Ukraine Redux

[Sarex]

Really sarcastic answer: Ah yes. Let us have a moment of silence... for the entire air force of two that were lost over Kosovo.

 

Semi-sarcastic answer: If you imply "winning" on the part of the Serbs as cowering under camo nets and bridges then sure.

 

Serious answer: Stealth *does not* mean "invisible." It simply reduces the distance of which an aircraft may be detected (probably <25nm, which thus means there are now giant gaps in what used to be a formidable air defense system. I will freely admit that the Stinkbug shootdown was as a result of poor planning when they had them fly the same ingresses to the target area as when you put a search and track radars directly in its path, you will eventually get a return.

 

The B-2 is an entirely different story. It's RCS is a fraction of that of the F-117 despite being three times bigger and a former Hungarian SA-2 operator and current SME has relayed to me that nothing short of the SA-10 has *any* chance against it. 

 

For the Serbs to make any meaningful incursion into Kosovo, it would have immediately tipped off the E-8 JSTARS and Rivet Joints that were flying overhead. After that, then they would have the second largest military in Serbia.

 

 

You do know that the war in Kosovo began before the bombings and that the only reason for the bombings was to force our land forces to move back from Kosovo? You were losing the proxy land war and weren't willing to commit your self to a land war. So try to demean Serbs all you want, the fact remains that you couldn't do jack-**** on the ground.

 

Are you for real? Did you really think I meant invisible to the naked eye? LoL...

 

What does that have to do with anything? OK, you have better planes now, what does that have to with us shooting down non stealth planes? Also worth mentioning, since you went there, those planes have a limited shelf life and cost extreme amounts of money to make.

 

What incursion? What are you talking about? We were already in Kosovo, we were winning, even despite the air support from NATO. Then in 1999 you started bombing us, first our military objects (which didn't accomplish anything because we moved everything that mattered), it's only when you started going for our countries infrastructure, ie. soft targets, power plant, power mains and water plants did we eventually give up.

 

Why go in to a discussion about Kosovo when you obviously don't know anything about the conflict?

Edited March 16, 2014 by Sarex

[Elerond]

Pathetic. Another "universal principle" to be applied only on a case-by-case basis.

 

Kosovo's situation was bit different from Crimea's situation, in that sense that their options were to be part of Serbia as autonomic area, or become independent nation which can't join with any other nation than Serbia, which for example means that UN will not recognize if Kosovo's Albanian majority decides to declare that Kosovo will join with Albania.

 

Some quotes from Wikipedia about Kosovo's declaration of independence.

The declaration of independence was made by members of the Kosovo Assembly meeting in Pristina, the capital of Kosovo, on 17 February 2008. It was approved by a unanimous quorum, numbering 109 members. Eleven deputies representing Serbian national minority boycotted the proceedings. All nine other ethnic minority representatives were part of the quorum. The terms of the declaration state that Kosovo's independence is limited to the principles outlined by the Ahtisaari plan. It prohibits Kosovo from joining any other country, provides for only a limited military capability, states that Kosovo will be under international supervision and provides for the protection of minority ethnic communities.

 

On 18 February 2008 the National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia declared Kosovo's declaration of independence as null and void per the suggestion of the Government of the Republic of Serbia, after the Constitutional Court of the Republic of Serbia deemed the act illegal arguing it was not in coordination with the UN Charter, the Constitution of Serbia, the Helsinki Final Act, UN Security Council Resolution 1244 (including the previous resolutions) and the Badinter Commission.

 

The Constitution of Serbia in its preamble declares Kosovo is an "integral" part of Serbia with "substantial autonomy". However, constitutionally speaking, Kosovo could never have become part of Serbia; when it was conquered, during the Balkan wars of 1912-1913, the constitution required a Grand National Assembly before Serbia's borders could be expanded to include Kosovo. A Grand National Assembly was not held, so annexation of Kosovo (and other new territories) was unconstitutional for Serbia.

Recognition of Kosovo's independence is controversial. A number of countries fear that it is a precedent, affecting other contested territories in Europe and non-European parts of the former Soviet Union, such as Abkhazia and South Ossetia.[20][21]

The text of Kosovo's declaration of independence addressed this issue by stating "...Observing that Kosovo is a special case arising from Yugoslavia's non-consensual breakup and is not a precedent for any other situation, Recalling the years of strife and violence in Kosovo, that disturbed the conscience of all civilized people...". However, Ted Galen Carpenter of the Cato Institute stated the view of Kosovo being sui generis and setting no precedent is "extraordinarily naïve".

