Police arrest, attack reporters; order reporters NOT to cover protest. IN UNITED STATES.

[Hurlshort]

Brown is a formerly living example of why so many of us have concealed carry permits. I'll not mourn his passing and, frankly, another 100K of his ilk planted in the ground would be a fine, fine start.

 

As for the LibProg professional agitators of the press and the racial grievance industry, Rush speaks for me.

 

And the ugliest post of the year award goes to...

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

So the police are now saying the reason the shooting victim was stopped was because he had just committed a robbery in a convenience store. Looks like once again everyone has jumped to conclusions and we've been fed a narrative to advance an agenda.

.... you do know this situation extends far beyond the initial incident, right? You do know that Brown was shot up to ten times, right, after he put his hands up? 

 

I mean, you're just being a troll, right?

 

Or else do you actually think it's okay to execute someone who is peacefully surrendering just because they committed a prior crime?

 

At this point I don't know any of that for a fact. If it was, it would be case closed.

 

 

I know it's bad to speak ill of the dead and all, but I'd say Oscar Grant III was a much better martyr for police brutality.  That guy was executed on camera with his hands behind his back.

In that case I believe the officer. He took his taser out, put it back, then took the gun out and shot the victim. Why would he do that in public unless his mind flipped the gun with the taser, I know that kind of thing happens, especially under pressure.

[Valmy]

So the police are now saying the reason the shooting victim was stopped was because he had just committed a robbery in a convenience store. Looks like once again everyone has jumped to conclusions and we've been fed a narrative to advance an agenda.

 

Huh.  Weird the story I heard was that he shoplifted and was shot by the cops.  Now maybe your agenda is that all unarmed shoplifters should be murdered without trial but not mine.

[Bester]

So yeah, the police don't strut around in cammo on a regular basis.  Babayaga and Bester sound ridiculous.

 

Can we name any country where things are going to go well when you challenge law enforcement?  If you try and force a German cop back into his car, is it going to go smoothly?     

 

There's a difference in general treatment and then there's a difference in laws that allow US cops to literally search your anal cavity for drugs on "suspicion" (ie his eye was twitching). Also, there are laws that allow US cops to shoot people on suspicion that the person might be carrying a weapon or be otherwise dangerous, which they seem to use excessively. (remember the video where the guy stumbled on his seat belt when exiting the car and the cops decided this was an aggression and emptied their guns into him?) Also they can taze anyone they want (children, pregnant women, etc), and my wife doesn't speak English as fluently as I do, she might get tazed because she didn't get what the cop was ordering her.

 

Here's a video demonstrating the difference between European police and US cops.

 

 

Basically, I want none of that treatment and I don't want to risk my or my wife's life out of touristic curiosity. I realize the chances aren't HIGH, but even low chances (like 3-5%) are unacceptable for me. I don't gamble with my well-being. Countries with high crime rate against tourists and police brutality are off my "to visit" list.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Bester

[Gfted1]

[Bester]

It might sound funny to you because you've lived there your whole life. But it's the same thing with ghettos, for instance. Some people just avoid ghettos because they consider them more dangerous than the places they've grown accustomed to. But if you ask a ghetto dweller, he'll just laugh into your face because he's lived there all his life, for example.

 

Same principle.

[Bryy]

Can a mod change the title to reflect this being about Ferguson in general?

 

 

 

At this point I don't know any of that for a fact. If it was, it would be case closed.

It is a fact that the officer didn't know about the robbery. I'd cite Tweets, but I know you've pretty much made up your mind.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Bryy

[Leferd]

I think the USA can go on and make do just fine without the Bester family's tourism $$.

[Stun]

Basically, I want none of that treatment and I don't want to risk my or my wife's life out of touristic curiosity. I realize the chances aren't HIGH, but even low chances (like 3-5%) are unacceptable for me. I don't gamble with my well-being. Countries with high crime rate against tourists and police brutality are off my "to visit" list.

