Update #78: The Leaders of the Band: Chanters and Priests

[Sensuki]

 

The crafting skill would have made 12 possible combinations, enough for unique combos for all classes, but it was cut.

 

Almost useless factual correction: Combination (6, 2, non-repetitive) = 15  (6! / (5! * 2!) = 6 * 5 / 2 = 15). Or intuitively, take the above list, and add 5 new entries with the Crafting skill + each of the existing skills, 10 + 5 = 15.

 

 

Quite right.

[Hormalakh]

 

The crafting skill would have made 12 possible combinations, enough for unique combos for all classes, but it was cut.

 

Almost useless factual correction: Combination (6, 2, non-repetitive) = 15  (6! / (5! * 2!) = 6 * 5 / 2 = 15). Or intuitively, take the above list, and add 5 new entries with the Crafting skill + each of the existing skills, 10 + 5 = 15.

 

6!/(4!*2!) actually.

 

*pedantic*

Edited May 18, 2014 by Hormalakh

[rjshae]

Five skills would make it even more bland than the DA:O system. *sigh*

[PrimeJunta]

@rjshae That depends entirely on how deep the skills are. If the same skills are used in crafting, conversation, and interacting with the world, and there are plenty of opportunities to do so, then five skills are plenty. I'd rather have five deep, well thought-out, and fully-fleshed skills than twenty trivial ones.

 

The only real problem with only five skills is that it will probably be easy to max out all of them in a party, which removes much of the validity of choosing between them.

[Sensuki]

Skills are checked in conversation and scripted interactions, and only the PC's skills are checked AFAIK, so it will be impossible to "cover everything".

 

To make up for that, mechanics have an in-combat benefit, which players may end up picking skills for over their out of combat benefit.

[Quetzalcoatl]

I believe they said the skills are being designed so that you get benefits from having multiple characters with a lot of points in the same skill. I think Stealth even takes the total of your party's skill in it to determine the 'stealth radius'.

[rjshae]

I wonder whether there will be Alchemy, Appraisal/Barter, Crafting, Herbalism, Medicine, Perception, and Poison skills? Or are those subsumed by the others now?

Edited May 18, 2014 by rjshae

[uberman]

You are right, but that would make the skill much less distinctive, and will allow you to max every skill.. and since they unrolled couple of them in trios, I am hopeful for more.

 

At the moment here is the current list of class\skill from the wiki:

Rogue - Stealth Mechanic

Ranger - Stealth Survival

Chanter - Lore Mechanic

Monk - Stealth

Druid - Survival Athletics

Wizard - Lore Mechanic

Priest - Lore Athletics

 

If Monk ends up being something other than (Stealth + Athletics), well, I guess it's time for a movie night at Obsidian with The 36th Chamber of Shaolin as the only feature on the schedule.

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078243/

Edited May 18, 2014 by uberman

[Lephys]

One thing, though... They could have checks in place that involve more than one skill.

 

Like... to "unlock" some dialogue/interaction option regarding some ancient device, maybe the check is for both the Lore skill and the Mechanics skill. Someone with just 100 Mechanics wouldn't necessarily comprehend the device, since it's so ancient and different, and someone with just 100 Lore would know how and why this ancient civilization designed their stuff, but not really comprehend the technical aspects of it. Etc.

 

Likewise, you could have checks to things like Athletics AND Stealth, simultaneously.

 

Not to mention the stat checks. Even if a single skill is checked (Mechanics to figure out how a machine is stuck, let's say), maybe you need Might to actually dislodge it?

 

Of course, back to what Junta said, this doesn't change the fact that SOMEone in your party (unless you're just playing the game with 3 or fewer people) is going to have high whatever-it-is-you-need, most likely. I mean, if you figured out how to dislodge a stuck mechanism, and you couldn't simply tell your Barbarian with 800 Might, "Hey, push real hard on this while I clear this out" or something, I'd be disappointed. And the same with skills. If there are 5 skills, and you have 5 party members, and they each max out one skill, you're pretty much not going to miss out on anything in any playthrough.

[PrimeJunta]

Skills are checked in conversation and scripted interactions, and only the PC's skills are checked AFAIK, so it will be impossible to "cover everything".

 

To make up for that, mechanics have an in-combat benefit, which players may end up picking skills for over their out of combat benefit.

That will address that problem.

 

I have to say though that I dislike the "only PC skills are checked" thing, except in conversation if it's always the PC that does the talking anyway. If there's a heavy rock to lift, it just doesn't make sense that the big brute of a muscle wizard can't lift it for the PC.

 

I'm on a KOTOR2 playthrough. I like the way it was handled there, except that like with everything else the game is much too generous. Most routine interactions could be handled by any party member, but there were plenty of conversations and one-on-one interactions where only the PC's skills count. There also was a relatively limited number of skills, most of which were genuinely useful.

 

It would have been none the worse if some of the skills had been merged to pare down the list even more, e.g. Repair and Security into Mechanics and Awareness and Stealth into Scouting.

 

The only thing it would really have needed though is higher thresholds. It's way too easy to get everything.

[Sensuki]

There would be cases where one person would be able to complete an action such as "move a boulder" and others where the party is required to (as a whole) complete an action, such as swim.

 

There'll be a rule for how these are done, but the simplest way is probably to just use the PC's skills (and attributes) for group tasks.

[Ineth]

There'll be a rule for how these are done, but the simplest way is probably to just use the PC's skills (and attributes) for group tasks.

 

I don't like the idea of being forced to always play an eloquent/charismatic/leader-type main character. NPCs should be allowed to fill that role as well.

