Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[Malcador]

So black box is on it's way to the Russians, but they say they have no intentions of keeping it.  Though I wonder if it's needed at this point, US have already confirmed it was a missile attack (but then again that might be a case of that needing to be done regardless, heh).

[Fighter]

No planes should've been there, but airline companies have been plotting courses over separatist territories because it saves fuel. Funny thing that. It was actually closed airspace to a certain flight level, because nobody expected that separatists would be retarded enough to fire on a civilian airliner at 10,000m.

 

 

The only people who are retarded are the ones who honestly believe a bunch of rebels would know not to fire at an aircraft flying over what is a battlefield. Because anyone with half a brain would not expect a hastily organized irregular militia to be able to properly analyse that type of information or have the proper command structure to make those kinds of decisions.

 

In 1988 US navy with all its equipment mistook an Iranian A300 for an F-14 and killed 290 people. But hey I guess it's totally reasonable to expect the Donetsk People's Republic militia to make a superior judgement.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Fighter

[Hassat Hunter]

Yeah, a plane destroyed in mid-air by military-grade anti-aircraft weaponry and crashing down to earth from ten kilometers usually leaves most, if not the entire crew and all passengers alive. After all, it's just ten kilometers. Everybody and their mother survive ten kilometer falls.

 

The tin foil hat is strong with you.

You won't believe the **** people survive.

I'm glad you're not part of emergency rescue services.

"The mine collaped. Well, all are dead, let's move on", "earthquake, many people under the rubble. Yeah, they're dead!"

 

Despite the many newsreports you sometimes read of people still found alive after the point any remaining people are presumed dead.

But of course you know better that can ever happen.

 

As for the argument "The government can't have shot it down since they had no reason to" I counter with "The rebels can't have shot it down since they had no reason to"... it's one of the most ridicilous arguments ever...

Also, feel free to explain to me what use Ukrain had in 2001 shooting down a civilian plane. Cause apparently, you're convinced they can really only do so with a reason...

 

EDIT: Apparently they now state 189 Dutch people died due to this crash.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[Fighter]

 

Black boxes will be confiscated by the Russians and never heard from again.

 

Don't joke I'm sure that's exactly what will happen if the Russians get to it first

 

 

 

 

 

Also the Russians do have the flight recorder, why when I pointed this out did  why you say " I don't know what I'm talking about"

 

You've implied far more than that. And you don't know what you're talking about.

 

 

 

This thread always brings out the worst justifications and excuses from people in there support for Russia or the Ukrainian rebels. You guys need to learn just to accept certain things and not look for some conspiracy theories.

 

I never justified anything. A plane shouldn't have been where a Buk-M1 was lost by Ukrainian millitary weeks ago. It's a fact, not a justification. Someone in charge of this messed up, it's not just the rebels who predictably shoot at everything that flies over them.

 

 

So lets focus on  your accusation, what exactly "do I not know what I'm talking about "

 

That's the plance was shot down by Ukrainian separatists or the Russians have the flight recorder?

 

 

The implication which you agreed with that Russia will take the black box and do something nefarious with it like hide it and what's on it. Not only you don't know this but it looks like Russia doesn't even want to keep it at least officially. So perhaps hasty conclusion even there.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Fighter

[Hassat Hunter]

And I just read 100's of volunteers are now searching for survivors.

 

Tagaziel, tell them how they waste their time and you're 100% sure everyone is dead and they should just give up...

[BruceVC]

 

 

Black boxes will be confiscated by the Russians and never heard from again.

 

Don't joke I'm sure that's exactly what will happen if the Russians get to it first

 

 

 

 

 

Also the Russians do have the flight recorder, why when I pointed this out did  why you say " I don't know what I'm talking about"

 

You've implied far more than that. And you don't know what you're talking about.

 

 

 

This thread always brings out the worst justifications and excuses from people in there support for Russia or the Ukrainian rebels. You guys need to learn just to accept certain things and not look for some conspiracy theories.

 

I never justified anything. A plane shouldn't have been where a Buk-M1 was lost by Ukrainian millitary weeks ago. It's a fact, not a justification. Someone in charge of this messed up, it's not just the rebels who predictably shoot at everything that flies over them.

 

 

So lets focus on  your accusation, what exactly "do I not know what I'm talking about "

 

That's the plance was shot down by Ukrainian separatists or the Russians have the flight recorder?

 

 

The implication that which you agreed with that Russia will take the black box and do something nefarious with it like hide it and what's on it. Not only you don't know this but it looks like Russia doesn't even want to keep it at least officially. So perhaps hasty conclusion even there.

