Ukraine burns

[Tagaziel]

Let's hope it lasts. From the link it seems like Yanukovych is gasping for air and trying to buy time however he can. No mention of whether he'll review his decision regarding the EU either.

The latest reports suggest he's bailed and is nowhere to be found. He's either on the run, seeking asylum, or dead. Or trying to pull a Darius. At this point, his death would hurt, rather than help the Ukrainian cause.

 

She actually survived.

Awesome, thanks for the link.

[BruceVC]

I wasn't going to mention the suspension of loans and so forth, for the simple reason that I don't think an economic response to an economic question is disproportionate. Russia needs Ukraine in its sphere of influence if it wants to be a dominant economic force in the region.

 

This isn't the Women's Institute. This is international politics.

 

However, I think the scale of violence against the pro-Euro movement, whether Russian run or not, puts things in a different light.

 

Personally, I think  it's sad that Ukraine has no choice but to accept one megalomaniac agglomeration or another. They're big enough to be deserving of true independence.

 

Ukraine doesn't want to be independent, they want to align with either the EU or the  Customs Union of Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan. This is there choice because they believe it will give them greater  economic prosperity. And I agree it would as opposed to them operating independently in these troubled economic times

[Zoraptor]

You've raised a good point but I would argue that almost no Western government would have such a total disregard for there citizens wishes or be happy to unleash the level of violence we have seen to stop protests

Heh, how soon we forget.

 

Go over to Belfast and tell them that Bloody Sunday never happened. Or if you prefer, go to Kent State and tell them that. Nowadays they just use kettling and other techniques to control the protests anyway.

[Zoraptor]

And? The alternative is not settled, because you might've missed the memo that the Ukrainians are pushing for snap elections (the constitution has been restored)

Ah, but it will no doubt include the stormtroopers of the revolution, Svoboda, yes? Your buddies have given them a taste of power, now.

 

How is Thatcher even remotely relevant to this thread? "Hey, this woman did bad things in a country thousands of kilometers away, so what happens in Ukraine is bad."

Hero to some, villain to many, which she is is a matter of perspective. But democratically elected she was, to be sure.

 

Furthermore, you're consistently ignoring the fact that under Yanukovych, the situation on Ukraine has deteriorated, its human rights record worsened, and Berkut acted as de facto political police. Yanukovych did not exercise his power legitimately either, as he violated basic principles the Ukrainian Constitution.

Can say the same thing about old Maggie. Rewrote the laws to specifically target her political enemies, the unions, used the police to enforce it etc.

 

Furthermore, you're contradicting yourself. Yanukovych is good because he's the democratically elected leader of the people, while Thatcher is bad because she's the democratically elected leader of the people. It's either-or, bro. You're applying double standards across the board.

It ain't double standards if you're doing it deliberately, indeed, it ain't double standards if you're actually pointing out that it's double standards. You, on the other hand, talk the democratic walk, but only if it's people you agree with. I just think that politicians are crap, on principle.

 

While you oppose the topic and you're bunching up undecided and opposed parties into one, just to create a faux majority. Crutch mutch?

Nope, basic tenet. Support is people who support, not people who don't care.

 

So in your world, there are no legitimate grievances to be had, just entirely relative groups of people pushing to impose their vision and interests of others?

Yep, sounds like the real world, that.

 

Furthermore, you're exercising special pleading. Euromaidan, Occupy, and the war protests all had a single common element: Spontaneous, popular protests. You're also ignoring the fact that the radicalization of the former was a direct result of attempted crackdowns by the government, which took place from the very beginning of the protests in Kiev.

Heh, yeah. Again, I know who Tyanybok is (even if I can't be bothered transliterating that grubby little fascist's name properly), unlike just about everyone in the western media. And, hilariously, John McCain. I also have eyes, so I can read his interview where he was quite open about making preparations for revolution, and how he and other opposition parties were organising it. In March. 2013. That's some delayed action spontanaity, that.

 

I would. I might not like the result, but I don't contest people exercising their rights.

Well, you might get your chance to put your money where your mouth is if the rumours of a reverse revolution going on in the east prove true. Best solution for the artificial country that Ukraine is may yet happen, split like a town in Croatia.

