Combat feels: Activeness, Speed and Pace.

[Sensuki]

Personally I don't think the differences between DT values of the current armors/recovery time penalties are really that distinguishable, especially considering you need to rest after a few encounter anyway. The difference between 8 DT and 12 DT hasn't really had enough time to make much of a difference.

 

I'm not saying that an attribute that controls recovery time is the only solution, but it is one of them, and character A with 18 Dex that gives -X% recovery time and Character B with 18 Dex and Plate armor are separated by the same amount that they would be currently.

 

It would add another compelling option for all characters.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Sensuki

[Answermancer]

Yeah I thought that recovery time and increased action speed would be quite noticeable and valuable but so far in practice I haven't seen that be the case, so I think having an attribute affect recovery time/action speed might be fine.

 

And I do like the idea of support a very "speedy" sort of character, in fact the threads I've been reading make my current preferrences something like:

• Make Dex give improved recovery time/action speed
• Make Per govern Accuracy
• Make Res give a chance at avoidance (convert glances to misses and hits to glances on the low end)

I like this setup because it opens up two additional archetypal "builds" that people can invest in, the speedy scrapper and the evasion tank.

[Valorian]

The difference between 8 DT and 12 DT hasn't really had enough time to make much of a difference.

 

 

The difference between 8 DT and 12 DT against an attack that on average does, say, 15 - 25 damage on a Hit is substantial. The 12 DT would easily shrug off grazes, the 8 DT armor would not.

 

Sliding recovery time via attribute not only affects mechanics (and we all know how valuable attack/action speed is), but also the visual presentation of combat and many feel that actions in combat are already too fast.

[Answermancer]

Sliding recovery time via attribute not only affects mechanics (and we all know how valuable attack/action speed is), but also the visual presentation of combat and many feel that actions in combat are already too fast.

 

 

It might just be me but personally I feel like movement speed and such is too high (too hard to engage in a sane way since as soon as you're noticed everyone is on top of you), but action speed is about right.

[Valorian]

 

Sliding recovery time via attribute not only affects mechanics (and we all know how valuable attack/action speed is), but also the visual presentation of combat and many feel that actions in combat are already too fast.

 

 

It might just be me but personally I feel like movement speed and such is too high (too hard to engage in a sane way since as soon as you're noticed everyone is on top of you), but action speed is about right.

 

 

Sure, but movement speed has nothing to do with recovery time.

If they end up reducing movement speed, then of course they should reduce it for everyone (I don't want a DA2 or DA:I situation where enemies move and attack at a snail's pace, but the PC & party are imbued with the speed of light).

[Sensuki]

 

The difference between 8 DT and 12 DT hasn't really had enough time to make much of a difference.

 

The difference between 8 DT and 12 DT against an attack that on average does, say, 15 - 25 damage on a Hit is substantial. The 12 DT would easily shrug off grazes, the 8 DT armor would not.

 

Sliding recovery time via attribute not only affects mechanics (and we all know how valuable attack/action speed is), but also the visual presentation of combat and many feel that actions in combat are already too fast.

 

No it would just affect the recovery timer.

 

The difference between 8 and 12 DT is not mattering much at the current situation with the Stamina:Health damage conversion rate, equip all your characters in 12 DT plate, how many encounters can you survive? Probably exactly the same amount as wearing whatever other armors.

That's besides the point though because as I said, characters would have the opportunity to invest in the attribute, and characters with the same score but different armors would have exactly the same difference as they do now.

 

To me, if creating six ~equally compelling attribute choices is a primary design goal - recovery time, deflection and hostile effect duration reduction are the three best things I can think of to choose from.

[PrimeJunta]

Okay, the combat feelz. Been playing a little more. Got through the beetles with nary a scratch (on Normal).

 

Unfortunately it's really hard to say much about it at this point. There are those three critical issues many others have pointed out, and a fourth that's almost as serious. Before they're addressed, it is going to be clusterhug. 

 

I'm confident though that once they are addressed, it'll be fine, and they're not all that hard to address. Namely:

 

1. Y U NO DO???? Often characters just appear to ignore orders and stand around being clobbered. I was following the combat log, and Dyrtipix was actually making no attacks and doing no damage at all. There was "Dyrtipix engages <critter> in melee," and beyond that, nothing. (Not always Dyrtipix, either, but often.) Even if I issued a specific order. 