 

 

Fair enough, I did suggest that Russia may have ulterior motives in keeping the black box. But now I don't see why they would keep the black box as the shooting down of the plane was done by Ukrainian separatists. But lets see where the black box ultimately ends up and who analyses its contents. All interested parties should have access to it

[BruceVC]

And I just read 100's of volunteers are now searching for survivors.

 

Tagaziel, tell them how they waste their time and you're 100% sure everyone is dead and they should just give up...

 

Don't be silly Hassat, there are no survivors and these search parties are normal to get everything associated with these types of crashes.

[Hassat Hunter]

Why am I not surprised the pro-Ukranian government side is almost salivating at hoping there are no survivors and everyone is dead.

Sickening :/

[Azdeus]

Apparently there were alot of AIDS researchers heading to a conference onboard the plane, shame :/

Edited July 18, 2014 by Azdeus

[Malcador]

Survivors are unlikely, is probably just laziness or assumption that they announced that they confirmed it quickly. 

[BruceVC]

Why am I not surprised the pro-Ukranian government side is almost salivating at hoping there are no survivors and everyone is dead.

Sickening :/

 

 

Survivors are unlikely, is probably just laziness or assumption that they announced that they confirmed it quickly. 

 

"Survivors are unlikely"......the plane was shot down 10 km up by a missile  

 

Come on guys, this may be a forum dedicated to a fantasy game but lets try to sometimes discuss things that are at least feasible..at least in the Off Topic section?

[Zoraptor]

"We don't have the equipment to shoot down a plane flying that high" Yeah, right.

Which is a convenient reversal, if we assume the rebels had the expertise to actually use a sophisticated SAM system that normally requires multiple trained personnel, but it ain't the only one. The Ukrainian government was claiming earlier that the rebels had no buks and had not captured any, and have said that they (Ukraine) had none in the area, both of which appear to be outright lies. Plus, they had claimed that Russian jets had shot down one of their sukhois yesterday as well, so taking that at face value they'd have a reason to have active AA in the area.

 

Personally I'm sceptical on the last part at least because I find it extremely unlikely that Russian fighters had anything to do with that sukhoi crashing any more than they randomly bombed apartment buildings in Donbass the previous day.

 

AlJ at least has also said that Strelkov's claim of downing a plane was actually posted significantly before the last contact with MH17, to whit "The military commander of the rebels, a Russian named Igor Strelkov, had written on his social media page at 13:37 GMT, half an hour before the last reported contact with MH17, that his forces had brought down an Antonov An-26, a turboprop transport plane of type used by Ukraine's forces, in the same area."

Edited July 18, 2014 by Zoraptor

[Malcador]

 

Survivors are unlikely, is probably just laziness or assumption that they announced that they confirmed it quickly.

 

"Survivors are unlikely"......the plane was shot down 10 km up by a missile  

 

Come on guys, this may be a forum dedicated to a fantasy game but lets try to sometimes discuss things that are at least feasible..at least in the Off Topic section?

 

Unlikely as in a low probability, but you never know until you check - strange things happen, after all.

[Rostere]

 

"We don't have the equipment to shoot down a plane flying that high" Yeah, right.

Which is a convenient reversal, if we assume the rebels had the expertise to actually use a sophisticated SAM system that normally requires multiple trained personnel, but it ain't the only one. The Ukrainian government was claiming earlier that the rebels had no buks and had not captured any, and have said that they (Ukraine) had none in the area, both of which appear to be outright lies. Plus, they had claimed that Russian jets had shot down one of their sukhois yesterday as well, so taking that at face value they'd have a reason to have active AA in the area.

 

Personally I'm sceptical on the last part at least because I find it extremely unlikely that Russian fighters had anything to do with that sukhoi crashing any more than they randomly bombed apartment buildings in Donbass the previous day.

 

AlJ at least has also said that Strelkov's claim of downing a plane was actually posted significantly before the last contact with MH17, to whit "The military commander of the rebels, a Russian named Igor Strelkov, had written on his social media page at 13:37 GMT, half an hour before the last reported contact with MH17, that his forces had brought down an Antonov An-26, a turboprop transport plane of type used by Ukraine's forces, in the same area."

 

The aircraft disappeared from radar 13:15 UTC. "Strelkov" wrote post at 13:50 UTC. Also, the site of last known radar contact is erroneous.

 

I have also heard that Ukrainian officials are claiming that Russians would have shot down the plane. I don't particularly trust what they have to say much. I trust more the images of rebel SA-11 systems which the rebels allege they have stolen from the Ukrainians (probably true), which reporters have seen in rebel-held territory. I find it likely that all of the planes have been downed by rebel AA and none by Ukrainians or Russians.