[Zoraptor]

Kosovo's situation was bit different from Crimea's situation, in that sense that their options were to be part of Serbia as autonomic area, or become independent nation which can't join with any other nation than Serbia, which for example means that UN will not recognize if Kosovo's Albanian majority decides to declare that Kosovo will join with Albania.

 

That's a constructed difference though. Crimea has tried outright independence from Kiev twice prior (1991; 95% for vote) and in 1994. Both times they've been blocked by Kiev, in 1994 overtly by having their assembly effectively dissolved and their presidential post abolished by presidential decree, followed by rule by decree from Kiev. They can have no reasonable expectation that Kiev would not do the same thing again if given the opportunity. As with all things sovereignty related it relies on Ukraine's constitution applying to Crimea, and its constitution is specifically written to make sure that neither independence nor autonomy can happen without permission that will not be granted- specifically, the Crimean constitution has to be approved in Kiev and there would have no be a nationwide referendum on secession as well. Were Ukraine in military control of Crimea there'd be as little chance of that happening as of Serbia releasing Kosovo if they were still in military charge there.

 

And tellingly, even where the situation is nominally the same such as Abkhazia and South Ossetia which are both (theoretically) wholly independent nations rather than regions petitioning to join another state the west thinks the circumstances are different, even with their own sources admitting to ethnic cleansing in Georgia that was, relatively speaking, actually worse than what went on in Kosovo. You could just as easily write a preamble that says "observing that South Ossetia is a special case arising from its non consensual inclusion in Georgia by Joe Stalin and is probably a precedent for other situations because you cannot logically accept special pleading in only one set of circumstances just because you want to and it's convenient, recalling the years of strife and violence in SOssetia that disturbed the conscience of basically no one because it was our friends in Georgia doing it..."

[HoonDing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxUU3zncVmI

[Cultist]

Recent statement by James Carney reduced the overall IQ value of the planet.

"In this century, we are long past the days when the international community will stand quietly by while one country forcibly seizes the territory of another," says spokesman Jay Carney.

I bet a lot of republicans howled "Somebody! Make him shut up! Just make him stop talking!" as they heared it.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Cultist

[obyknven]

Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs make official statement about Crimea

 

 

Wait for me, and I'll come back!
 Wait with all you've got!
 Wait, when dreary yellow rains
 Tell you, you should not.
 Wait when snow is falling fast,
 Wait when summer's hot,
 Wait when yesterdays are past,
 Others are forgot.
 Wait, when from that far-off place,
 Letters don't arrive.
 Wait, when those with whom you wait
 Doubt if I'm alive.

 Wait for me, and I'll come back!
 Wait in patience yet
 When they tell you off by heart
 That you should forget.
 Even when my dearest ones
 Say that I am lost,
 Even when my friends give up,
 Sit and count the cost,
 Drink a glass of bitter wine
 To the fallen friend -
 Wait! And do not drink with them!
 Wait until the end!

 Wait for me and I'll come back,
 Dodging every fate!
 "What a bit of luck!" they'll say,
 Those that would not wait.
 They will never understand
 How amidst the strife,
 By your waiting for me, dear,
 You had saved my life.
 Only you and I will know
 How you got me through.
 Simply - you knew how to wait -
 No one else but you.

https://www.facebook.com/MIDRussia/posts/467855943313852

 

Lool! It's so cool live in country where all people are trolls, government are trolls also and president is troll of 99 lvl. All our last foreighn politics is just non-stop trolling of entire world. I'm so happy! 

[Mor]

Third Roman Empire is return.

Hail, Caesar: Russian Tanks Rolling into Eastern Ukraine

You mean:

 

[obyknven]

A referendum is a direct vote in which an entire electorate is asked to either accept or reject a particular proposal, this is highest form of democracy. All countries who don't recognized Crimean referendum IRL cant into democracy.

[obyknven]

 

Third Roman Empire is return.

Hail, Caesar: Russian Tanks Rolling into Eastern Ukraine

You mean: westbutthurt.jpg

 

This Western criticism looks really pathetic. Per 100 years West can't invent something new.

[Walsingham]

Quick question: what kind of referendum has only two options, neither of which is 'no'?