 

2. Autoattack bug. They know about this, but it is a bit of a blocker. Doesn't appear to affect ranged weapons guys as much. Most combats I won were actually won by BB Wizard auto-plinking with his BB gun, since my frontliners refused to do anything but stand there.

 

3. Dat pathfinding. May be related to 1. Perhaps they didn't do anything because they didn't realize they were standing right next to the critter to which they were supposed to do it, and got confused, puir things.

 

4. Speed. Yah, it is too fast. Playing in slow-mo is workable, but that's a bit too slow. Needs to be slowed down a bit.

 

A secondary highly annoying thing is the disappearing weapon bug. Dyrtipix was not all that effective in many of the fights because she was using her bare fists. Not great.

 

Gonna try a ranger next, see if ranged attacks work better. But melee needs those critical bugs fixed before I can say much more about it.

[Valorian]

 

 

The difference between 8 DT and 12 DT hasn't really had enough time to make much of a difference.

 

The difference between 8 DT and 12 DT against an attack that on average does, say, 15 - 25 damage on a Hit is substantial. The 12 DT would easily shrug off grazes, the 8 DT armor would not.

 

Sliding recovery time via attribute not only affects mechanics (and we all know how valuable attack/action speed is), but also the visual presentation of combat and many feel that actions in combat are already too fast.

 

No it would just affect the recovery timer.

 

The difference between 8 and 12 DT is not mattering much at the current situation with the Stamina:Health damage conversion rate, equip all your characters in 12 DT plate, how many encounters can you survive? Probably exactly the same amount as wearing whatever other armors.

That's besides the point though because as I said, characters would have the opportunity to invest in the attribute, and characters with the same score but different armors would have exactly the same difference as they do now.

 

To me, if creating six ~equally compelling attribute choices is a primary design goal - recovery time, deflection and hostile effect duration reduction are the three best things I can think of to choose from.

 

 

You do realize that reducing recovery time means you attack/do actions more often... therefore, combat becomes faster.

 

I've just explained that there's a huge difference between 8 and 12 DT. A graze is 50% damage and occurs very often. 25/2 = 12.5  damage, 24/2 = 12 damage etc. Calculate how much goes through.

 

 

A single attribute affecting hostile effect duration would be redundant. Fort/will/ref (affected by all attributes) already do that.

[IndiraLightfoot]

PrimeJunta: Good feedback! And I must add that I didn't use any ranged weapons except for the BB wizard and his spells, a handful of BB priest spells, and one test with an arbalest. Still, I notice that my wizard has done most damage in my party, so ranged weapons seem to be the way to go atm.

[Answermancer]

 

To me, if creating six ~equally compelling attribute choices is a primary design goal - recovery time, deflection and hostile effect duration reduction are the three best things I can think of to choose from.

 

 

Wait how are you spreading those out then? Don't you lose a stat assigned for Accuracy in the process? Or are you just saying choose 2 of those 3 to assign to Per and Res?

 

What do you think of the ones I favored here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66950-combat-feels-activeness-speed-and-pace/page-2?do=findComment&comment=1483866? Evasion for Res not interesting enough? Too weak? Too powerful?

 

As I said in another thread I feel like Deflection is not interesting enough to base a build around or universal enough (just one of 4 defenses), for a defensive stat Con works because it affects all damage you take, and so would down-converting glances and hits.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2014 by Answermancer

[Sensuki]

I already posted a suggestion in the thread about attributes.

 

A single attribute affecting hostile effect duration would be redundant. Fort/will/ref (affected by all attributes) already do that.

Fair point, although not with granularity.

 

As I said in another thread I feel like Deflection is not interesting enough to base a build around or universal enough (just one of 4 defenses), for a defensive stat Con works because it affects all damage you take, and so would down-converting glances and hits.

Also a fair point, although Deflection is the most attacked defense.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Sensuki

[GreyFox]

Just from watching the demos and streams you can tell the characters do move too fast and something about the pace was off.

 

Before the beta came out there was a thread about the health ratios and the possibility of adding real healing...one of these seems like it needs to happen because from watching people Sensuki is correct the adventure day is way too short.

