Israel vs Palestine

[licketysplit]

I back the jews. GO JEWS!!!

 

Edited July 12, 2014 by licketysplit

[licketysplit]

it's a fallacy to think that any of this has to do with religion. Religion is just a tool used by politicians to further their own agenda. If you look at those who represent their churches, synagogues, and mosques in the area, you'd see that they aren't the ones who further the bloodshed.

 

Jews Muslims and Christians were all living "peacefully" back when Britain was the big baddie in town.

Ahh, I don't think so. Religion can sway individuals to extreme acts and it can inculcate the young and impressionable. To say it's simply a tool of politicians is a gross simplification. And to cite ye old peaceful times when christians and muslims lived together is lunacy. There will be no peace between Christians and Muslims, ever. It's in the books. 

[BruceVC]

 

it's a fallacy to think that any of this has to do with religion. Religion is just a tool used by politicians to further their own agenda. If you look at those who represent their churches, synagogues, and mosques in the area, you'd see that they aren't the ones who further the bloodshed.

 

Jews Muslims and Christians were all living "peacefully" back when Britain was the big baddie in town.

Ahh, I don't think so. Religion can sway individuals to extreme acts and it can inculcate the young and impressionable. To say it's simply a tool of politicians is a gross simplification. And to cite ye old peaceful times when christians and muslims lived together is lunacy. There will be no peace between Christians and Muslims, ever. It's in the books. 

 

 

I agree in the sense that the core root of the problem between the Israelis  and Palestinians is a religious difference and the fact people on both sides feel they have a religious given right to certain areas that are historically significant. But they only believe they are significance because of religious doctrine

[Walsingham]

 

it's a fallacy to think that any of this has to do with religion. Religion is just a tool used by politicians to further their own agenda. If you look at those who represent their churches, synagogues, and mosques in the area, you'd see that they aren't the ones who further the bloodshed.

 

Jews Muslims and Christians were all living "peacefully" back when Britain was the big baddie in town.

Ahh, I don't think so. Religion can sway individuals to extreme acts and it can inculcate the young and impressionable. To say it's simply a tool of politicians is a gross simplification. And to cite ye old peaceful times when christians and muslims lived together is lunacy. There will be no peace between Christians and Muslims, ever. It's in the books. 

 

 

Whoah, time out. You mean in the 'there will always be war' sense, or the 'we better exterminate those foreigners' sense?

[Gorgon]

Militant islam as we have come to know it is a relatively new invention. There is no straight line of kulturkampf between Christianity and Islam going back to the crusades. The world is also getting less religious, not more. Although I can't substantiate that, it's just a feeling.

[JadedWolf]

 

 

it's a fallacy to think that any of this has to do with religion. Religion is just a tool used by politicians to further their own agenda. If you look at those who represent their churches, synagogues, and mosques in the area, you'd see that they aren't the ones who further the bloodshed.

 

Jews Muslims and Christians were all living "peacefully" back when Britain was the big baddie in town.

Ahh, I don't think so. Religion can sway individuals to extreme acts and it can inculcate the young and impressionable. To say it's simply a tool of politicians is a gross simplification. And to cite ye old peaceful times when christians and muslims lived together is lunacy. There will be no peace between Christians and Muslims, ever. It's in the books. 

 

 

I agree in the sense that the core root of the problem between the Israelis  and Palestinians is a religious difference and the fact people on both sides feel they have a religious given right to certain areas that are historically significant. But they only believe they are significance because of religious doctrine

 

 

That's true up to a point, but it's also true that religion and ethnicity are so intertwined here that it's difficult to make any distinction. Is it really a struggle between two religions, or between two ethnic groups (jews and arabs)?

 

On the other hand, among the Arabs are Christians and those do seem to react differently to the pressures they are under than the Muslim Arabs. Over the years, many of the Christian Arabs have emigrated elsewhere, while those that remain have not generally opted to use violence.

 

For example:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27883685

 

"A Palestinian Christian family that preaches non-violence from a farm in the West Bank is battling to hold on to land it has owned for 98 years. Now surrounded by Israeli settlements, the family is a living example of the idea of peaceful resistance."

 

I applaud their use of peaceful resistance, and I would hope to think that it may be a far more effective path than the senseless spiral of revenge and counter-revenge the Muslim Arabs engage in with the Israeli's. But then again I may be wrong, and people may prefer to give attention to bombs and rockets instead.

[Lexx]

Militant islam as we have come to know it is a relatively new invention. There is no straight line of kulturkampf between Christianity and Islam going back to the crusades. The world is also getting less religious, not more. Although I can't substantiate that, it's just a feeling.

I dunno. I feel like we are becoming more extreme. People either don't care at all or they care too much.

[Endrosz]

As for me, I came to a "resolution" a long time ago. A conflict like this is too embittered, too engraved to be solved by negotiations. On both sides there are enough people who think they can 'win' (whatever that means), so they need to show strength.

 

So I pray. That is my own resolution to this conflict. I pray for peace, and I don't want to know more than I already do. Knowledge and explanations don't help, hope is all we have.

 

This one might have been linked before, sorry if yes:

 

[Lexx]

So your resolution is to ignore it, pretty much. :>

Edited July 13, 2014 by Lexx

[Barothmuk]

All the while shedding the occasional crocodile tear.

[Guard Dog]

I remember a great line from the movie "Kingdom of Heaven", an enjoyable if not terribly accurate account of the Saracen recapture of Jerusalem. When the two main characters Balin and Saladin were discussing terms of surrender Balian promised to destroy the city rather than give it up. Saladin quips "I wonder if it would not be better if you did"

 

Obviously that never happened in real life, but it is a true sentiment.