 

The current death toll (according to Wikipedia, which cites all of the sources) is 16 dead cops and over a hundred dead protesters, with nearly 2,000 injured (as opposed to 200 on the opposite side of the barricade). Trying to arbitrarily limit the timeframe to just the period where the numbers support your argument is bad form. Trying to skew them and pin the blame on protesters exercising their legitimate rights is even worse.

Now that's special pleading for you. The vast majority of those 100+ protester deaths came after the day in which numbers nearly matched. That that is so is utterly unsurprising, once you kill that number of po pos the gloves most definitively come off and they'll shoot to kill, to preserve their own lives against the deadly violence used against them.

 

Which, in your logic, gives total free reign to anyone who happens the election. Representative democracy is representative, power derived from the people's mandate, and accountability. Yanukovych's actions deprived him of legitimacy, specifically when he attempted to break up the protests, putting his own country to the torch.

And again, any western country would break up those protests in those circumstances. Any one. They probably wouldn't expect, or get, so many police deaths in response though.

[Fighter]

Let's be objective about Ukrainian police. Are they totally clean? Not even close. Watch the video below however, watch the whole things and note how mostly passive the police is (and yes I know it's just one video, but the things shown are things that factually happened) and how aggressive and organized the protesters were. Note the pepper sprays in possession of multiple protesters in the same crowd all individuals acting aggressively - imo clearly planned to do so. Remember also all the molotov ****tails which are no joke in as far as how much harm they can cause. Also as far as I know the first gunshot victims were police.

 

Lets not pretend that Berkut had no cause to use deadly force when threatened with weapons, injured, and killed. These things are facts. Remember the presence of nationalists gangs alongside protesters. Also below are fotos and videos of Alexander Muzyko (there is him openly brandishing an AK), one of the leaders of "Right Sector" which was in charge of the "active" part of the process.

 

Alexander Muzyko had close links to chechen terrorists since the 90s and even claims to have fought in the war in 1994 (video also below) -- this is no peaceful protester. Here is a quote from him: "As long as blood flows in my veins I will wage war against communists, jews and moscovites. This is my duty." Nice guy he may end up in the government now.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8PHnV1EnsA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOgQ6i_9Qbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adNazIUNsxY

Edited February 22, 2014 by Fighter

[Mor]

I wasn't going to mention the suspension of loans and so forth, for the simple reason that I don't think an economic response to an economic question is disproportionate. Russia needs Ukraine in its sphere of influence if it wants to be a dominant economic force in the region.

 

This isn't the Women's Institute. This is international politics.

 

However, I think the scale of violence against the pro-Euro movement, whether Russian run or not, puts things in a different light.

 

Personally, I think  it's sad that Ukraine has no choice but to accept one megalomaniac agglomeration or another. They're big enough to be deserving of true independence.

I wasn't addressing the economic question, I was addressing obyknven post. I suspect that he(like at least one other poster) was suggesting that this problem is due to external powers meddling in Ukraine affairs, ignoring Russia affairs. I haven't watched Russian news recently, but I wont be surprised if the general mood there is very similar i.e. that once again this an anti-russian move by westren russian haters.. ( I find it amazing how everyone(including former soviet countries, who had strong ties with Russia) developed such anti Russian sentiments and rush westward... Does Russia has any non grudging friends that neither need her or bullied by her? )

 

In that respect I thought it was important to show who is actually steering the pot. Also concerning the protest don't forget the anti protest laws and that before the police moved in, those were peaceful protest like the before in 2004.

 

 

Let's be objective about Ukrainian police. Are they totally clean? Not even close. Watch the video below however, watch the whole things and note how mostly passive the police is (and yes I know it's just one video, but the things shown are things that factually happened)...

If you are suggesting that the protesters aren't totally clean as well, then IMO this was underscored from the start in video article in the OP.

 

Also if you want to be objective a good rule of the thumb is no to pick edited videos titled "how it really happened", which like you dish out the blame in one direction and even trying to label the protesters as terrorist...