 

I imagine it's extra frustrating to have long recovery times + the bug where the character is idling. So you may not be able to tell if he's just waiting to attack again or is actually doing nothing(depending on the settings you use).

[krellen]

Coming into this having not followed the development, not read these forums, not having contributed anything (beyond a large stack of money) so far, the combat in this game sucks.  It's just awful.

 

I was murdered by two stone beetles on Easy, and I can't really figure out what I was supposed to be doing differently.  First off, the beetles refused to attack my fighter, despite him standing there whacking things with his axe (once in a while, I guess?)  The lack of any ability to heal, or to figure out how to make my people last any longer, was extremely frustrating (what sort of game has priests who can't heal?)  I had the last beetle down to low health, so I tried to activate the Rogue's "finish them off" ability, but it didn't seem to trigger at all?

 

I assume the final product will have a tutorial, but I can't imagine any level of information having made this any better.  The combat just feels terrible.  If we need to micromanage people, just make the game engine turn-based in the first place.  Real-time with pause is an awful system, and the only way it's ever passable is with heavy levels of automation and making Easy ACTUALLY easy.

[Yonjuro]

Seems to be a lot of people online again, anyone got anything to add?

 

 Currently, the characters seem a bit insubstantial in combat - it's hard to know who is doing what or who killed who I think some changes to combat sounds could help a lot. 

 

 E.g., playing as a ranger, arrows seem to fly off to who knows where due to the 'whistling arrow' sound. In contrast, the BG games had a satisfying 'loose' followed by a an even more satisfying 'thunk' when you hit. 

 

(At this point I should also mention that music, ambient sounds etc. are fantastic.)

 

I think this is a 'big deal.' I'm going to mess around a bit more and see if I still think so. Does anybody else notice this? Am I imagining things?

[morhilane]

The issues with melee are hugely magnified by

 

* Auto attack bug (if you're not paying 100% attention, characters will do nothing)

* Pathfinding issues (you really have to control your melee characters every step of the way)

* Engagement system (movement in close range is costly)

* Movement speed (makes it crazy)

 

I think the auto attack bug has a huge effect on the *headache* of combat, and we really need to wait until it is fixed before complaining about complexity, because it literally triples the amount of actions you need to make (or more even).

 

It's not just auto attacks that don't work either, you sometimes have to issue commands twice (such as casting spells etc).

 

Auto-attack is bugged? I just learned something. It doesn't look animated for me, but stuff still dies even if I don't tell my characters to kill them. I also didn't find the combat more complex than in the BG games or Icewind Dale. It's different, because the spells and abilities are different, if not all new.

 

There is a few things that annoy me:

1. Creature movement speed. It's a bit too fast or maybe it seems too fast because things do not react to being hit. You have to check the red pips and red numbers to know what is going on and even then it seems to be "differed" in term of information.

 

2.The disconnect between "request" and "action". I sometimes have no idea if one of my character is doing what I told them to do. Did it miss? Did my command go through? Is that a long spell or he is really doing nothing? For example, for a while I wondered if the Holy Radiance required a specific condition to be cast despite the button not being greyed because it never worked for me until my last fight last night.

 

3. Pathfinding is mostly annoying to when everything glue together and you can't tell who is who or select enemies easily.

[PrimeJunta]

Okay, played around with some ranged weapons. Definitely less unmanageable than melee. Targeting and attack mostly work, auto-attack mostly works. Stripped my archers naked for moar speed, and they were dishing out some pretty nice damage. Main problem is the too-aggressive auto-attack that aggros monsters unintentionally. Also not sure about ranged weapon variety versus various defenses. Needs more study.

 

From the POV of sheer fun, this is way better: tank up front doing melee, paired with animal companion if your main toon is a ranger, with everybody else hanging back with ranged weapons. Meat shields hold the line while archers deal the damage from a safe distance, supplemented by BB Wizard throwing fireballs or whatever. Works reliably, although the front line does take a bit of punishment.

 

I'm fairly confident that a more melee-oriented party will work just as well once they sort out the "Who, me?" bugs and get auto-attack... and just plain ol' attack... working like they should.

[morhilane]

Update, after trying all the classes against the groups of "thugs" by the bridge.

