of goblins and orcs..

[NWN_babaYaga]

That someone thinks the imperial officers from the original Star Wars trilogy are SS people and that the empire IS the Nazi regime seems clear to me but that the chaotic tolkien orc breeds are german soldiers...

 

Orcs are anything just not german soldiers...

[Namutree]

 

Orcs are anything just not german soldiers...

Orcs are anything?

[ashtonw]

Orcs are my butt.

 

Lephys: Sorry for being rude earlier, I hadn't eaten dinner yet and that made me overreact and be cranky. :\

[Kjaamor]

*deleted*

Edited August 8, 2014 by Kjaamor

[Durinax]

On orcs, they can be very interesting. As others have said Arcanums orcs where very interesting (although I was not a fan of how they had no settlements or no word of there ever being one) and Warcrafts where good, until WoW continually made them more into the 'evil' race and a overall dumbing down of the race and cultures within and I hope that Warlords of Draenor can fix that.

[Namutree]

Overall; I like orcs, but they are over done.

[PrimeJunta]

But... we are the ones who get to decide. What we mean or don't mean is what makes something racist or not.

 

Intent matters, of course, but it's not that simple.

 

Most racism is unconscious: it's embedded into social structures and people's conditioned assumptions of what those structures are and how they work. This means that entirely well-meaning people who get extremely upset at accusations of racism can, in fact, do and say shockingly racist things. (Exhibit A: Paula Deen and her "plantation wedding" plans.)

 

This is why the "I get to decide if what I say is racist" statement is fundamentally flawed. Unless you're an actual card-carrying Nazi, you're almost certainly not aware of your racism, which means you won't recognize it when you act in racist ways or say racist things.

 

If a member of a minority tells you that something you said or did was racist, it is at the very least worth taking a very close look at it. 'Cuz they just might be right.

[Yonjuro]

...Tolken Orcs aren't racist. They were inspired by the German army. Unless the German army is a race; it isn't racist....

 

 Tolkein's Orcs might be more racist than you think (or, for that matter, than he would have thought). As, you said, the German army isn't a race but, during WWI, a lot of the propaganda in the U.S., Britain and, perhaps, elsewhere (?) tried to turn them into 'the other.' For an example, look no further than the poster earlier in this thread referring to them as 'The Hun.' 

 

 The Huns were from central Asia (possibly further east, from Mongolia) and were the stereotypical foreign invader. In other words, there was a deliberate attempt to 'piggyback' on existing racism (or, I suppose, xenophobia) to demonize the Germans.

 

 Racism can sneak up on you when you don't expect it (you know, kind of like the Huns (d'oh!)).

[ManifestedISO]

 

Lose the wings and this was basically how I pictured orcs for a decade, before Warcraft and Warhammer.

 

Wouldn't that be a Kobold? Look at the pointed head and the scales. I have never heard of any game system that has portrayed Orcs with reptilian features.

 

 

It's a draconian. Good-aligned dragon eggs (bronze, gold, silver, etc) are corrupted by dark magic, creating humanoid dragonmen. Some explode when they die, some turn to stone, some turn to acid, some have wings and can fly, some are strictly magic-users, all are powerful. From the Dragonlance universe, originating as a D&D campaign. Draconians were indeed an alternate race to the orcs, which don't exist in the setting. Goblins, yes, orcs, no. 

Edited August 8, 2014 by ManifestedISO

[Durinax]

 

 

Lose the wings and this was basically how I pictured orcs for a decade, before Warcraft and Warhammer.

 

Wouldn't that be a Kobold? Look at the pointed head and the scales. I have never heard of any game system that has portrayed Orcs with reptilian features.

 

 

It's a draconian. Good-aligned dragon eggs (bronze, gold, silver, etc) are corrupted by dark magic, creating humanoid dragonmen. Some explode when they die, some turn to stone, some turn to acid, some have wings and can fly, some are strictly magic-users, all are powerful. From the Dragonlance universe, originating as a D&D campaign. Draconians were indeed an alternate race to the orcs, which don't exist in the setting. Goblins, yes, orcs, no. 