LOL

 

3-5% is an enormously high estimate. It's more like .00001%. You have a better chance of coming to Las Vegas as a tourist, and leaving with a $25,000 slot machine win, than even encountering a cop with his weapon drawn. Lets not lose sight of the fact that these high profile incidents, like the one in Ferguson tend to occur in the ghetto parts of society, where gang action is very much the context. If you're a tourist, and you find yourself in friggin Ferguson, you'll have far worse things to worry about than the police.

 

 

But off topic.... It's interesting....Cops. When you're a teenager, and you see a cop, you think of a big older guy. the LAW. But when you're 42 years old, you look around and most of the cops you see are like kids! I got pulled a while back for speeding and I swear to god the guy that pulled me over looked like some highschool kid.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Stun

[Bester]

Plus, the US law system in general... I don't want to talk a lot about it, but here's the major difference. In civilized countries, the investigator first looks for solid, irrefutable proofs, questions twice or thee times all witnesses, cross-examines their statements, talks to the suspect, checks out his story and his version of events, then confronts him again, then checks his new version, documents all these things. THEN, when it's 100% solid, it goes to court.

 

In the US, the investigation per say happens during court. For me, it's just disconcerting.

Roughly, it means they just grab some guy and they've got their suspect. Quite obvious, why this is wrong:

 

- oftentimes people who didn't do anything fall under suspicion and have to be judged... they have to get a lawyer, they have to be in actual prison if they can't pay bail, their hair goes gray especially if they didn't do anything. 

If there was proper investigation like in civilized countries, it wouldn't have to happen.

 

- the price of lawyers? Wages in Europe are very different from America's, so I just wouldn't be able to find myself a good lawyer and this may result in me going to prison for nothing if I'm charged with anything.

 

- when the proper investigation is happening DURING COURT, it means some refuting evidence just won't be found because of court time frames

What the hell?

 

- the prosecutor isn't interested in fairness of trial, he's interested in using all legal techniques (which aren't always fair to the suspect) to make the guy serve time. Sometimes, the prosecutor manages to dismiss refuting evidence on a technicality and make the guy serve time. The chase for stats has no place in a civilized court of law.

The reverse, where the guy can go free on a technicality has no place in a court system EITHER.

 

- in situations when the guy didn't do it, but there is some weak evidence against him and he's got no alibi, it is sometimes better for the poor guy to settle and serve less time than if he's found guilty. The whole "settle and serve less" forces a lot of people to break down psychologically and admit to things they didn't do.

 

- not to mention the costs of all the unnecessary court hearings because there was no proper investigation

 

 

And if all that is not enough, the crime rate in the US is 5 times European's.

The racism and the reverse racism in some states is very pronounced if my understanding is correct, and I could very well find myself victim of BOTH. (being white, but not being a white american)

 

I just don't want to go there.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Bester

[Leferd]

I'm not white but I've been harassed/stopped by law enforcement far more frequently outside the US than inside. This includes Western Europe and Asia.

[Bester]

Yeah, yeah, you're all very patriotic in there, I get it. Adore your country and be unable to criticize it or admit its shortcomings, therefore be unable to make it better. Good job, american fanatical patriotism.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Bester

[Hurlshort]

Yeah, yeah, you're all very patriotic in there, I get it. Adore your country and be unable to criticize it or admit its shortcomings, therefore be unable to make it better. Good job, american fanatical patriotism.

 

Most of us look critically at the US regularly here, but your gross generalizations are incredibly ignorant, so you'll have a hard time finding people who agree.  Maybe Oby will show up and fight the good fight with you.

[Leferd]

Lol.

 

Then you don't know me too well or read much of what I've written on these forums. I've had plenty of criticism of the government. Difference is I only do it when it is warranted and not out of an idealogical agenda.Yes, I happen to like my country and am liberal.

