Pillars of Eternity – Partnership FAQ for Backers

[C2B]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-03-19-paradox-and-obsidian-we-both-know-theres-no-bs

 

 

 

 

Paradox and Obsidian spoke frankly to Eurogamer at GDC yesterday about their Pillars of Eternity partnership.

 

"What we both know is there's no BS," Obsidian boss Feargus Urquhart said.

 

"A lot of publisher handling is just relationship management. It's asking what's going on, it's handling that relationship, everybody patting everybody on the back and burping them.

 

"I feel like I could just call Paradox and say - excuse my language here - 'What the f***?!' I probably never would, but we could have a quick conversation about a situation and not do this dance. And that's great."

 

Paradox boss Fredrik Wester agreed. "It's a personal relationship that I feel works. This is not like our first awkward date. We've both been in the industry for a while, we know the ups and downs. We've both had some failures, both had some successes. We've both released some buggy games in the past and now we both want to release a really great gaming experience.

 

"Two or three years ago we had to publish games we couldn't really stand behind and that damaged our reputation, because we needed the cashflow," Wester added. "Now we're in a totally different position.

 

"If we don't think Pillars of Eternity is up to standard, we're going to tell these guys. And we're opinionated people, we're going to come back with tons of opinions. We have a QA team of eighteen people who're going to play the game for weeks and weeks and give their feedback."

 

Paradox's role in marketing, distributing, testing and supporting the game - as well as fulfilling backer rewards - will allow Obsidian, and the budget, to concentrate on the game.

 

That's not to say Paradox is doing all of this out of the kindness of its heart.

 

"There's always a financial upside in a partnership like this," Wester said. "You should never lie about that. You take a risk by investing your money, your time and your QA resources, but we think this game deserves to be played by a lot of people.

 

"[Obsidian] is probably the most prestigious developer we've ever worked with. It shows that we can do games not just with smaller developers, but we can work with larger developers too. Experienced developers who really know what they're doing."

 

The partnership raises the possibility of boxed versions and special editions of the game, although "nothing is set in stone yet", Wester said.

 

There's the possibility the pair may go on to work together past Pillars of Eternity as well. The two companies - and men - clearly see eye-to-eye.

 

"In our industry, it's our job to get along with people," Urquhart said. "But having said that, after this we're going to go out and hang."

 

 

The mention of "boxed versions and special editions" as something that's not a sure thing makes me think Paradox might be taking a cut off the digital release of the game as well.

 

If they are doing their own QA as well and some marketing that is not really a surprise. I can't imagine the cut a copy to be big though.

[anameforobsidian]

I would be far more mollified / appeased if they just explained the deal in simple terms.  IE Paradox provides bug-testing, advertising, and distribution in exchange for 20% of the gross revenue.  The whole, "allows us to more effectively allocate resources" is marketing speak, and not really worthy of a company that's been as open with backers as Obsidian has in the past.

 

I completely understand that publishers provide a host of valid services, but I don't like the vagueness of the press release and FAQ.

Edited March 19, 2014 by anameforobsidian

[yaggaz]

I can't say I'm happy.    No use of a publisher was mentioned during the campaign and now I feel like I've been bait and switched.    Disappointed.

 

Won't be reading responses, just giving feedback of my disappointment to Obsidian.

[LordCrash]

 

I get the impression some people didn't read your opening post.

Well, I know it can be a confusing issue. Luckily, since not much is changing on the development front (other than more focus on the game), it is easy for me to answer most of the questions.

 

But you haven't answered my "Who will be doing customer support?" question yet....

 

 

Nice article about the background of the deal btw: http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/18/5524044/pillars-of-eternity-deal-built-from-mutual-respect-says-paradox-and

Edited March 19, 2014 by LordCrash

[Luridis]

With Paradox on board, how much input will they have into the EULA for PoE?

 

I normally refuse to purchase Paradox games because their EULA terms give them the ability to summon me across an ocean to appear in a court that normally would not have any jurisdiction over me.  Never going to happen (for both financial and other reasons), thus I have games that I purchased in bundles sitting in my Steam account (don't get me started on them, either) that will never be played because of their EULAs.  Essentially, Paradox titles are wasted money for me.

 

IANAL

 

But, I'm pretty sure you're mistaken on this front. I've just read their EULA and there are some issues with it...