 

Dragonlance had Draconians made from the Chromatics too but they where aligned with the good side of the spectrum (double negative makes a positive afterall)

[constantine]

I think this setting has enough high fantasy Tolkienism in it as it is. I enjoy that it's its own thing and not just the same races as everywhere. It gives it more character. I think adding more standard D&D races could quite possibly devalue it as a unique setting and discourage exploration in an "we've seen all these guys before anyway" fashion.

 

Just my 2 cents. Feel free to disagree.

 

I agree. I also enjoy the fresh scope on monsters. Like, when I was to see Troll pics for the first time, I expected something far more 'traditional'.

 

But then, the trolls I saw were different. Congratz on that, as for the *new* monsters, they look very inspired.

[BruceVC]

This  discussion is getting very interesting and I would like to comment. Firstly those that know me know that I take issues of SJ seriously. I am vociferously opposed to any kind of bigotry and that obviously includes racism, sexism and homophobia. I also live in South Africa and grew up during Apartheid so I experienced first hand the inimical and appalling impact that system had on black  people. It basically humiliated and dehumanized a whole a generation because of the colour of there skin and attempted to legalize racism

 

But despite all this overt exposure to racism and the fact we as South Africans are very aware of racism, sometimes we see it when its not there, I have never in all my years of playing fantasy games or reading books  every thought of Orcs as symbol of racism. Tolkien did grow up in South Africa and its quite possible that Orcs did represent black people to him, I always thought they represented Germans as others mentioned

 

But the main reason why Orcs don't represent black people for me is that the representation of Orcs has evolved so much since Tolkiens day they have just become a staple of fantasy and have developed there own unique cultures and characteristics. Orcs in Tolkiens books were basically mindless, savage killing machines who didn't seem to have any purpose but to serve Sauron. If you look at the D&D view of Orcs they are just another race with real goals and aspirations, albeit brutal in some cases and hating certain other races

 

So for me there is nothing wrong or inappropriate with wanting Orcs as they are part of the fantasy genre that we all love. So of course this becomes a subjective discussion but I see nothing racist about Orcs and people may be a little over sensitive about this topic and over analysing there symbolic role in fantasy?

[PrimeJunta]

@BruceVC I kind of think the opposite. Namely, that we white people tend to be hypersensitive to being accused of racism and raise a sh1tstorm -- "playing the race card," "playing the victim," "social justice warrior" etc. ad nauseam -- whenever somebody brings it up. This puts a high social price on calling out racism, which means that most racism remains unchallenged.

 

Fact: the system we live in is racist.

Fact: we can't help absorbing unconscious influences from said system.

Consequence: we're all racist to some degree or another.

Ethical imperative: being racist is bad.

Ethical consequence: trying not to be racist is good.

 

Conclusion: therefore, being called out on racism is no big deal. Sometimes everybody does or says racist stuff. If called out, see if you can learn something about your unconscious attitudes from it, and try not to do it again.

 

If the price I have to pay for moving towards a less racist and more just world is getting occasionally called out for racism/sexism/whatever, then that is a pretty piddling price to pay, compared to what the people at the actual receiving end of racism go through in the system as it is.

 

And finally -- and I really have to emphasize this -- I do not believe it is wrong to enjoy an artwork (or whatever) even if it is problematic in many respects. For example I am an unabashed fan of Richard Wagner's operas, despite the incredible unpleasantness of the composer and the highly problematic elements in them. Recognizing that a work has problematic features does not and should not mean a demand to ban it or not enjoy it. You can recognize that there is no excuse for the way Picasso treated women, while being awed at his art. That's how people are. Contradictory.

[BruceVC]

@BruceVC I kind of think the opposite. Namely, that we white people tend to be hypersensitive to being accused of racism and raise a sh1tstorm -- "playing the race card," "playing the victim," "social justice warrior" etc. ad nauseam -- whenever somebody brings it up. This puts a high social price on calling out racism, which means that most racism remains unchallenged.

 

Fact: the system we live in is racist.

Fact: we can't help absorbing unconscious influences from said system.

Consequence: we're all racist to some degree or another.

Ethical imperative: being racist is bad.

Ethical consequence: trying not to be racist is good.

 

Conclusion: therefore, being called out on racism is no big deal. Sometimes everybody does or says racist stuff. If called out, see if you can learn something about your unconscious attitudes from it, and try not to do it again.