[Tagaziel]

Even the Nazis had more subtlety:

 

 

(Are you for the reunification of Austria with the German Reich under the leadership of Adolf Hitler?

 

Big circle: YES

 

Small circle: no)

Edited March 17, 2014 by Tagaziel

[TrashMan]

Quick question: what kind of referendum has only two options, neither of which is 'no'?

 

In soviet Russia, referendum votes on you!

[Walsingham]

LOL. Is that for real?

[obyknven]

facepalm.jpg

 

Not filled square mean Niet. It's common thing for all Ex-Soviet countries.

 

[Agiel]

 

You do know that the war in Kosovo began before the bombings and that the only reason for the bombings was to force our land forces to move back from Kosovo? You were losing the proxy land war and weren't willing to commit your self to a land war. So try to demean Serbs all you want, the fact remains that you couldn't do jack-**** on the ground.

 

...

 

What incursion? What are you talking about? We were already in Kosovo, we were winning, even despite the air support from NATO. Then in 1999 you started bombing us, first our military objects (which didn't accomplish anything because we moved everything that mattered), it's only when you started going for our countries infrastructure, ie. soft targets, power plant, power mains and water plants did we eventually give up.

 

 

Infrastructure is important for sustained operations, of which the campaign was successful in crippling. This is the essence of using air power as a maneuver element that embodied the AirLand battle concept; striking at command and control, logistics centers, bridges, and all the elements needed for high level operations. If Milosevics forces attempted to assemble in force to decisively defeat the KLA then they would have been hammered back to the Stoneage. He likely knew this situation was not sustainable and he soon sought a diplomatic out for his predicament.

[TrashMan]

 

So basically your argument is: "I'm right and you are wrong".

 

 

More like "the evidence supporting your story is flimsy".

 

 

 

But certainly not as much as it is in the interest of Croatia to lie. The trial is under way, people who are interested can see what proof we offer and what proof Croatia offers.

 

Really? I'd say Serbia has much interest there.

And you are right - people who are interested can see.

 

 

 

Wikipedia is anything but neutral as it mostly relies on the western sources. My sources are as valid as yours, unless you have the proof to show otherwise.

 

Serbia supremacy sites are anything but reliable.

 

 

 

Oh please Croatia barely saw any of the conflict, while I have family from Bosnia that went through the thick of it. Oh yeah we only saw the bombs drop on the news...

 

Dude...I'm talking about the war in Croatia.

How the frak can you claim Croatia barely saw any of the conflict that was going on deep inside it's borders?

Until the actual NATO bombings started, you had it easy. It was your troops marching around and burning/pillaging inside another nations borders, not the other way around.

Given that no Croatian soldier ever stepped foot inside Serbia, I'd say I'd bloody damn obvious who the aggressor was.

 

 

 

I haven't denied the wrongs the Serbian side has done, but you are still defending even the most obvious wrongs Croatia has committed.

 

Except there's nothing obvious there.

 

 

Oh yeah, you have trialed everyone but the people who matter. While we had our biggest political figures during the war jailed, and never found guilty.

 

I don't know what you're talking about given that practicly every general and political leader WAS on trial. Except...you know.. most of them were found not guilty.

 

 

 

We shot down 2 of the invisible planes with the third unconfirmed, do you find it that strange that we shot down "regular planes" too. The only reason it even came to bombing Serbia is because America couldn't force our soldiers from Kosovo, ie. they were losing.

 

Hahahaha!

 

 

[Walsingham]

*cough*

 

Define neutral source. Seriously.

[Zoraptor]

Quick question: what kind of referendum has only two options, neither of which is 'no'?

They had two options representing the two things the actual Crimeans themselves had previously decided upon, go back to their own constitution written by them after their previous independence 95% referendum in 1991 then arbitrarily torn up by Kiev in 1995, or joining Russia. The 'missing' option was to go back to the constitution Kiev wrote for them having- arbitrarily, retroactively and without reference to the crimean people and while having their soldiers and state apparatus stationed there as enforcement- given themselves the power to do so in their own constitution and to make it impossible for Crimea to actually secede. The two options given represent the will of the Crimean people, the missing one represents only the will of Kiev. And Kiev has no one to blame but themselves, it was their own policies and insistence on forcing a region that didn't want to be part of their country to remain and continuous encroachment on their autonomy that has lead them to this result.