 

It seems like the real problem is the lack of feedback and responsiveness, not so much that combat is too fast. Basically, by not seeing the auto-attacks or other actions, it gives the impression that things are going too fast because you are taking lots of damage or dealing a lots of damage without seeing how it is happening. After my little trial today, combat isn't necessarilly too fast, it just lack visual feedbacks at the right time so I can make a guess of how things are going.

[bob54386]

One of the UI things that IE did was change the character selection circles based on what the character was doing.  That would be an incredibly useful level of feedback here that would be one approach to solving a lot of complaints

 

1. Party member's selection circle is only a circle if they're standing there idle
2. Mouse over a party member's portrait and their circle starts glowing on the screen
3. Mouse over a party member's portrait or selection circle and their target's circle will also start to glow
4. A 'clover' instead of a circle implied actions.  Character is walking to this point, character is casting a spell at this character, character is attacking this target.
5. Not in IE, but it would be nice to get some indicator circle feedback over what targets an AOE is actually going to hit.

This helps make it more obvious when a character has successfully been told to do what was intended.

[SubZoey]

 

So far here are some basic points about combat:

The combat is more active than the Infinity Engine games due to the amount of ability use required. This was one of Josh Sawyer's aims for combat and I believe that the goal has been achieved.

 

 

The speed of actions in combat is actually way slower than I am used to, because I played the IE games on 40 FPS. Characters wearing heavier armors have a really long recovery time. Currently I don't think the values are balanced properly, and I think an attribute that reduces recovery time would be very fitting here. My unarmored / unarmed Monk was faring a lot better than my Fighter was, due to being able to hit more often and get rid of his wounds.

 

I think for some people combat feels "too fast" because you are required to micro manage your characters a lot more. The actions the characters take are actually slower than the IE games (barring the spell casters), but pretty much every character has active abilities that you kinda need to use every encounter, so you are doing more, even though the pace is slower.

 

 

 

 

 

It seems like the combat is going speed is going to need to find a nice balance between older IE games and games like Dragon Age: Origins since talents are being presented in this game. I personally like the slower "weighty-er" combat of DA:O. I still paused to micromanage, but didn't have to pause so much that I could still use some talents in real time. I understand if I am to be shunned for bringing up DA. If it helps at all I absolutely despised the consolized DA2. (Edited for herp derp)

Edited August 20, 2014 by SubZoey

[tinderbox]

I assume the final product will have a tutorial, but I can't imagine any level of information having made this any better.  The combat just feels terrible.  If we need to micromanage people, just make the game engine turn-based in the first place.  Real-time with pause is an awful system, and the only way it's ever passable is with heavy levels of automation and making Easy ACTUALLY easy.

 

Okay I don't get this because real-time combat with pausing is fundamentally part of IE games and that level of tactical involvement and decision-making in who to target or what spell to cast is what I always liked about BG, BG2 and IWD. I've never run any auto-scripts ever in IE games. I'm hoping there's a way to turn scripted responses off for combat (though I haven't looked very hard through the interface so far). 

 

But maybe I'm misunderstanding and you mean something else.

 

It feels fast and I'm pausing often (normal difficulty), but not that any more than I would for BG2, and I understand how BG2 works a lot better. I think it's a challenge, but not an impossible one.

[Waywocket]

One of the UI things that IE did was change the character selection circles based on what the character was doing.  That would be an incredibly useful level of feedback here that would be one approach to solving a lot of complaints

 

1. Party member's selection circle is only a circle if they're standing there idle
2. Mouse over a party member's portrait and their circle starts glowing on the screen
3. Mouse over a party member's portrait or selection circle and their target's circle will also start to glow
4. A 'clover' instead of a circle implied actions.  Character is walking to this point, character is casting a spell at this character, character is attacking this target.
5. Not in IE, but it would be nice to get some indicator circle feedback over what targets an AOE is actually going to hit.

This helps make it more obvious when a character has successfully been told to do what was intended.

I regret that I have only one like to give for this post.

[WebShaman]

Hmmm...my opinion of the Combat System seems to be at odds with most here.

 

I use the S and D keys to slow down and speed up things (also in combat), so it all seems a bit different to me in terms of speed (though @Sensuki is correct about the recovery thing IMHO).

 

I started the game on Easy (I think this is a no-brainer, one is getting used to a new game, so start on the easiest settings until one gets familiar with things, right?).