 

First, they can't "summon" you... You can just choose not to go. Contracts are governed by Civil Law, not criminal law, if you were worried about extradition. You'd have to break a criminal law in their country and extradition would involve lawyers and a court here first.

 

Second, it's a very one-sided contract and judges tend to look down on that kind of agreement. They ask for idemnity from you for any and all civil action and at the same time state that they can sue you and, if defeated, have the right to sue on another point, perpetually. (i.e. if defeated, the rest of the agreement doesn't expire.) This kind of contract is one I've seen the label "Exploitation or Unconscionable Bargain" put too more than once.

 

Personally, whatever software they sold you... I'd go ahead and download and then circumvent the protection scheme... Which is easy on steam. Am I suggesting you break the law? No, because you have the RIGHT to circumvent for the purposes of ineroperability. See section 1201(f): Circumvention for the purposes of interoperability. If you want to run that game on Linux under WINE, you're covered.

 

Consult a lawyer first, but I would think that if you really do make an attempt to run it on another platform and document your attempt, then you're butt is covered. Note: There is a section on archival as well.

 

But, you're right to object to their rediculous contract...

 

Obsidian:

 

I don't care what deals you strike with whoever, as long as you own the IP and are doing the development, etc. That said, I have NO INTEREST in Paradox's click-wraps... I expect my backer click-wrap agreement to be with OBSIDIAN, not latecomers to the party.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Paradox has made some great games and seems to be the ideal distributor partner for Obsidian.

But why stop there?

Paradox is developing a promising open CRPG with procedurally generated maps etc, Runemaster.

And this relationship with Obsidian opens up for something like a dream game of mine:

Mix together a fantasy version of Crusaders II-light, Runemaster and Pillars of Eternity, and just make a 4x game/sandbox CRPG with great stories, and I'll throw money at you like I've never done before!

[LordCrash]

Big comprehensive interview with Feargus Urquhart and Paradox CEO Fred Wester about their  partnership on RPS: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/03/19/project-eternity-release-date/

That sould answer many questions.

[Ineth]

 

This partnership actually puts Obsidian in a better position to create more Eternity content (DLC/Sequels).

 

DLC is one the thing that has me a little uneasy about the partnership with Paradox.

 

DLC in PoE?

Yes, I can see it now:

 

"Congratulations, you have cleared all five levels of this dungeon, and now stand before the entrance to the boss's lair (where all the good loot and the XP payout for the entire quest awaits). To unlock the boss's lair, please click: [buy 'boss014' DLC for just $10]"

 

Everyone, start panicking!

Edited March 19, 2014 by Ineth

[Huinehtar]

Can we be assured that Steam-free boxed copies will be available for people who hadn't backed the project, at release?

Because, with Paradox nowadays, I am not sure.

[LordCrash]

 

 

This partnership actually puts Obsidian in a better position to create more Eternity content (DLC/Sequels).

 

DLC is one the thing that has me a little uneasy about the partnership with Paradox.

 

DLC in PoE? Surely that can only mean:

 

"Congratulations, you have cleared all five levels of this dungeon, and now stand before the entrance to the boss's lair (where all the good loot and the XP payout for the entire quest awaits). To unlock the boss's lair, please click: [buy 'boss014' DLC for just $10]"

 

Everyone, start panicking!

 

How about reading Brandon's answer on this topic first?

Edited March 19, 2014 by LordCrash

[Greensleeve]

 

 

 

This partnership actually puts Obsidian in a better position to create more Eternity content (DLC/Sequels).

 

DLC is one the thing that has me a little uneasy about the partnership with Paradox.

 

DLC in PoE? Surely that can only mean:

 

"Congratulations, you have cleared all five levels of this dungeon, and now stand before the entrance to the boss's lair (where all the good loot and the XP payout for the entire quest awaits). To unlock the boss's lair, please click: [buy 'boss014' DLC for just $10]"

 

Everyone, start panicking!

 

How about reading Brandon's answer on this topic first?

 

 

I'm pretty sure he's joking. 

[ItinerantNomad]

 

This partnership actually puts Obsidian in a better position to create more Eternity content (DLC/Sequels).

 

DLC was a misnomer on my part. We aren't releasing small chunks of content. We will be doing a full fledged expansion on par with how CRPGs used to release expansions. The partnership with Paradox does nothing to change any of that.

 

Keep in mind that Obsidian still fully controls the IP and is the main driver for any content going forward. We will make sure we do right by our community.