[Gromnir]

It's impossible for us to know at this stage if the elected Ukrainian government shot the plane down. But we can observe that there would be very little point.

 

Shooting a plane down, even a plane carrying Russian officials, would not serve any practical military purpose. Troops and weapons are mainly entering the country on the ground. Because of the existing massive land border with Russia.

 

It doesn't look like an accident, because a Ukrainian air defence unit would not engage a slow moving target at a high altitude mistaking it for an imminent threat.

 

So the only possible reason would be political. But how would it serve any purpose. It wouldn't pressure the Russians, who are in the grip of a media dominated by Kremlin owned and disciplined networks. It won't increase Western commitment to the government, because the West is already as supportive as they are going to get.

in hindsight, practical and rational reasons is rarely the actual reasons for these seeming random human tragedies. sure, stuff like 9/11 were planned out long in advance, but do not ignore the possibility that a chain o' causality that relies 'pon human error and stupidity is what were the cause o' this plane crash. am not saying there weren't reason driving the eventual decision to shoot down the plane. however, am thinking that it is very likely that numerous decision makers... failed. bad information, technical errors, poor judgment and a confluence o' improbable events likely all combined to result in this tragedy. 

 

then again, maybe the downing of the plane were part o' some kinda sinister and coldblooded plan. is gonna be some time before we know for certain.

 

'course it may not matter what actual cause or reasons is as many eastern europeans will prefer conspiracies to explain anyway.  nearly 50% o' russians don't believe that the meteor that did so much damage in their country last year were actually a meteor. 

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2013/0222/Was-Chelyabinsk-meteor-actually-a-meteor-Many-Russians-don-t-think-so.-video

 

is freaking wacky. no matter what actual evidence suggests, many will disbelieve any official version o' events 'cause the official version is necessarily a lie and cannot be true. just listen to some o' our resident board conspiracy theorists as they routinely bend over backwards to ignore or distinguish more plausible explanations.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Malcador]

Guess that arises from official sources lying so much in those places.

[Sarex]

Guess that arises from official sources lying so much in those places.

 

Nah dude, it's conspiracies.

[Gromnir]

Guess that arises from official sources lying so much in those places.

no doubt. if the government always lies to you, then you predictably become dubious 'bout anything and everything the government claims. however, knowing the root cause doesn't change the fact that those folks who has been lied to so frequent now grab a hold o' even the wackiest conspiracy theories to explain events. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gfted1]

 

 

"In Chelyabinsk last week we had a mini-Tungus," Mr. Lavbin says. "In both cases there were two objects, and a UFO knocked down the second object. In the Tungus case, the UFO was itself destroyed. We know this because we've been to Tungus and recovered metallic fragments that are impossible to produce on Earth ... If not for the intervention of the UFO in the Tungus event, the Earth could have been plunged into a second stone age. I think we were saved again last week," he says.

 

That. Is. Glorious.

[Malcador]

 

Guess that arises from official sources lying so much in those places.

no doubt. if the government always lies to you, then you predictably become dubious 'bout anything and everything the government claims. however, knowing the root cause doesn't change the fact that those folks who has been lied to so frequent now grab a hold o' even the wackiest conspiracy theories to explain events. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Well is degrees - not every theory that goes against official statements is tinfoil type stuff.  So far for this, I've seen that the Ukranian military f'd up and the US is covering for them, or that it was Ukranian fighter aircraft in the area and all for a frame of Russia.  Baseless probably, but not as wacky as the one where the plan was chock full of corpses BEFORE it was blown up and crashed to make it seem like it was shot down

[Sarex]

Well is degrees - not every theory that goes against official statements is tinfoil type stuff.  So far for this, I've seen that the Ukranian military f'd up and the US is covering for them, or that it was Ukranian fighter aircraft in the area and all for a frame of Russia.  Baseless probably, but not as wacky as the one where the plan was chock full of corpses BEFORE it was blown up and crashed to make it seem like it was shot down

 

Someone watched Sherlock.

[kirottu]

Wouldn't this be a perfect time to announce Fallout : Europe?

[Tagaziel]

The only people who are retarded are the ones who honestly believe a bunch of rebels would know not to fire at an aircraft flying over what is a battlefield. Because anyone with half a brain would not expect a hastily organized irregular militia to be able to properly analyse that type of information or have the proper command structure to make those kinds of decisions.

 

In 1988 US navy with all its equipment mistook an Iranian A300 for an F-14 and killed 290 people. But hey I guess it's totally reasonable to expect the Donetsk People's Republic militia to make a superior judgement.

That category entails a lot of airline companies which had flights going over eastern Ukraine. As the article points out, it was a simple business decision: It saved fuel and the risk of someone screwing up so hard was considered negligible. It's the black swan problem.

