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No, ape people, please. I don't even like Planet of the Apes. And King Kong is even worse than Tarzan. I'm so tired of all these tribal humanoid races, like orcs, kobolds, goblins and hobgoblins. I'm not very fond of those ogres and giants either, at least as long as they are portrayed in that dumb evil brutes which gravitate towards LE leader tyrant humanoids. All that sucks just as much as the demonspawn in Dragon Age, which pretty much ruined that game for me. The orcs and bugbears-section of the NWN2 OC is the worst part. I want a game much more along the lines of Mask of the Betrayer, slightly exotic, weird, ever so exciting and still ever so believable. :)

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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I sometimes think that the most underused monster in fantasy cRPG's is the human.

 

That's because the human is the most used monster in everything else. Except for maybe Sci Fi.


The sky had never seemed so sky, the world had never seemed so world.

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I sometimes think that the most underused monster in fantasy cRPG's is the human.

 

No, it's the Neogi.

 

And here I was, thinking it was Zygom.


*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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That's a fascinating concept that I would love to see explored.  Weren't the orks in 40k something like the decayed remnants of a eusocial culture?

The orks in 40k are sentient fungus.

Edited by drake heath
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 I'd like to see a monkey race inspired by Sun Wukong. Give em a boost to agility and a slight resistance to elemental magic, but lower concentration and a slight weakness to non-elemental magic. They could look like this:

 

 

You wont.

 

Because then you'd also see a siht storm of "black people portrayed as stupid monkeys", vendors would decide to do the right thing and not carry the game. It wouldn't matter at all if the game would also have black people portrayed as black people with superior intellect and angel like presence. Because that's how things work, take one thing out of context and go crazy.

 

Neat pic though.

 

-----

BTW. I'm perfectly OK and happy to see orcs and goblins and such in a fantasy game.

 

You immediately know what's what and what to do. It's mostly when the game tries to be overly clever and start

making up cultural differences and oppression and reasonings and stuff, when things go south and fail.

 

They wont fit well into a super realistic scenario where everyone has mixed motivations and all.

More fun games, where orcs are orcs, skeletons are skeletons and bandits have black hoods and live in a bandit camp.

 

I don't have much faith in media, but I think they could at least understand a reference to journey to the west. I should also note that fur comes in a few colors. Black, white, brown, orange, and grey. Heck, we've already seen monkey people in a few video games. I doubt many would accuse Starfox of making black people stupid monkeys.

 

As for orcs; there's nothing wrong with using them in fantasy often. Ever hear people complain about how often humans are in fantasy; they are more common than orcs.


"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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No, ape people, please. I don't even like Planet of the Apes. And King Kong is even worse than Tarzan. I'm so tired of all these tribal humanoid races, like orcs, kobolds, goblins and hobgoblins. I'm not very fond of those ogres and giants either, at least as long as they are portrayed in that dumb evil brutes which gravitate towards LE leader tyrant humanoids. All that sucks just as much as the demonspawn in Dragon Age, which pretty much ruined that game for me. The orcs and bugbears-section of the NWN2 OC is the worst part. I want a game much more along the lines of Mask of the Betrayer, slightly exotic, weird, ever so exciting and still ever so believable. :)

Who suggested ape people? I suggested monkey people. I also never said they would be tribal. My idea of them was that they are exorcists and nomadic monks; sometimes druids. Usually a priest with maybe a few monk guards would visit small communities and help the locals with monster problems or establish temporary schools to teach their philosophy to anyone interested. They survive on the charity of those they aid or teach; at least that is how they typically are.

 

Most you would fight would be of a renegade warrior sect that want to engage in fights with unwary travelers to test and expand their martial abilities. They would not attack the player as a group if they outnumber you. So if you had a team of three and there were six of these enemies; only three would attack you. The other three would just meditate and only attack if you attack them.

 

Playing as that race or fighting the would be awesome.

Edited by Namutree
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"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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I don't get why orcs have to be tribal savages.

 

They could be bureaucratic savages, like the vogons from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

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The funny thing is, if you just make some ape people, there's absolutely no connection to any real-life race/ethnicity of people until the person calling "racist!" comes in and makes one.

 

"Wait... I just made ape people. Are you suggesting there are people in real life that are similar to my unintelligent ape people?"

 

Also, apes are already pretty intelligent, and are already a lot like people, so that's kind of a weak "splice" in fantasy terms.

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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The funny thing is, if you just make some ape people, there's absolutely no connection to any real-life race/ethnicity of people until the person calling "racist!" comes in and makes one.

 

"Wait... I just made ape people. Are you suggesting there are people in real life that are similar to my unintelligent ape people?"

 

Also, apes are already pretty intelligent, and are already a lot like people, so that's kind of a weak "splice" in fantasy terms.

Ape people is definitely a weak splice. That's why I suggest monkey people. Monkeys aren't apes.

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"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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I don't get why orcs have to be tribal savages.

 

Where does this even come from? Is it a Warcraft thing? Orcs in Tolkien are different.

