPG sessions have been like #1, and 10% like #2

 

Enter the computer RPGs. My first was a D&D adventure on Intellivision in like 1981 or something, with gaming paddles. It was a dungeon crawler, and hack-n-slash.

Not until Pool of Radiance came out in 1988 - I played it on my beloved Amiga - did I get to experience a computer game that reflected much more my PnP experience of D&D. However, it was not #2, but #1, which got slightly emulated in that SSI game. Even if it never could live up to the story-heavy depth of my #1 version of PnP roleplaying, it was still a decent effort, and more excitingly, the combat simulator aspect of it - all the systems, with skills, experience points, weapon types, die rolls - actually worked quite well. It wasn't all great, though, since those systems were made for PnP, not a computer game and its need for smooth and fun gameplay. I really liked the game.

 

Later, when that Dragonlance trilogy came along, I was hooked. This gourmet slow food D&D combat simulator worked very well on computers, and somehow I managed to sneak in some immersion there as well, perhaps because when I didn't PnP with friends, I used to draw maps and use die rolls, and roll up entire parties, all on my own, which I then got to take on all sorts of weird adventures - this was before I had a personal computer, so the concept of controlling an entire party on my own, while still doing some light roleplaying in my head, as it were, was not a new concept to me. The Dark Sun: Shattered Lands PC game convinced me even more that this formula really worked. I got hours and days and weeks entertainment from them! :)

 

So, much later, when Baldur's Gate came out, I was ripe for the taking - and I was sold. To me, it was a masterpiece. So much love and PnP depth had been poured into it by the devs. I could really tell that. Also, it was pretty much an open world. I still remember the joy like it was yesterday. BG1 and BG2 also meant something else for me: I begun to replay CRPGs heavily - rolling up several characters and entire parties and enjoying them over and over, all because the brilliant and varied gameplay offered by the gourmet slowfood D&D combat simulator that the computers did really well. I went on, had loads of fun with NWN1, which also had persistent worlds, where I actually did roleplay on with other people for years (that's another story). Planescape: Torment also surprised me RP-wise. It showed me that you can make a game first and foremost story-heavy, and still have it work as a great game. In fact, and this is important, it would have worked fine with no combat, and no xp. I would have played it regardless - it was that good, the same goes for NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer. I really hope that T:ToN will deliver that kind of quality too in a year or three. ;)

 

However, those story-heavy-only games are in the clear minority. They are exceptions to the rule, you can say. Most CRPG fun I 've had, well, that equals gourmet slow food D&D combat simulators with a great story, deep cultural settings, and fun and reactive player companions in the party (or not, I've actually played much more with no such companions in my party. Normally, the entire party has been created by me.

 

Forward to PoE, promised to be a "spiritual successor" of the IE-games, and the xp system and its present state (basically, quest xp only). Let's just say that it doesn't sit well with me.

Why?

I expect PoE to be story-heavy, with a rich background, lots of variety, epxloring, freedom, having cool companions and quests.

Oh, it is! Check!!

I expect Poe to be a gourmet slow food combat simulator that I can have fun with in months and years to come, replaying it until it breaks from wear and tear.

Nope! I have to take specific quest routes in order to even earn a single xp, and all the sense of the constant trickle of rewarding poured into the combat machine I love to drag around is simply not there. It has vanished. Poof! 

Yes! I admit. I am addicted to xp. I am addicted to killing sprees, and I reserve the right, from my years of experience of RPGs, PnP and CRPGs, to call this deep roleplaying.

:thumbsup:

 

Somebody email this to Josh please (and Feargus too, just to be sure).

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Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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Giving players multiple ways to acquire their XP rewards is always better.

 

But this is not an Either/Or. The system should reward you Kill XP and Non Kill XP. This one doesn't though.

 

Baldurs Gate 2 was a far better RPG than Shadow Run Returns.

Oh yes the old "choices are inherently good so more choices is always better" chestnut. As wrong now as ever.

 

Oh good God. Is there some secret contest currently going on in this Forum to see who can miss points more efficiently?

 

Ok, lets take this nice and slow and include all the context.

 

Developer A: Ok Guys. We're working on a game. This game will be an RPG. Our vision is that this game should be about choices, consequences, and ongoing character development. It should reward role playing and using different play styles.

Developer B: But how should we hand out XP for a game like this? We know from experience that if we focus exclusively on rewarding players for killing stuff, then this will result in Killing-Stuff becoming the primary play style, thus ruining the stated vision.

Developer C: Good point, Mr. B! I suggest we reward both violent solutions and non-violent solutions. That way the player feels like he has a real, meaningful, choice as to whether he should kill that pack of lions that's blocking a dungeon entrance, Or throw meat at them as a diversion, Or Charm them with a spell, or sneak around them and find another dungeon entrance.

Developer B: Agreed.

Developer A: It's settled then. We will remove Xp rewards for kills!

 

Developer B: Huh?

Developer C: Er... what?

 

LOL

 

I wonder who Developer A is... hmmmmm....... xD

Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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This is kind of funny actually.

 

My head says combat XP (and systemic XP in general) is bad design and a bad idea.

 

But my heart misses it.

 

Is it a full moon out?

*Screams and pitch forks*

"Oh no! Yet another one is about to transform!!"

*Howls in the distance, from the dark side of the hill.*

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Wow, wow, wow, concealed developer in the thread. All must be aware!!!

Maybe it's fake account of that guy.. How was his name? Something with Sawyer.

HA! Come on Hamster you do not have to be a dev to know when it is too late for massive changes to a game. They want this out asap. Look at the feedback they asked for. Big sweeping changes suggested will simply be ignored. Even if there were a supermajority of backers calling blood it is unlikely Obsidian can afford to delay.

 

 

We'll see, we'll see. After all, Obsidian's reputation is on stake.

 

 

I don't think they have to worry about any of you.

 

Also keep this thread going. Helps me entertain myself.

 

I am glad you are not the Dev.

Those comments are not so called a respect to all those help funding the project.

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This is kind of funny actually.

 

My head says combat XP (and systemic XP in general) is bad design and a bad idea.

 

But my heart misses it.

There's nothing "funny" about that. The heart responds to stuff that makes the person feel good. It's called human nature.

 

A page or so ago someone brought up how eating Pizza and Pie may be enjoyable but it's still "not a good idea". Yeah, here's my response: Screw that. Opting for a plate of celery sticks and carrots instead, because they constitute "a good idea".... does not sound appealing or satisfying to me. And games are supposed to be a guilty pleasure indulgence...not...whatever that person is suggesting.

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Stun: That's the gist of it, I reckon. A good CRPG shouldn't be good for you. It should be addictive as hell, "a guilty pleasure", like you said.

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Wow, wow, wow, concealed developer in the thread. All must be aware!!!

 

Maybe it's fake account of that guy.. How was his name? Something with Sawyer.

 

HA! Come on Hamster you do not have to be a dev to know when it is too late for massive changes to a game. They want this out asap. Look at the feedback they asked for. Big sweeping changes suggested will simply be ignored. Even if there were a supermajority of backers calling blood it is unlikely Obsidian can afford to delay.

 

We'll see, we'll see. After all, Obsidian's reputation is on stake.

 

I don't think they have to worry about any of you.

 

Also keep this thread going. Helps me entertain myself.

I am glad you are not the Dev.

Those comments are not so called a respect to all those help funding the project.

k'

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