[TrashMan]

So your resolution is to ignore it, pretty much. :>

 

Both sides are somewhat right.. and somewhat wrong.

 

"Justice" is unnatinable.

Total victory is any side would be a mockery of justice.

The Status Quo  pretty much is already.

[Hiro Protagonist]

So your resolution is to ignore it, pretty much. :>

 

Many choose to ignore it. How many friends do you have that are aware of the Israel Palestine conflict and choose to ignore it? And there are no crocodile tears.

[Lexx]

Indeed, but they don't claim to help with praying to god or something.

[Zoraptor]

Praying is probably more constructive than some of the approaches tried. If the US and Europe really wanted things fixed they'd put sufficient pressure, including sanctions and arms embargoes on Israel, if the arabs/ muslims really wanted it fixed they'd put sufficient and similar pressure on from the other side; and things would be fixed, so far as they could be fixed. Instead you have Obama, Cameron et al tacitly/ openly supporting Bibi and Saudi, Qatar and Iran tacitly/ openly supporting the Palestinians, so both sides think they can win by fighting which actively prolong things and make them worse. At least praying won't make things worse.

 

Besides, there's nothing genuinely constructive any particular random internet person can do.

[BruceVC]

Praying is probably more constructive than some of the approaches tried. If the US and Europe really wanted things fixed they'd put sufficient pressure, including sanctions and arms embargoes on Israel, if the arabs/ muslims really wanted it fixed they'd put sufficient and similar pressure on from the other side; and things would be fixed, so far as they could be fixed. Instead you have Obama, Cameron et al tacitly/ openly supporting Bibi and Saudi, Qatar and Iran tacitly/ openly supporting the Palestinians, so both sides think they can win by fighting which actively prolong things and make them worse. At least praying won't make things worse.

 

Besides, there's nothing genuinely constructive any particular random internet person can do.

 

And I will still argue that the West aligning with Sunni dominated countries like Saudi Arabia makes sense and is the right strategy for the region to ensure future stability

[TrashMan]

[Valsuelm]

[Malcador]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28325260

 

Just footage of a strike on a house, though i wonder what is the point of this though - just blowing up some people's homes after the warning and the "roof knock".

[Walsingham]

 

 

Couple of instant knock backs:

 

1) Rockets are artillery.

2) It's "Command and control" not "in control"

 

And even if the above were true, what does that make the guys firing rockets at Israel? What does that make people who believe in using military force against Israel?

 

I can't say this enough... I don't track this issue and I don't have a side. But portraying the Gazans as innocent concentration camp victims is bs. It's not that simple, and I suggest anyone who tries to convince you of that notion is simply trying to manipulate you.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Walsingham

[Valsuelm]

 

Couple of instant knock backs:

 

1) Rockets are artillery.

2) It's "Command and control" not "in control"

 

And even if the above were true, what does that make the guys firing rockets at Israel? What does that make people who believe in using military force against Israel?

 

I can't say this enough... I don't track this issue and I don't have a side. But portraying the Gazans as innocent concentration camp victims is bs. It's not that simple, and I suggest anyone who tries to convince you of that notion is simply trying to manipulate you.

 

 

Wise men don't speak to things when they don't know what they are talking about. They listen and seek to learn.

 

A prerequisite to being wise is knowing your intellectual and knowledge limits, yet not assuming others share your limits.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Valsuelm]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28325260

 

Just footage of a strike on a house, though i wonder what is the point of this though - just blowing up some people's homes after the warning and the "roof knock".

 

Good chance we'll never know for certain. It was possibly just random house chosen, but more likely someone specific Israel wanted dead was believed to be in that house. Either way, evil at work.

[Gorgon]

 

 

 

Couple of instant knock backs:

 

1) Rockets are artillery.

2) It's "Command and control" not "in control"

 

And even if the above were true, what does that make the guys firing rockets at Israel? What does that make people who believe in using military force against Israel?

 

I can't say this enough... I don't track this issue and I don't have a side. But portraying the Gazans as innocent concentration camp victims is bs. It's not that simple, and I suggest anyone who tries to convince you of that notion is simply trying to manipulate you.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right and he isn't portraying one side as 'innocent'. When it comes to inflicting civilian casualties the Isralies have the lead though. Of course that matters when considering the whole picture.

[Malcador]

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28325260

 

Just footage of a strike on a house, though i wonder what is the point of this though - just blowing up some people's homes after the warning and the "roof knock".

 

Good chance we'll never know for certain. It was possibly just random house chosen, but more likely someone specific Israel wanted dead was believed to be in that house. Either way, evil at work.

 

Yeah, but if they want him dead, what does warning achieve ? I'm guessing it's just a reprisal for being in Hamas allegedly, they'll destroy your house as revenge. Bizarre way to fight, I say.

[Zoraptor]

Against the rules of war too, viz collective punishment "Article 33. No persons may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against persons and their property are prohibited." The whole GCIV wikipedia article is worth a read actually, since it makes it pretty obvious that Israel is not following its provisions much at all.

 

Also the bombing policy is pretty dumb because they claim too much accuracy, and those things always end up with massive holes after meeting reality. We already had a bunch of people with cerebral palsy getting blown up because someone from Islamic Jihad supposedly lived in the building 3+ years ago and groups of militant Hamas operatives who were actually 10 year olds getting blown up on the beach in front of international journalists, too many of those (and assuming they actually get reported) and the whole narrative falls apart rapidly.