 

If the price I have to pay for moving towards a less racist and more just world is getting occasionally called out for racism/sexism/whatever, then that is a pretty piddling price to pay, compared to what the people at the actual receiving end of racism go through in the system as it is.

 

And finally -- and I really have to emphasize this -- I do not believe it is wrong to enjoy an artwork (or whatever) even if it is problematic in many respects. For example I am an unabashed fan of Richard Wagner's operas, despite the incredible unpleasantness of the composer and the highly problematic elements in them. Recognizing that a work has problematic features does not and should not mean a demand to ban it or not enjoy it. You can recognize that there is no excuse for the way Picasso treated women, while being awed at his art. That's how people are. Contradictory.

 

That's a good post, very insightful and reasonable

 

I agree with the general sentiment. So basically you are saying that bigotry like racism does exist in society and even if sometimes we think something is racist but its not just the fact we are raising awareness is worth the possible fact we may be wrong?

[PrimeJunta]

Not exacctly.

 

We're not infallible. I'm sure there are times when people see racism when it's not really there. I'm also pretty damn sure that this is much rarer than not speaking up when seeing racism that is actually there.

 

So I'm not saying that we should call out racism if it isn't there. What I am saying is that

 

(1) we should develop more tolerance for the "false positives" so that the social cost of calling out the real thing becomes lower, and

(2) that a lot of the time we -- as in, we whites -- tend to reflexively reject call-outs of racism without examining if they actually have some merit, and this is bad.

 

I.e., I don't think false accusations of racism are a problem big enough to get all flustered about, whereas I do think that racism is. Therefore, I think we can fairly safely ignore any events of the former, while paying attention to the latter.

Edited August 8, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[BruceVC]

Not exacctly.

 

We're not infallible. I'm sure there are times when people see racism when it's not really there. I'm also pretty damn sure that this is much rarer than not speaking up when seeing racism that is actually there.

 

So I'm not saying that we should call out racism if it isn't there. What I am saying is that

 

(1) we should develop more tolerance for the "false positives" so that the social cost of calling out the real thing becomes lower, and

(2) that a lot of the time we -- as in, we whites -- tend to reflexively reject call-outs of racism without examining if they actually have some merit, and this is bad.

 

I.e., I don't think false accusations of racism are a problem big enough to get all flustered about, whereas I do think that racism is. Therefore, I think we can fairly safely ignore any events of the former, while paying attention to the latter.

 

Yes that's exactly what I thought I was explaining, I am not saying we call out racism if we think it doesn't exist just to raise awareness. I'm saying we should discuss issues of racism but sometimes our perception of racism may be wrong but rather we say something than say nothing. Would this perspective of yours extend to other forms of bigotry like homophobia and sexism?

[PrimeJunta]

Absolutely.

[JFSOCC]

I still long for a setting that only has humans (or at least just one species) and where all enemies are also human.

[Macrae]

When people speak of "racism", it just tells me that person is ignorant..

 

There is no "racism" in the sense people fantasize about it, or it's really marginal. There is just exploitation of the weak by the poor, just like in class struggle, just like in liberal-capitalism how companies exploit each other. It is in human nature and we all have it in ourselves, because in the end we are humans. Europeans colonized africa not because of racism but because they had guns and capital and them no gun and resources..

 

So instead of saying which nation/ethnicity/race IS racist, just start by saying which ones are not...you'll see it really becomes difficult because all human social groups have had a time in their history where they exploited others and were "racist". So therefore is everyone is tall, no one is tall, racist doesn't exist..

 

Just like someone previously mentioned south africa, black people exploited now exploit poor whites by not giving them same rights, jews who were persecuted during ww2 now ethnically cleaning palestine, it's just in our blood...we're all the same after all..

So what you should be against is not racism but exploitation as a general rule...in a sense we're all being exploited by liberal-capitalism and yet thanks to virtual freedom fighters we all are against something that doesn't exist...therefore when I see a person "denounce racism" it makes me wanna 2d6 slap him in the face with no saving throws.. xD

[PrimeJunta]

@Macrae, what ethnicity and gender are you, out of curiosity?

[BruceVC]

When people speak of "racism", it just tells me that person is ignorant..