[TrashMan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAZJoh_OhEs&feature=player_embedded

 

 

 

 

 

Trancript from the meeting of "Vrhovnog savjeta obrane Jugoslavije"  (High defense council of Jugoslavia) ,14. 8, 1995.  after operation Strom:

 

Milošević: Molim vas, 6 hiljada Hrvata je branilo Vukovar pola godine; napadala je cela Prva armija, vazduhoplovstvo, čudo, sva sila koju je imala JNA, a oni nisu odbranili Knin, kojem se može prići samo iz tri pravca; nisu ga mogli braniti ni 12 sati!?

Oni ga nisu branili, jer po svim izveštajima koje smo dobili od policajaca, građana i ostalih, čim je prestala artiljerijska priprema u sedam uveče, oni su naredili - bežaniju! Prema tome, tu nije bilo nikakvog otpora niti je bilo borbenog dodira sa hrvatskim snagama. (...) - Tamo je palo naređenje da svi izađu iz Krajine istog dana, čak bez stvorenog kontakta sa hrvatskom vojskom na najvećem delu fronta. Da smo istog tog dana napravili idiotsku glupost da im pomognemo, ko bi to stigao do Knina do večeri da im pomogne?! Pa, tamo ne bi moglo da se stigne od njihovih kolona kojima su zakrčili sve putove u bežaniji zajedno sa stanovništvom. (...) Pitanje je ko je, zaista, doneo odluku da krajiško rukovodstvo napusti Krajinu? Takva odluka, kada su imali sve uslove da se brane, izazvala je egzodus. Sada to treba da bude razlog da Jugoslavija jurne tamo da brani te teritorije, sa kojih su oni utekli kao zečevi?!

 

 

*********************

 

U prilog tome ide činjenica da je Krajina mjesecima pripremana na scenarij “humanog preseljenja”. Po selima u okolici Dvora na Uni i Hrvatske Kostajnice te na Baniji krajem 1994. i početkom 1995. kružili su razni činovnici i oficiri pripremajući stanovništvo na “privremenu” evakuaciju u slučaju sasvim izvjesnog napada “ustaških snaga”, koje “kolju sve pred sobom”. “Sjetite se akcije Maslenica, Miljevački plato, Medački džep”, upozoravali su srpski mediji. “Sve će vas pobiti i vaše kuće popaliti”, govorili su novinari, pripremajući narod na povlačenje

 

Taken from:

http://www.novossti.com/2011/05/prica-s-krajinske-strane/  (a serbian site)

 

TRANSLATED:

 

Around the villages in the vicinity of Dvor on Una and Croatian Kostajnica, and Banija, at the end of 1994 and the beginning of 95', various dignitaries and officers have circled around, preparing the populace for a "temporary evacuation" in the event of an attack by "ustaša forces", that are "slaughtering everything in front of them".

the Serbian media were warning "You will all be killed and your houses burned!".

 

 

 

 

 

More: (translate yoruself)

 

Za bježanje ljude je obavijestilo naše rukovodstvo. Narodu je dat veliki strah od Hrvatske vojske, pa smo morali izbjeći. Mi koji nismo bježali, strogo smo se sakrili, da ne znaju da ostajemo, jer bismo morali ili bježati, ili bi nas ubili Srbi. ... Išli su po kućama i provjeravali da li ljudi idu ... (Izjava N. Drače, 23. srpnja 1998., HHO, Vojna operacija ’Oluja’ i poslije,14).

 

Da to nisu bile samo prijetnje, pokazuje izjava M. P. (podaci u HMDCDR), da su joj “martićevci ubili sina na ležaju jer je odbio ići u kolonu” (HMDCDR: usmeno svjedočanstvo O. N. – podaci u HMDCDR).

M. K. (podaci u HMDCDR) izjavila je: Bili smo u podrumu zgrade gdje je zubar Milan Babić imao stan. Došla je milicija i natjerala nas u kolonu (HMDCDR, protokol 1396 od 18. 09. 1995. godine).

M. M. (podaci u HMDCDR) izjavio je: Bio sam ranjen od srpskog snajperista. Došao sam spašavati sina i svi se vratiti (HMDCDR, protokol 1360 od 14. 09. 1995. godine).

M. J. (podaci u HMDCDR), Hrvat iz Gračaca koji je morao napustiti kuću i ići u kolonu pod prijetnjom da će biti ubijen, izjavio je da je jedna njegova susjeda bila ubijena zato što nije htjela ići u kolonu (HMDCDR, protokol 1269, od 1. 09. 1995. godine).