 

 

It's comments like this that make me want to continue supporting Obsidian as a developer and try my hardest to make sure you guys stay independent. Never lose your humanity - we players take note.

Edited March 19, 2014 by ItinerantNomad

[Luridis]

Can we be assured that Steam-free boxed copies will be available for people who hadn't backed the project, at release?

Because, with Paradox nowadays, I am not sure.

 

Yes... Let's just bring this out in the open. I'm a backer, and I have no interest in this crap right here! < Another "Paradox" game...

 

• Download / Client Manager is required, including for gameplay
• User account creation is required
• Warranties waived (excluding physical merchantability warranties)
• Cover waived against any unforeseeable damages, disruptions of service
• Users must accept ALL changes to the Policy before playing the game.
• Difficult to read, understand and is inconsistently worded
• Drafted to only abide by the laws of Sweden¹
• Users not visibly notified of any changes made to the EULA / TOS
• Can’t review and query changes made to the EULA / TOS
• License to play the game only provided
• No refunds or exchanges for purchased games
• Circumvention of Steam DRM prohibited
• Not permitted to create “mods”
• Monitoring services / software are required to play Leviathan: Warship
• Warranties waivered (excluding physical merchantability warranties
• Class Action Waiver
• Cover waivered against any unforeseeable damages, disruptions of service
• Termination process dictated by Paradox Interactive
• Arbitration process isn’t freely-provided and is overseen by Paradox Interactive²

Note that 1 & 2 are just about a contridiction... Governed by the laws of Sweden & binding arbitration?

 

I did not sign up and back this project for more publisher bullsh*t! If this is the way it's going to go Obsidian, you can take my signed copy right out behind the studio and toss it in the dumpster. I am GDS&T of publishers and their... crap. I have to deal with the atrocities of licensed commercial software all day long at work. I will not come home and deal with product activation and always-on bs and giving me crap about making mods.

 

Seriously... I won't be back to kickstart anything you do, ever again. Don't make go pull Southpark off my wishlist.

[ItinerantNomad]

 

Can we be assured that Steam-free boxed copies will be available for people who hadn't backed the project, at release?

Because, with Paradox nowadays, I am not sure.

 

Yes... Let's just bring this out in the open. I'm a backer, and I have no interest in this crap right here! < Another "Paradox" game...

• Download / Client Manager is required, including for gameplay
• User account creation is required
• Warranties waived (excluding physical merchantability warranties)
• Cover waived against any unforeseeable damages, disruptions of service
• Users must accept ALL changes to the Policy before playing the game.
• Difficult to read, understand and is inconsistently worded
• Drafted to only abide by the laws of Sweden¹
• Users not visibly notified of any changes made to the EULA / TOS
• Can’t review and query changes made to the EULA / TOS
• License to play the game only provided
• No refunds or exchanges for purchased games
• Circumvention of Steam DRM prohibited
• Not permitted to create “mods”
• Monitoring services / software are required to play Leviathan: Warship
• Warranties waivered (excluding physical merchantability warranties
• Class Action Waiver
• Cover waivered against any unforeseeable damages, disruptions of service
• Termination process dictated by Paradox Interactive
• Arbitration process isn’t freely-provided and is overseen by Paradox Interactive²

Note that 1 & 2 are just about a contridiction... Governed by the laws of Sweden & binding arbitration?

 

I did not sign up and back this project for more publisher bullsh*t! If this is the way it's going to go Obsidian, you can take my signed copy right out behind the studio and toss it in the dumpster. I am GDS&T of publishers and their... crap. I have to deal with the atrocities of licensed commercial software all day long at work. I will not come home and deal with product activation and always-on bs and giving me crap about making mods.

 

Seriously... I won't be back to kickstart anything you do, ever again. Don't make go pull Southpark off my wishlist.

 

calm down. take a breath. then read what BAdler has written in response to the questions.

[Hassat Hunter]

You do know all EULA's are like that? Valve, Blizzard, EA all own your soul nowadays already...

 

And I see the hysterical reaction when Expedition Conquisitor mentioned the same (and possibly other KS'ses, though I didn't back any more) is still present nowadays.