 

Why not allow players to designate a speaker for the party who will handle (most) conversations?

The simplest way to do this would be to simply consider the character in "slot 1" of the party formation the speaker, but even better would be to give it a separate UI function so it would be independent of the combat formation.

[PrimeJunta]

@Ineth the main reason is that it would make writing the game a lot more complicated. If the story is at all personal, it's going to be very tricky to write all the dialog taking into account that it the character talking might or might not be the PC.

 

I.e., it'll only really work in IWD/SoZ style games where there is no distinction between the PC and other party members. We already know that P:E won't be like this.

[Sensuki]

I don't like the idea of being forced to always play an eloquent/charismatic/leader-type main character. NPCs should be allowed to fill that role as well.

You don't have to be any of those things? There's no Charisma.

[Ineth]

You don't have to be any of those things

 

That's a matter of context.

 

In PST, which was the only Infinity Engine game that made extensive use of non-combat skill checks, not playing a main character with those attributes meant missing out on most of the game (and experiencing much more difficulty with the rest of it). So yeah, you pretty much had to, even though the game mechanics theoretically allowed different builds.

 

I hope it won't be like that in PoE.

 

I think it would be fun to play a grumpy, ignorant, socially incompetent "hero" who would utterly fail at adventuring if it weren't for the loyal, diplomatically skilled NPC friend at his side who possesses the wisdom to step up and handle those tasks for the party.

But I never tried, because games that have the concept of a single PC tend to rail-road them into the "born leader" stereotype.

 

 

\@Ineth the main reason is that it would make writing the game a lot more complicated. If the story is at all personal, it's going to be very tricky to write all the dialog taking into account that it the character talking might or might not be the PC.

 

I.e., it'll only really work in IWD/SoZ style games where there is no distinction between the PC and other party members. We already know that P:E won't be like this.

 

Well, what percentage of the total amount of game dialog to you expect to be about the PC's personal story? Even in PST it was actually a small percentage, if you take into account the vast amount of side quests and generic interactions.

 

When necessary for story purposes, letting important NPCs bypass the party's speaker and address the PC directly is fine imo. But that doesn't mean the PC should have to handle all the day-to-day diplomacy (and other non-combat skill checks) as well.

[PrimeJunta]

Well, what percentage of the total amount of game dialog to you expect to be about the PC's personal story? Even in PST it was actually a small percentage, if you take into account the vast amount of side quests and generic interactions.

 

When necessary for story purposes, letting important NPCs bypass the party's speaker and address the PC directly is fine imo. But that doesn't mean the PC should have to handle all the day-to-day diplomacy (and other non-combat skill checks) as well.

I don't know.

 

I do know that if I was given two writing assignments, "write dialog for this story, assuming Pro Tagonist does the talking" and "write dialog for this story, assuming any of Pro Tagonist/Pallegina/Edér/Aloth/Sagani/Cadegund/Kana Rua/Adventurer's Hall Type does the talking, whichever has the highest appropriate stat", then it would take me a lot -- like a LOT -- longer to complete the second assignment, and the result would be a great deal blander and more generic.

[Sensuki]

I hope it won't be like that in PoE.

Won't be.

 

Skill and Attribute checks are not auto-win dialogue options in PE, I'm not sure which ones are checked more often in dialogue, but you won't be locked out of any content by not having a high amount of points in a specific attribute. Reactions from people are also based off the factional and disposition reputations.

[StrangeCat]

Your character models look fantastic as Alpha!  I hope you do more with the hair though.  Think of Models as little detailed miniatures.   Love the voice for the spells!  Nice pre-delay and tail decay.

Look forward to seeing what you do with spells.

[Morgulon the Wise]

 

I think it would be fun to play a grumpy, ignorant, socially incompetent "hero" who would utterly fail at adventuring if it weren't for the loyal, diplomatically skilled NPC friend at his side who possesses the wisdom to step up and handle those tasks for the party.

But I never tried, because games that have the concept of a single PC tend to rail-road them into the "born leader" stereotype.

 

When necessary for story purposes, letting important NPCs bypass the party's speaker and address the PC directly is fine imo. But that doesn't mean the PC should have to handle all the day-to-day diplomacy (and other non-combat skill checks) as well.

 

  ^ This would be a really good mechanic.

This leads me to...

I'd really like to be able to distribute some roles in my party as: speaker, collector, first in stealth (someone who has the reflexes to NOT trip into traps) They could be really helpful if the whole party is selected.

[barbarian_bros]

For French-speaking people, my French translation of the update 78 is available HERE.

 

 

Pour les francophones, ma traduction française de l'update 78 est disponible ICI.

Edited May 19, 2014 by barbarian_bros

[Zwiebelchen]

Dat ugly chanter... what's with that spike teeth?

Edited May 20, 2014 by Zwiebelchen

[Mor]

YOU racist bastard! next you'd be asking why those dwarfs are short or why the elves have pointy ears

 

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Aumaua

[Forlorn Hope]

If I am not mistaken, the chanter is an Aumaua, who are semiaquatic humanoids and have shark-like teeth.

 

edit: I was slow because I tried to find out if both coastal and island aumaua have spiky teeth... I don't think we have heard anything about that. Oh gosh, I want that collector's book, manual and almanac already.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Forlorn Hope

[rjshae]

Personally I like the portrait. That's a happy, contented character who has lived a spirited life.

[Failion]

clerics paladins should be able to be fallen. Its goofy in badlurs gate 2 couldn't you kill servants of your god in the temple district and still have access to your gods powers. And you could do this in icewind dale series also probably.