 

 

Yeah, likely. And if Blizzard wasn't the source (I think they lifted a lot of stuff from Warhammer, but I'm not especially well read on the subject) they at least propagated it.

The thread title, and the discussion, just reminded me of the game Of Orcs and Men (perhaps intentional from the OP?), where you play as an Orc warrior with a goblin sidekick against monstrous humans. Bit of a fresh air, at least thematically!

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I don't get why orcs have to be tribal savages.

 

Where does this even come from? Is it a Warcraft thing? Orcs in Tolkien are different.

 

 

Yeah, likely. And if Blizzard wasn't the source (I think they lifted a lot of stuff from Warhammer, but I'm not especially well read on the subject) they at least propagated it.

The thread title, and the discussion, just reminded me of the game Of Orcs and Men (perhaps intentional from the OP?), where you play as an Orc warrior with a goblin sidekick against monstrous humans. Bit of a fresh air, at least thematically!

 

 

Yes, I thought of that game too when I saw this thread title.  ;) 

 

I love orcs and anything orc related, goblins, trolls, give me everything. But I think in PoE they would be misplaced. I think Aumaua already fit the brutish, big tribal race bill pretty well. Adding orcs would just make Aumaua less distinctive. 

 

And if one really wants to play an orc, one can just create an Aumaua barbarian and paint the skin green. Should be a pretty close match.  ;) 

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The only way I'd go for orcs would be the Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea way: the unholy progeny of Picts and swine daemons.

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Hi all,

 

I just realized orcs, goblins and halflings weren't going to be part of this game. While I don't necessarily criticize this design decision, I was wondering what would you lose by adding them at least at character creation?

Any semblance of creativity or respectability. Discussion over. Full stop.

 

Orcs, goblins and halflings can stay in their putrid, stagnant little plot in Tolkien-ripoff history. Obsidian can do better and they are doing better.

 

GODLYKE 4 LYFE! WESTSIDE!

Edited by AGX-17
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^ This.

That PoE has elves,dwarves,D&D classes and Forgotten Realms-like setting are the worst parts of the Project already. Adding the rest of the baggage won't help.

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Using genuine orcs and goblins is ok - they're as much part of the fantasy-mythology as are angels, trolls, or wyverns. Using stuff that clearly behaves and feels like orcs and goblins but pretends to be an original creature (about every usually-evil race of usually-minions) is rubbish.

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Using genuine orcs and goblins is ok - they're as much part of the fantasy-mythology as are angels, trolls, or wyverns. Using stuff that clearly behaves and feels like orcs and goblins but pretends to be an original creature (about every usually-evil race of usually-minions) is rubbish.

Orcs are an invention of Tolkien. Please actually learn something about what you're saying before saying it. I'm a kind person so I don't want you to have to experience the taste of your own foot. They have no place in any mythology.

 

Goblins don't even qualify as being on the level of "myth." They're more on the level of "**** medieval parents told their kids would happen to them if they misbehaved." Wyvern is just a fancy name for dragons. Angels are an order of magnitude above all those other creatures due to their presence in Abrahamic religions, which are globally dominant and have billions of adherents.

 

All that said, it's always better to try to come up with your own concept of an original creature/race than to just brain-puke out all the stuff you read in high school. Maybe change some minor details for the sake of plausible deniability/avoid accusations of your dwarves being an arguably racist caricature of Jews.

Edited by AGX-17
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 I'd be favour of including orcs if they were intelligently done. I've no expectation that they be added to Eora, but you never know. The setting hopefully has a long future ahead of it, which means a lot of room to grow.

 

Elves and dwarves have been pretty well developed in fantasy. Just about every blend of fantasy has three or four varieties of elf, and possibly multiple varities of dwarf. That element of Tolien's legacy has been thoroughly tapped. Orcs haven't. In most settings, particularly D&D settings, they are just a monstruous race with a poorly-conceptualized barbaric culture. If you're already accepting Tolkien's legacy into your work - which Obsidian has done with elves and dwarves - you have the opportunity to do something new with a traditional high fantasy race that is left underdeveloped by most franchises.

 

Warcraft of course puts a fair amount of emphasis on them, but while Warcraft may have had some good ideas it is pretty terribly written and could easily be outclassed. Elder Scrolls also does an interesting take and makes orcs playable and gives them a culture that is significantly different from the stereotype, though it is a fairly under developed part of the franchise lore.

 

Obsidian is putting its own spin on elves and dwarves. And what I appreciate about Josh's world building is the emphasis he puts on history. If Obsidian were to decide to include orcs in the setting at a later date, I'd be excited to see what Obsidian would do with them. Orcs in fantasy have yet to receive an intelligent, well-considered civilization and an interesting, serious history. Warcraft is too childish and dudebro, and Elder Scrolls comes close but does orcish civilization in very small scale and with very little attention.