 

Anyway, my question would be... with this deal, could shipping costs in the EU be lower. I refrained from getting a physical copy during KS because of the shipping costs, despite really wanting it... if the costs could be lowered, I could up my pledge to get an actual box, and that would make me very happy

[Theobeau]

Big comprehensive interview with Feargus Urquhart and Paradox CEO Fred Wester about their  partnership on RPS: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/03/19/project-eternity-release-date/

 

That should answer many questions.

Read the article and as LC states, answers many questions.

 

Well worth 5 minutes of a concerned backer's time.

[Infinitron]

Not to permitted to create mods? Paradox?

 

If that's true, then it just goes to show how meaningless EULAs actually are.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Infinitron

[C2B]

I can't say I'm happy.    No use of a publisher was mentioned during the campaign and now I feel like I've been bait and switched.    Disappointed.

 

Won't be reading responses, just giving feedback of my disappointment to Obsidian.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah

 

You might want to read responses, because it will give you a clearer picture on whats actually happening. Also you might want to finish your pledge if you backed the game.

[C2B]

 

Can we be assured that Steam-free boxed copies will be available for people who hadn't backed the project, at release?

Because, with Paradox nowadays, I am not sure.

 

Yes... Let's just bring this out in the open. I'm a backer, and I have no interest in this crap right here! < Another "Paradox" game...

• Download / Client Manager is required, including for gameplay
• User account creation is required
• Warranties waived (excluding physical merchantability warranties)
• Cover waived against any unforeseeable damages, disruptions of service
• Users must accept ALL changes to the Policy before playing the game.
• Difficult to read, understand and is inconsistently worded
• Drafted to only abide by the laws of Sweden¹
• Users not visibly notified of any changes made to the EULA / TOS
• Can’t review and query changes made to the EULA / TOS
• License to play the game only provided
• No refunds or exchanges for purchased games
• Circumvention of Steam DRM prohibited
• Not permitted to create “mods”
• Monitoring services / software are required to play Leviathan: Warship
• Warranties waivered (excluding physical merchantability warranties
• Class Action Waiver
• Cover waivered against any unforeseeable damages, disruptions of service
• Termination process dictated by Paradox Interactive
• Arbitration process isn’t freely-provided and is overseen by Paradox Interactive²

Note that 1 & 2 are just about a contridiction... Governed by the laws of Sweden & binding arbitration?

 

I did not sign up and back this project for more publisher bullsh*t! If this is the way it's going to go Obsidian, you can take my signed copy right out behind the studio and toss it in the dumpster. I am GDS&T of publishers and their... crap. I have to deal with the atrocities of licensed commercial software all day long at work. I will not come home and deal with product activation and always-on bs and giving me crap about making mods.

 

Seriously... I won't be back to kickstart anything you do, ever again. Don't make go pull Southpark off my wishlist.

 

And all of that has nothing to do with Pillars of Eternity. (As it currently stands)

 

Great.

Edited March 19, 2014 by C2B

[catspwnme]

If it helps you guys out then ...awesome!

[eRe4s3r]

I am no fan of Paradox (their stance on certain things... , and SOTS2 ) but as long as Paradox can not meddle in any way into the development this is literally nothing to be super "panicky" about... Obsidian is making the game they want to make, and Paradox is just somewhere far away (hopefully)

 

As for the no modding... it's not true Paradox has a stance against modding, you can say many bad things about them, but that isn't one of em. Paradox publishes games, and some of these developers do not fancy modders at all. But you can't blame Paradox for that. Though you can blame them for SOTS2 and how it released... or for the bad support of Sengoku .... ;P

 

Anyhow, first post and ending my lurking saying that... yay ^^

[Monte Carlo]

 

Can we be assured that Steam-free boxed copies will be available for people who hadn't backed the project, at release?

Because, with Paradox nowadays, I am not sure.

 

Yes... Let's just bring this out in the open. I'm a backer, and I have no interest in this crap right here! < Another "Paradox" game...

 

• Download / Client Manager is required, including for gameplay
• User account creation is required
• Warranties waived (excluding physical merchantability warranties)
• Cover waived against any unforeseeable damages, disruptions of service
• Users must accept ALL changes to the Policy before playing the game.
• Difficult to read, understand and is inconsistently worded
• Drafted to only abide by the laws of Sweden¹
• Users not visibly notified of any changes made to the EULA / TOS
• Can’t review and query changes made to the EULA / TOS
• License to play the game only provided
• No refunds or exchanges for purchased games
• Circumvention of Steam DRM prohibited
• Not permitted to create “mods”
• Monitoring services / software are required to play Leviathan: Warship
• Warranties waivered (excluding physical merchantability warranties
• Class Action Waiver
• Cover waivered against any unforeseeable damages, disruptions of service
• Termination process dictated by Paradox Interactive
• Arbitration process isn’t freely-provided and is overseen by Paradox Interactive²

Note that 1 & 2 are just about a contridiction... Governed by the laws of Sweden & binding arbitration?