Lj. I. (podaci u HMDCDR) iz okolice Gline kaže da se opirao ići u kolonu, pa su ga prebili vojnici RSK (HMDCDR, protokol 74, od 19. 01. 1996.).

D. Ć. (podaci u HMDCDR) kaže da je krenuo u kolonu “zato što su bile zaostale grupe za teror” (HMDCDR, protokol 247, od 12. 03. 1996.).

O sudbini srpskih izbjeglica koje je 8. kolovoza 1995. raketiralo srpsko zrakoplovstvo
izvijestio je ljubljanski list Delo. http://www.hrt.hr/arhiv/oluja/950808/H080895174801.html

Neki Srbi u izbjegličkim kolonama pregaženi su tenkovima, primjerice, čovjek kojeg je u “milicijskom” autu u Kninu prije dolaska Hrvatske vojske pregazio tenk SVK: ... Na desnoj strani putića (prema upravi Dizel depoa) našao sam jedan milicijski “stojadin”. Tragovi su ukazivali da ga je pregazio tenk. Bio je potpuno spljošten, a iz auta je virila ljudska noga. ... Krenuo sam dalje prema Komandi korpusa ... Ugledao sam jedan automobil “lada” ... u ladi su sjedila dva čovjeka u maskirnim uniformama Vojske RSK, stari oko 25-30 godina... Automobil je bio sa strane izrešetan mecima u visini grudnog koša. Tada još HV nije ušla u grad, pa ne znam kako su poginuli. Sigurno je da su ubijeni rafalnom paljbom. (HHO, Vojna operacija ’Oluja’ i poslije, str. 27).

Poznata je priča da su tenkovi srpske vojske u povlačenju pregazili kolonu vozila srpskih izbjeglica na Banovini. Tako je govoreći o “tužnoj koloni od 32.000 izbjeglica” dopisnik Večernjih novosti iz Zagreba Milenko Predragović naveo da: “očevici tvrde da je tu tužnu kolonu izgazio tenkovima srpski general Mile Novaković, prilikom bežanja sa Petrove gore”. Dakako, on smatra da hrvatski mediji interpretiraju tu verziju s ciljem okrivljavanja “srpskog rukovodstva za sudbinu izbeglica”. Čak sugerira da je kolona pregažena “srpskim, ali zarobljenim tenkovima”. (Milenko Predragovi}, “Kolona izgažena tenkovima”, Večernje novosti, 14. VIII. 1995.) Da ta konstrukcija nije točna potvrđuju i sjećanja sudionika Oluje (HMDCDR, memoarsko gradivo).

U prilog tome govori razgovor novinarke sa Srbinom izbjeglim iz Hrvatske: ... Dok mi priča (op. izbjegli Srbin) o brojnim samoubistvima na putu, pomrlim bebama i starcima, nedostatku hleba i vode, njegov strogi i vidno raspoloženiji kolega upozorava i njega i mene da to ništa nije za objavljivanje napominjući da je sve u redu, ali da je zabranjeno da se bilo šta o tome piše. Ko je zabranio, pitam, gospodin sleže ramenima i odlazi. Dalje se navodi: Jedan se stari ubio, dvadeset drugo godište. ... Sišao s puta u kukuruz i ubio se bombom... Srušen je most na Novoj Gradi i tu se jedna žena ubila. Kad smo naišli na most, ona se samo uhvatila za ogradu i bacila se jadna u vodu (“Progoni istočno od raja”, Intervju, br. 367, 25. 8. 1995., 5).

U potresnoj priči Radmile Dragičević (34) navedeno je: U našoj koloni umrlo je pet beba i mnogo starih ljudi koje smo ostavljali kraj puta, jer nam je rečeno da će ih sakupljati Hitna pomoć.

A Miloš Bradaš (39) navodi: Čovjek koji je ostao bez goriva u traktoru, valjda u nervnom rastrojstvu, pištoljem je ubio ženu i dvoje djece, pa sebe. Pokušali su ga spriječiti ali nisu uspjeli (“Ljudi s traktora”, Nin, 2329, 18. 8. 1995., 29).

O kaosu u izbjegličkim kolonama Srba iz Hrvatske svjedoči i jedan izbjegli starac: U obruču u Topuskom, saznali smo da muslimani kod Gline kolju redom. Nastao je kaos, plač, jauk, naoružani i pijani vojnici prijete, dvojica su se ubila. Onda je policija s Korduna zavela red. Tukli su motkama.... (Milena Marković, “Kroz psovke i batine”, Večernje novosti, 15. VIII. 1995.).