 

There is no "racism" in the sense people fantasize about it, or it's really marginal. There is just exploitation of the weak by the poor, just like in class struggle, just like in liberal-capitalism how companies exploit each other. It is in human nature and we all have it in ourselves, because in the end we are humans. Europeans colonized africa not because of racism but because they had guns and capital and them no gun and resources..

 

So instead of saying which nation/ethnicity/race IS racist, just start by saying which ones are not...you'll see it really becomes difficult because all human social groups have had a time in their history where they exploited others and were "racist". So therefore is everyone is tall, no one is tall, racist doesn't exist..

 

Just like someone previously mentioned south africa, black people exploited now exploit poor whites by not giving them same rights, jews who were persecuted during ww2 now ethnically cleaning palestine, it's just in our blood...we're all the same after all..

 

So what you should be against is not racism but exploitation as a general rule...in a sense we're all being exploited by liberal-capitalism and yet thanks to virtual freedom fighters we all are against something that doesn't exist...therefore when I see a person "denounce racism" it makes me wanna 2d6 slap him in the face with no saving throws.. xD

 

I see what you are trying to say but I have to disagree, bigotry is a choice that some people make and racism is a form of bigotry.

 

And there are absolutely some people who dislike or think less of people automatically because of the colour of there skin. But you are also right, there is such a social dynamic as the class struggle in all countries in the world but this doesn't have anything to do with racism but there are similarities

 

End of the day no one is born a bigot, its a choice we make based on certain conditions that influence our perspective

[Kjaamor]

@Macrae, what ethnicity and gender are you, out of curiosity?

 

He's a mixed race and gender cage-fighting professor of medicine and astrophysics, like the rest of us on the internet.

[Malekith]

 

When people speak of "racism", it just tells me that person is ignorant..

 

There is no "racism" in the sense people fantasize about it, or it's really marginal. There is just exploitation of the weak by the poor, just like in class struggle, just like in liberal-capitalism how companies exploit each other. It is in human nature and we all have it in ourselves, because in the end we are humans. Europeans colonized africa not because of racism but because they had guns and capital and them no gun and resources..

 

So instead of saying which nation/ethnicity/race IS racist, just start by saying which ones are not...you'll see it really becomes difficult because all human social groups have had a time in their history where they exploited others and were "racist". So therefore is everyone is tall, no one is tall, racist doesn't exist..

 

Just like someone previously mentioned south africa, black people exploited now exploit poor whites by not giving them same rights, jews who were persecuted during ww2 now ethnically cleaning palestine, it's just in our blood...we're all the same after all..

 

So what you should be against is not racism but exploitation as a general rule...in a sense we're all being exploited by liberal-capitalism and yet thanks to virtual freedom fighters we all are against something that doesn't exist...therefore when I see a person "denounce racism" it makes me wanna 2d6 slap him in the face with no saving throws.. xD

 

I see what you are trying to say but I have to disagree, bigotry is a choice that some people make and racism is a form of bigotry.

 

And there are absolutely some people who dislike or think less of people automatically because of the colour of there skin. But you are also right, there is such a social dynamic as the class struggle in all countries in the world but this doesn't have anything to do with racism but there are similarities

 

End of the day no one is born a bigot, its a choice we make based on certain conditions that influence our perspective

 

The problem with this (as opposed to unintentional racism Junta spoke earlier), is that if it's a concious choice someone makes, you can't  realy change his opinion no matter what you do or say to him.

 

 

 

And there are absolutely some people who dislike or think less of people automatically because of the colour of there skin

Nothing you can do will change that.

[BruceVC]

 

 

And there are absolutely some people who dislike or think less of people automatically because of the colour of there skin

Nothing you can do will change that.

 

 

Really, you don't think that someone could, for example, be homophobic and then realize this type of discrimination is wrong? You don't think people can change there views in life?

Edited August 8, 2014 by BruceVC

[Nonek]

Well one has quite a guilty sense of satisfaction from playing 40k Ork's, a heady rush when playing as a speciesist, crude, ill mannered, bad tempered if not psychotic genetically engineered super fungus that pays no heed to etiquette, decorum, feelings or manners. Somewhat diametrically opposed to oneself. Then again it's just a game and not reality, and the only people to worry over are those whom can't tell the difference, because they're mentally unbalanced.