 

I did not sign up and back this project for more publisher bullsh*t! If this is the way it's going to go Obsidian, you can take my signed copy right out behind the studio and toss it in the dumpster. I am GDS&T of publishers and their... crap. I have to deal with the atrocities of licensed commercial software all day long at work. I will not come home and deal with product activation and always-on bs and giving me crap about making mods.

 

Seriously... I won't be back to kickstart anything you do, ever again. Don't make go pull Southpark off my wishlist.

 

 

[LordCrash]

 

Can we be assured that Steam-free boxed copies will be available for people who hadn't backed the project, at release?

Because, with Paradox nowadays, I am not sure.

 

Yes... Let's just bring this out in the open. I'm a backer, and I have no interest in this crap right here! < Another "Paradox" game...

 

[...]

 

Please stop trolling. This is by no way "another Paradox game". It's a 100% Obsidian Entertainment game and you should know that if you read the thread here carefully. Paradox is some kind of subcontractor to Obsidian. Obsidian outsourced marketing and (physical) distribution including backer fulfilment to them because Feargus and Brandon thought that they have better skills on these topics than the guys at Obsidian themselves. That has nothing to do with any EULAs of Paradox games since Paradox just offer some services here. They don't have any decisive power how this game will be developed or how the franchise will develop in the future. And as a matter of fact Pillars of Eternity will be DRM-free as well. DRM-free means that of course you will be able to mod the game for example. It also means that you don't need any client to start the game. Nothing will change that. Paradox won't change that. So calm down, take a breath and please consider the real facts of the deal instead of just sticking to the "Oh my god, I hear PUBLISHER = evil" kind of BS...

[LordCrash]

You do know all EULA's are like that? Valve, Blizzard, EA all own your soul nowadays already...

 

And I see the hysterical reaction when Expedition Conquisitor mentioned the same (and possibly other KS'ses, though I didn't back any more) is still present nowadays.

 

Anyway, my question would be... with this deal, could shipping costs in the EU be lower. I refrained from getting a physical copy during KS because of the shipping costs, despite really wanting it... if the costs could be lowered, I could up my pledge to get an actual box, and that would make me very happy

I think it's too early to tell. But why don't you just stick to your digital pledge for now and get a physical box after release without any shipping costs?

[Luridis]

 

 

Can we be assured that Steam-free boxed copies will be available for people who hadn't backed the project, at release?

Because, with Paradox nowadays, I am not sure.

 

Yes... Let's just bring this out in the open. I'm a backer, and I have no interest in this crap right here! < Another "Paradox" game...

 

[...]

 

Please stop trolling. This is by no way "another Paradox game". It's a 100% Obsidian Entertainment game and you should know that if you read the thread here carefully. Paradox is some kind of subcontractor to Obsidian. Obsidian outsourced marketing and (physical) distribution including backer fulfilment to them because Feargus and Brandon thought that they have better skills on these topics than the guys at Obsidian themselves. That has nothing to do with any EULAs of Paradox games since Paradox just offer some services here. They don't have any decisive power how this game will be developed or how the franchise will develop in the future. And as a matter of fact Pillars of Eternity will be DRM-free as well. DRM-free means that of course you will be able to mod the game for example. It also means that you don't need any client to start the game. Nothing will change that. Paradox won't change that. So calm down, take a breath and please consider the real facts of the deal instead of just sticking to the "Oh my god, I hear PUBLISHER = evil" kind of BS...

 

 

I'm not trolling you nitwit... I'm emotional about it because I'm vested in this. I speak real loud-like when I object. I do that, because I find that all-to-often, when something is clearly wrong... Or, might be headed that way, not one person in the room will say a damn thing about it.

 

I'm not angry... I'm worried.

 

There's a reason I don't back kickstarter MMO's... I refuse to back anything that someone can turn around and revoke my right to play, or mod, or move to a new computer. I am done with that and if things even look end up that way, then I'd prefer to not have even bothered in the first place.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Luridis