Svjedočanstvo 32-godišnje Višnje: ... U koloni smo bili od 5. do 10. avgusta 1995.
godine. Stajali smo, ili se sporo kretali. Hrane smo imali, to što smo ponijeli, ali ja sam slabo mogla da jedem. Izgubila sam apetit zbog svega što nam se dogodilo. Čuli smo da su bili neki pregovori i da treba da krenemo dalje. Postrojili su nas, uredili kolonu (hrvatska milicija) i naredili da svi ostave oružje, jer sa oružjem ne može da se pređe granica. Dozvolili su da se izvuče benzin iz tenkova, koji su ostali, ali ne i da se prenese oružje. Neki ljudi nisu mogli da podnesu da se odvoje od oružja, pa su izvršavali samoubistvo. ...(Žene Krajine – rat, egzodus i izbeglištvo, Beograd, 1996., 287).

O tome svjedoče već medijski poznat primjer bake Danice Obradović (prikazan na “krajinskoj televiziji” nakon akcije Medački džep), ali i 27-godišnje udovice Marine, koja je u svojoj potresnoj priči, između ostaloga, navela: ... Pored moje kuće (selo Kašić u zadarskom zaleđu) bilo je jedno brdo sa kojeg smo mogli sve da vidimo ko nam prilazi. Tu je bio “broing” (browing). Ja sam sa “broinga” pucala. (...) “Broing” je inače protivavionac koji kosi sve. U njemu su ljudi namjestili metke, sve kako treba da stoji i ja sam onda rukovala njime. (...) Morala sam da mislim na svoju
djecu. Ali kada nije bilo dovoljno muškaraca za seoske straže, ja nikada nisam odbila da budem na straži. ... (V. Nikolić-Ristanović, S. Konstantinović-Vilić, N. Mrvić-Petrović, I. Stevanović , B. Knežić, Žene Krajine – rat, egzodus i izbeglištvo, Beograd, 1996., 79).

I svjedočanstvo drugih žena upučuje na zaključak da je znatan broj civila u tzv. RSK, uključujući i žene, bio naoružan. Primjerice, u priči o svojoj tragediji i izbjegližšvu Neda (rođ. 1954.) je spomenula da je u zbjeg “ponijela sa sobom lično naoružanje, jer je to svatko imao” (Žene Krajine – rat, egzodus i izbeglištvo, 263), a 55-godišnja Desanka je u istoj situaciji “zgrabila jednu torbu i stavila najnužnije stvari, te ponijela lovačku pušku, ali ne i dokumente” (Žene Krajine – rat, egzodus i izbeglištvo, 283).

Edited March 17, 2014 by TrashMan

[Walsingham]

 

Quick question: what kind of referendum has only two options, neither of which is 'no'?

They had two options representing the two things the actual Crimeans themselves had previously decided upon, go back to their own constitution written by them after their previous independence 95% referendum in 1991 then arbitrarily torn up by Kiev in 1995, or joining Russia. The 'missing' option was to go back to the constitution Kiev wrote for them having- arbitrarily, retroactively and without reference to the crimean people and while having their soldiers and state apparatus stationed there as enforcement- given themselves the power to do so in their own constitution and to make it impossible for Crimea to actually secede. The two options given represent the will of the Crimean people, the missing one represents only the will of Kiev. And Kiev has no one to blame but themselves, it was their own policies and insistence on forcing a region that didn't want to be part of their country to remain and continuous encroachment on their autonomy that has lead them to this result.

 

 

So you're saying that they needed the option before, but they don't now? Because, the situation hasn't, you know, changed at all.

[Mor]

Quick question: what kind of referendum has only two options, neither of which is 'no'?

A referendum that was voted and rushed by a parliament which was held by that heavily armed local defense , its communication with Kiev was limited and probably was feed with a good portion of the same fear mongering and demagogy like what we seen dripping from oby "news", I wonder if people there even got anything resembling debate or basic fact checking of the rectification of such move to them(not to Russia or Putin).