 

So far in Eora humans seem to cover germanic, latin, and mesoamerican cultures, elves have a strong celtic influence, and aumaua seem influenced by the Far East. That still leaves a fair amount of historical inspiration that could be used to put a new twist on other races. Orcs could be injected with Turkic flavour, to take inspiration from the likes of the cumans, pechenegs, or early turks. Or they could take on an Armenian/Persian element and embrace a Middle Eastern aesthetic, which I think would be immensely interesting. Or, heck, you could even look to Greece for inspiration.

 

My point is that just about any direction that Obsidian would pick for orcs if they chose to explore them would be dramatically new development for a race that has received precious little inteligent consideration in the high fantasy genre, and that would be a lot of fun. I see plenty of room in the current status quo for orcs to be included at a later date without stepping on the aumaua's conceptual toes.

 

-------------------------------

 

 

Any semblance of creativity or respectability. Discussion over. Full stop.

Orcs, goblins and halflings can stay in their putrid, stagnant little plot in Tolkien-ripoff history. Obsidian can do better and they are doing better.

 

 

I might agree with this were elves and dwarves not present in the setting. The fact that they are renders the point absurd.

 

Taking a stand against Tolkien would be well and good, but including elves as an obligatory part of high fantasy robs that stand of any credibility. Do you think elves rob the setting of any creativity or respectability? If the answer is "no", then you are excercising an entirely arbitrary judgment of what is good Tolkien and what is bad Tolkien. Which is fine, but entirely subjective. Claiming an objective disparity between the "credibility" of elves and that of orcs is ridiculous.

 

 

 


Orcs are an invention of Tolkien. Please actually learn something about what you're saying before saying it. I'm a kind person so I don't want you to have to experience the taste of your own foot. They have no place in any mythology.
 

 

 

Orcs as we understand them are an invention of Tolkien. Which is equally true of elves and dwarves. But they do have mythological credentials, just obscure ones. Older forms of the word were used in English to refer to evil spirits, undead corpses, and something which matches our concept of an ogre. The modern orc has come a long way from that, but so have modern elves grown distinct from their mythological origins.

Edited by Sarog
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To be honest, I feel like there is a place for Orcs, for example a culture based on Aztec (more stationary) or Hun (nomadic) type. Not just mere brutes, but still warlike. Their labor based on slaves, more rural and religious types than art and science, but still with some own architecture that is not looking like primitive huts unless they are true nomads.

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I might agree with this were elves and dwarves not present in the setting. The fact that they are renders the point absurd.

 

Taking a stand against Tolkien would be well and good, but including elves as an obligatory part of high fantasy robs that stand of any credibility. Do you think elves rob the setting of any creativity or respectability? If the answer is "no", then you are excercising an entirely arbitrary judgment of what is good Tolkien and what is bad Tolkien. Which is fine, but entirely subjective. Claiming an objective disparity between the "credibility" of elves and that of orcs is ridiculous.

 

Yeah, I mean, drawing an arbitrary line like "Elves partially based on Native Americans are acceptable, while anything that looks like an Orc/Goblin/Halfling/Gnome is unacceptable and unoriginal."

Because "Elves = Celtic Native Americans" as never been done before, ever.

 

You guys need to have more trust in the worldbuilding abilities of Obsidian, I'm sure if they wanted to add Orcs/Goblings/Haflings/Gnomes they'd do a good job on making them more original and unique, like they're doing with the elves.

 

I think just breaking the fantasy trope of "Race = Culture" (which they're doing with PoE), without making them just an odd exception, goes a long way in making a typical fantasy race more original; and if they can do it with elves and dwarves, (even humans), why can't do they do it with Orcs?

Edited by drake heath
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Love Dwarves but they are never made the way I would like to see them.Extreme strength with +4 points towards that score(living deep inside of rock tends to requiere great strength) coupled with a large negative also and that is very slow movement.So in open area combat they kinda suck as enemies can kite them from afar but get them into closed tight spaces and those little buggars grow and grow and you will feel just how tough they really are.

 

Which gets me to a question I have for POE.I have this thing in RPG's that ruins the game for me whenever it happens and that is magical items that improve attributes.You go all out in making parties with strong fighters and then you find a ring that grants your weakling the same strength.Why even bother then is the feeling I get and then I start metagaming and starting fighters with low strength and high dex and then giving them the belt of cosmo strength.In my recent playthru of BG2enhancedI found Viconia and love the fact that she can not use so many weapons.It added flavor to her but then I found a belt of stone giant strenth and voila.Sorry just my pet peeve with RPG's and magical items that balance out all the characters.

Edited by wolfstriked

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Do we really need goblins and orcs? I don't remember any in BG1 and BG2. 

 

Not so much a matter of "do we need them?" as it is a matter of "could they contribute something worthwhile to the setting?" and "could the setting contribute something worthwhile to them?". In both cases I'd say the answer is yes. With respect to orcs, at least. I'm more ambivalent about goblins.

 

But there were plenty of orcs in both Baldur's Gate games. They just weren't terribly important or interesting.

Edited by Sarog
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