 

I have not died once in combat.  I had heard that the bugs were bad, but I didn't find that to be so.  I found the poison that they dealt to be bad (had to go rest to get rid of the effects), but actual combat was very easy IMHO.

 

I use the DA:O tactic of meatshields with ranged - and a scout up front.

 

Scout (here the D key really comes into use!), hit enemy, retreat.  Fire up the Wiz with magic.  Let loose with the ranged.  Hit the S key.  Now position the meatshields so that they will intercept the incoming enemy at the point.  Activate some Priest status spell (I assume it is like Bless, Chant, whatever).  By now the enemies (on S) will be somewhere within melee range.  Click and combat with the meatshields, and fire up the Wiz with MM (Magic Missle).  Send in the Priest, wailing away! 

 

Now hit the D key (or just tap the S key, for normal speed).

 

Kills stuff quickly, and with very little damage to my Meatshields. 

 

As meatshields, I use my Dwarf and my Bear (animal companion from my Godlike Ranger).  The Ranger is an Archer, so stands back.

 

Everyone in my party has Heavy or Medium armor - and except for my Ranger, use firearms as ranged weapons.

 

Using this relatively easy tactic, I have reduced combat to a fun endeavor that is not deadly - even some of the really tough encounters went down quickly enough (Bear, Magic, Firearms seems to be the ticket, combined with heavy armor to absorb damage).  I normally use the Dwarf's ability to defend to reduce even more damage - the Bear seems to just shrug damage off.

 

The only time I tend to have problems is when the enemy overruns my meatshields, to get at the "softer" party members.  Then I hit S, do some adjusting, and it is back to the original tactic.

 

Since I use S and D so often in combat, it really has introduced me to a great way to do the combat in PoE.  I really wish DA:O had this (or the upcoming Inquisitor)!  IMHO, being able to affect combat speed (without pausing) is a godsend!  It allows me time to "rest" when I feel overburdened without having to stop things (which really doesn't help, because as soon as you unpause, you are back in confusion land again!)   But in PoE, I can S-L-O-W things down, get a breather, actually SEE what is going on, and react accordingly.

 

As such, the recovery times just do not come into factoring for me. 

[Forlorn Hope]

Okay, played around with some ranged weapons. Definitely less unmanageable than melee. Targeting and attack mostly work, auto-attack mostly works. Stripped my archers naked for moar speed, and they were dishing out some pretty nice damage. Main problem is the too-aggressive auto-attack that aggros monsters unintentionally. Also not sure about ranged weapon variety versus various defenses. Needs more study.

 

From the POV of sheer fun, this is way better: tank up front doing melee, paired with animal companion if your main toon is a ranger, with everybody else hanging back with ranged weapons. Meat shields hold the line while archers deal the damage from a safe distance, supplemented by BB Wizard throwing fireballs or whatever. Works reliably, although the front line does take a bit of punishment.

 

I'm fairly confident that a more melee-oriented party will work just as well once they sort out the "Who, me?" bugs and get auto-attack... and just plain ol' attack... working like they should.

 

This is basically how I played. I had my paladin with his auras blasting away with an arbalest along with four other characters using ranged weapons, for example guns and crossbows, while the bb fighter held the mobs in place. The mage and cleric used offensive spells at times. This way, for example the ogre was downed in a blink of an eye. Using these tactics I never had to resort to rest-spamming etc. Easy as goblin pie.

[Mrakvampire]

My 2 cents. 

Adding a lot of abilities to non-caster classes made combat not fun, but very tiring micromanagement affair. 

[Wombat]

I use the S and D keys to slow down and speed up things (also in combat), so it all seems a bit different to me in terms of speed (though @Sensuki is correct about the recovery thing IMHO).

Yeah, these became the hot keys which I press very often.  According to Kaz, they "will be adding more obvious ways of toggling it in future updates."

 

To the devs:

As for actual implementation, how about something similar to old audio/visual buttons since they seem to be recognized by "correctly recognised by 75% of a sample of European consumers", according to wiki (BTW, why only European?) although it appears less familiar to younger generations.

 

Could you let the players assign keys to intended groups?  For example, it would be nice if I could assign different hot keys to a ranged characters and melee characters, respectively.  Just my two cents.