 

Also, IMHO Putin don't want to annex Crimea which would release a political\domestic **** storm on his head, and make him responsible of the region, greater Autonomy option will allow him to claim victory, claim that his troop presence was needed, get the freedom he wanted for his forces (which Ukraine was limiting) and establish a pressure mechanism over Ukraine all the while leave Ukraine to deal with... While Annexation would reduce the ethnic Russian voting power(who are his best allies) and I doubt that many crimeans would want to give up on their Ukrainian passports/life. So really there is very likely only one option ...

[obyknven]

Crimea’s regional parliament has declared the region an independent state, after its residents voted overwhelmingly to break off from Ukraine and seek to join Russia, news agencies reported.

http://time.com/26911/crimea-parliament-declares-independence-after-vote/

 

Note for foreighners. For Russia is only interesting what Crimean people think about this. We not ask permissions from anyone else (US, EU, NATO or Kievans). All this ****storm produced by Western politicans and by some media just so useless. Crimean question is internal business of Crimean people, all others are not invited.
 

 

[Tagaziel]

LOL. Is that for real?

The Anschluss ballot? Yes.

[obyknven]

US began military intervention in Ukraine. First units ( ~ 1000 soldiers ) are arrived in Western Ukrine, Lviv. For cover their actions they talk about joint military exercise "Rapid Trident - 2014", but this exercise must happened few months later only from 14 to 25 July.

http://translate.google.ru/translate?hl=ru&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mil.gov.ua%2Findex.php%3Flang%3Dua%26part%3Dnews%26sub%3Dread%26id%3D32369

https://www.facebook.com/oleg.tsarov/posts/424638707668501

Google translated
 

 

NATO soldiers are ALREADY in Lviv and in the Black Sea Discussing the current situation in Kiev , journalists and political analysts agree that the number of people on Maidan all decreases . On Independence now fewer people than in Mariinsky Park ! This fact became obvious and the last council, which was attended by no more than 5000 people. No longer warmed revolutionary psychosis, people do not start those provocations that we observed with the journalist or Chornovil avtomaydanovtsem Bulatov , or other organized " sensation ." On the contrary , the process of unlocking the administrations in the western Ukraine , the negotiation process . Nevertheless , the mood in Kiev politicum quite disturbing . In the Black Sea included two U.S. ships - USS Ramage missile destroyer and the flagship of the U.S. Sixth Fleet Mount Whitney. On their boards of over 600 American "sea lion" ! Sent these ships to the shores of Ukraine (http://interfax.com.ua/news/general/188448.html). In addition , the U.S. military is already in Lviv. There began landing troops , although military exercises with NATO already scheduled for March. Expected a solid contingent of military - up to 1,000 people in full gear and full armor (http://www.mil.gov.ua/index.php?lang=ua&part=news&sub=read&id=32369). And then arrived, and the U.S. State Department's appeal to the citizens of America (http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/alertswarnings/ukraine-travel-alert.html). It warms up the already complicated situation. We are in trouble , fear another provocation . Because right now there is a chance that if this week goes well - without regular psevdozhertv revolution , without the attacks - that the overall situation is finally returning to normal. People are very tired of riots , sensations shocks. They want peace , tranquility and security to their families .

US government warns US citiezens don't visit Ukraine
https://www.facebook.com/oleg.tsarov/posts/424638707668501

[Zoraptor]

So you're saying that they needed the option before, but they don't now? Because, the situation hasn't, you know, changed at all.

 

I'd have put the status quo on the ballot, personally, but I do understand why they didn't, ie the status quo was dictated to Crimea from Kiev and was not local, unlike the 1992 constitution. They're basically reverting time to the pre 1995 situation before Kiev intervened and removed most of their autonomy (eg making all crimean laws vetoable from Kiev, removing the post of president) as they simply do not see the later constitution as valid. And not, it has to be said, without reason given that there are multiple articles in Ukraine's constitution written specifically- down to specifying that they apply to Crimea, by name- to force them into line and they did vote multiple times not to be so constrained.

 

On a purely statistical/ methodological level most referenda try to have only two options as that is by far the easiest and most reliable/ least confusing way to write them. To illustrate, the Falklands' referendum only had a yes/ no about remaining part of the UK but not an alternative option to become fully independent. On that purely theoretical level having the third option would be better, but it would muddy the waters and it would be more difficult to enunciate the options clearly- plus there'd be questions about whether the Falklands or Crimea could reasonably be independent as an option (probably yes for Crimea, if Ukraine would accept it which they clearly won't, probably not for the Falklands as they are simply too small and could not have a hope of defending themselves).