 

I've also had the privilege of living abroad for quite a few years and collecting stamps on my passport so I feel I am a pretty good judge of knowing how other people live and appreciating America's advantages and deficiencies.

[Agiel]

Admittng to flaws and sins of one's country (of which every American poster on this topic has) and loving it all the same is what seperates the nationalists from the true patriots.

[Bester]

 

Yeah, yeah, you're all very patriotic in there, I get it. Adore your country and be unable to criticize it or admit its shortcomings, therefore be unable to make it better. Good job, american fanatical patriotism.

 

Most of us look critically at the US regularly here, but your gross generalizations are incredibly ignorant, so you'll have a hard time finding people who agree.  Maybe Oby will show up and fight the good fight with you.

 

 

I wouldn't look for Americans to agree with me that their cops are abusive and their court system is flawed, because I don't expect them to. I'm merely offering my perspective, to which Americans are very hostile, and I think it's because of their so called patriotism getting in the way of rational thinking.

 

Their cops are much more trigger happy when compared to Europe's cops and they kill people more often without reason than in Europe? They are and they do.

Their laws allow them to search anal cavities and humiliate people? They do.

Their crime rates are 5 times European's? They are.

Their court system is flawed? All court systems are flawed, but America's system is particularly flawed indeed.

 

Any arguments that this isn't the case would've already been posted if they existed, but you can't really make arguments against facts.

And even though these are facts, I still don't expect Americans to concede, because I've noticed they can't take criticism from foreigners.

 

Now, that Oby comparison was... exotic! The boy that cried Oby... Do you really really wanna wake Oby in me, DO YOU WANNA??? WELL THAT'S FINE WITH ME, LET'S DO IT!!

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/62420848/US.jpg

 

Edited August 16, 2014 by Bester

[Hurlshort]

Just a quick blurb on crime in the US via http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Total-crimes:

 

 

 

At first glance, the United States appears to stand out in this statistic, having four times as many crimes as Germany which is next on the list. However this is misleading as the population of the United States is about four times as high as the population of Germany. As a country with a high population is likely to have more crime (there are more people to commit crimes), this statistic should be viewed per capita. In per capita ranking, the United States falls to number 8, between the United Kingdom (No. 6)and Germany(No. 12).

Willingness to report crime and confidence in the police and legal system influence the rate of reported crime. Over half of U.S citizens feel that they canreport crime to the police, and 73% have confidence in the police and the legal system. In addition to this, the United States has the highest ranking for belief in police efficiency with 89% of respondents stating that the police do a good job in controlling crime in their area.

[Stun]

Are you taking Bester's posts seriously? We have something called due process here in the United States. But I know of at least 1 European country that does not even bother with such meaningless concepts.

 

Cops in Hungary have the power to dole out on the spot fines. If they think you are committing a crime, then they have a right to demand that you pay them immediately. Failure to do so means they can haul you off to prison. Moreover, there's no Oversight for this "system". A "good" cop in Hungary can quickly become wealthy by going on a "law enforcement" spree and just pocketing every fine he collects from his victims.

 

Yeah, lets have a discussion about Cops in Europe. lol

Edited August 16, 2014 by Stun

[Gromnir]

am not gonna speak to bester's imaginary statistics for cop corruption, but from a law pov, the US Constitution hamstrings its cops compared to western european countries.... and am not even gonna bother with eastern european notions o' civil liberties. am thinking we mentioned exclusionary rule in another thread, yes? exclusion is not embraced by most europeans, and australia has kinda a exclusion-lite version. exclusion is designed as a deterrent o' police excess as it is a rule that sets guilty folks free. most europeans is more enlightened and has decided that the way to deter cops is to punish bad cops as 'posed to letting guilty folks escape justice. in the US we punish the cop AND set guilty folks free. silly. should be called the excessive rule. furthermore, searches o' dwellings in the US requires probable cause, which is, from a practical perspective, a much more difficult threshold to overcome than european equivalents. euro "reasonable grounds" or "reasonable suspicion" would amount to "barest suspicion" here in the US.  