 

You won't believe the **** people survive.

I'm glad you're not part of emergency rescue services.

"The mine collaped. Well, all are dead, let's move on", "earthquake, many people under the rubble. Yeah, they're dead!"

 

Despite the many newsreports you sometimes read of people still found alive after the point any remaining people are presumed dead.

But of course you know better that can ever happen.

Please provide me an example of people surviving a ten kilometer freefall after their plane was destroyed in mid-air by an anti-aircraft missile carrying a seventy kilogram fragmentation high explosive warhead designed for use against military planes. I find only one person who survived such a fall (incidentally, holder of the World Record for freefall survival): Vesna Vulovic.

 

Sure, volunteers can be looking for survivors. But they will only find bodies or rather, pieces thereof, because the chances of surviving the missile hitting the plane and the ten kilometer fall afterwards are astronomically low. It's not rocket science: A soft body impacting the ground at terminal velocity is not going to survive.

 

I mean, seriously. Do you even read what you write? Or what happened?

 

EDIT:

 

I'm reading about the Buk system and it's pretty terrifying. The system mounted on an armored personnel carrier (and that's apparently the case, as linked by a gentleman earlier in the thread) is ready to fire within five minutes after reaching a position and can lock on to targets in 22 seconds. Maximum range, as far as I can see, is 32 km, with a maximum ceiling of 22 km. The clincher is that the Buk system mounted on an APC is fitted with an independent radar allowing it to operate without a separate radar station, though it's much less sophisticated and returns blips.

 

The truly horrifying thing is the warhead. The 70kg fragmentation high explosive warhead is apparently design to behave like a giant shotgun slug, destroying the target with a hail of shrapnel. Given that civilian airliners are not armored... Christ.

 

As for the argument "The government can't have shot it down since they had no reason to" I counter with "The rebels can't have shot it down since they had no reason to"... it's one of the most ridicilous arguments ever...

Also, feel free to explain to me what use Ukrain had in 2001 shooting down a civilian plane. Cause apparently, you're convinced they can really only do so with a reason...

 

EDIT: Apparently they now state 189 Dutch people died due to this crash.

Oh, the rebels had plenty of reasons to fire on aircraft. They have, after all, shot down several Ukrainian military aircraft, including an Il-76 strategic airlifter.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Tagaziel

[Zoraptor]

 

Well is degrees - not every theory that goes against official statements is tinfoil type stuff.  So far for this, I've seen that the Ukranian military f'd up and the US is covering for them, or that it was Ukranian fighter aircraft in the area and all for a frame of Russia.  Baseless probably, but not as wacky as the one where the plan was chock full of corpses BEFORE it was blown up and crashed to make it seem like it was shot down

 

Someone watched Sherlock.

 

 

That conspiracy theory trope does actually predate Sherlock by ages. You can find similar accusations about IranAir655 previous, and later MH370 as examples. And most 11/9 conspiracy theories involve variants too.

[Hassat Hunter]

Also, the site of last known radar contact is erroneous.

"Anything that doesn't confirm my theory is obviously an error."

Great argument... :/

Please provide me an example of people surviving a ten kilometer freefall after their plane was destroyed in mid-air by an anti-aircraft missile carrying a seventy kilogram fragmentation high explosive warhead designed for use against military planes.

But the question I posed to you all was... how did the government knew that so fast after the incident. I mean, sure, now it seems "doh", but just 15 minutes after a plane crashed you already knew it was a warmissile, not a crash, with these effects.

I find it suspicious... you don't?

 

It's the equilevant of someone going after the first plane in the WTC "it was obviously hijacked and flew into there" rather than "what a tragic accident" and then the realisation that it was an attack only after the second plane.

Oh, the rebels had plenty of reasons to fire on aircraft. They have, after all, shot down several Ukrainian military aircraft, including an Il-76 strategic airlifter.

Still waiting for the reason why they shot down a plane in 2001, since the obvious belief here that since they had no valid reason to shoot down the plane they actually couldn't have shot down the plane. Which raises the question; "what reason did they have back then if they can only shoot down planes they want"

Of course, it's a stupid theory... but one several of you have oppered as "proof" that it couldn't have been the government.

 

Reality is, both sides had no reason for it, we just need to know who made the shot. The resistance could have seen it for an Ukraine military craft, but likewise Ukrain could have seen it as "Russian intrusion" and shot them down on that. What better way to prove Russia's involvement (which I still want prove of) than a downed fighter on Ukranian territory?

So yeah, both sides can have made the fluke, it's not automatically the "pro-Russian militants."