 

...

 

given Gromnir's profession, we is feeling sheepish to admit it, but more common than a belief that US laws is overindulgent o' police excess, a more common fear is that lawyers may twist laws so that no genuine criminal with enough money will ever be convicted. such a belief is not borne out by the facts, but regardless, the fear that criminals can escape justice 'cause o' wiggle-room in laws is common. in eastern europe, on the other hand, lack o' faith in legal system is due to belief that corruption is endemic as 'posed to institutional flaws that favor the guilty and the rich. regardless, the common American belief that laws and institutions is far too protective o' the rights o' suspects is having more than a little validity.

 

we honest don't know european statistics regarding incidence o' police using excessive force. am knowing that the US is a far less homogenized nation than is typical in europe. is our belief that such diversity makes conflicts such as the recent events in furgeson far more likely than in most european nations or japan. there is also more than a few unfortunate US institutional legacies that has made crime a hereditary problem. nevertheless, we has no genuine knowledge o' statistics to support our assumptions regarding euro police excess. we do know laws though, and bester is ridiculous wrong 'bout laws. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

At this point I don't know any of that for a fact. If it was, it would be case closed.

It is a fact that the officer didn't know about the robbery. I'd cite Tweets, but I know you've pretty much made up your mind.

 

I know that now, but in the morning when I posted they were reporting the opposite. I guess nowadays you have to wait two days after any news just to see if today they're still saying the same thing as yesterday. As far as you knowing my mind, you must be psychic. I'm waiting for all the facts to come out, and I think it will happen in not too distant future. Edited August 16, 2014 by Wrath of Dagon

[Leferd]

In California, A Champion for Police Cameras

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/us/in-california-a-champion-for-police-cameras.html?_r=0

 

"In the first year after the cameras were introduced here in February 2012, the number of complaints filed against officers fell by 88 percent compared with the previous 12 months. Use of force by officers fell by almost 60 percent over the same period."

[Hurlshort]

In California, A Champion for Police Cameras

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/us/in-california-a-champion-for-police-cameras.html?_r=0

 

"In the first year after the cameras were introduced here in February 2012, the number of complaints filed against officers fell by 88 percent compared with the previous 12 months. Use of force by officers fell by almost 60 percent over the same period."

 

Yeah, our officers have the cameras as well.  People sue police departments with regularity, so financially it makes sense to have video of every event.  

[licketysplit]

What is happening in Ferguson is amazing and horrifying. It showcases the underlying racism that is pretty well sown in our society. The YouTube of that police officer begging the protestors to attack them, calling them animals. The entire situation is screwed beyond control and belief.

 

I'm sure people resisting arrest should have no consequence. I mean, if a cop tries to put me in cuffs, first thing I do is try to squirm around and hit him. Guaranteed to bring good results.

[Gromnir]

 

In California, A Champion for Police Cameras

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/us/in-california-a-champion-for-police-cameras.html?_r=0

 

"In the first year after the cameras were introduced here in February 2012, the number of complaints filed against officers fell by 88 percent compared with the previous 12 months. Use of force by officers fell by almost 60 percent over the same period."

 

Yeah, our officers have the cameras as well.  People sue police departments with regularity, so financially it makes sense to have video of every event.  

 

the cameras is expensive.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66695-police-arrest-attack-reporters-order-reporters-not-to-cover-protest-in-united-states/?p=1478326

 

clearly Gromnir thinks the cameras is a good idea, but at $900 a pop, and $23,000 a year to store video for a smallish department, am recognizing that many police departments is gonna need help outfitting a substantial % of officers. for example, many counties and cities in CA is still operating in the red despite the overall improvement o' the economic situation nationally. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Leferd]

Expensive, but certainly a worthwhile investment for the agencies and municipalities that can afford it.