 

Btw, why in your opinion is the recent escalation? after all the protest were peaceful for several month and before hand they were peaceful as well.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Mor

[Tagaziel]

Let's be objective about Ukrainian police. Are they totally clean? Not even close. Watch the video below however, watch the whole things and note how mostly passive the police is (and yes I know it's just one video, but the things shown are things that factually happened) and how aggressive and organized the protesters were. Note the pepper sprays in possession of multiple protesters in the same crowd all individuals acting aggressively - imo clearly planned to do so. Remember also all the molotov ****tails which are no joke in as far as how much harm they can cause. Also as far as I know the first gunshot victims were police.

 

Lets not pretend that Berkut had no cause to use deadly force when threatened with weapons, injured, and killed. These things are facts. Remember the presence of nationalists gangs alongside protesters. Also below are fotos and videos of Alexander Muzyko (there is him openly brandishing an AK), one of the leaders of "Right Sector" which was in charge of the "active" part of the process.

 

Alexander Muzyko had close links to chechen terrorists since the 90s and even claims to have fought in the war in 1994 (video also below) -- this is no peaceful protester. Here is a quote from him: "As long as blood flows in my veins I will wage war against communists, jews and moscovites. This is my duty." Nice guy he may end up in the government now.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8PHnV1EnsA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOgQ6i_9Qbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adNazIUNsxY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_during_Euromaidan

 

The earliest activist deaths date to 21st January, with police deaths starting nearly a month later, during the storm on the Maidan. So no, the first deaths weren't policemen shot by activists, but activists killed by government forces.

 

As for retards like Muzyko, they're a part of the demonstrations. The Euromaidan isn't a homogenous, organized terrorist organization, like some claim. It's a mixture of people, from ideologists, to simply pissed-off Ukrainians.

 

snip

Sorry, not going to indulge you any longer. I'm not going to argue with someone who claims gunning down labourers protesting for fair compensation or military subjugation of countries are acceptable, because everything is relative. Mostly because at this point it'd consist of 99% expletives.

[HoonDing]

 

Hilarious. I bet Putin has a similar Golden Throne.

[213374U]

 

(1) Corruption in Ukraine is not going to be fixed by the EU. This is only relevant in the debate about independence in the sense that corrupt officials are more likely to be bought off by external parties rather than less. I don't see how a depressed economy means a country must absolutely become a satellite of another—there may be short-term economic advantages to doing so, but the long-term forfeiting of sovereignty is invariably glossed over. Again, closer ties would be advantageous to whom? The average Ukrainian? Because that's who's being killed on the streets.

And it wasn't supposed to. Again, the point of contention is the association agreement with the EU. This association would open the door for closer economic cooperation with the EU and development of Ukrainian economy, leading to long term welfare.

 

The average Ukrainian in the streets is fighting and dying for a free country and the ability to associate with the EU. That was the original reason the Euromaidan formed and it still is. There's a reason EU and Ukrainian flags are on the maidan.

 

Also, forfeiting of sovereignty? No country is truly sovereign in the modern world, maybe except for North Korea and other psychotic, insular regimes.

 

No. You keep connecting things that are not linked by a causality relationship. Economic cooperation with the EU does not mean a development of the Ukrainian economy. You need to present evidence that this would be the case. That's all I've been arguing and asking for in this thread—evidence that it will lead to "welfare" for Ukraine at any point. Statistics seem to indicate that joining the EU has, at best, zero impact on that and countries just continue on their present course (whatever that may be), while giving up an important portion of their monetary, legislative and judicial powers in the process.

 

I find it deeply disturbing that you are already giving up on national sovereignty and expect others to follow suit as if it's the obvious choice. It's also a world view that is simply not supported by facts. But I guess 55% of the world's population is "psychotic"... that certainly helps put in perspective some things you have said in this thread. The natural state of man is not slavery, no matter how widespread the practice may be—though he can be taught and led to believe it is.

 

 

 

 

 

(2) Take a closer look. The wealth differences have been increasing not only as an average but also within member states. This has been going on since the 80s (and possibly earlier). I'm not really interested in the aggregate index precisely because it can be misleading as you said. But wealth gap increases are a constant across the board even in the most well-off members of the EU (the link is for all OECD, disregard non-EU data). Same thing with poverty (analysis limited to 2011, no official data on expected increase; no expected decrease however). Even with the Europe 2020 reform package (2010), this keeps going. What does Ukraine stand to gain from all of this? Free transit?

Which is a global phenomenon not limited to the European Union. I studied those statistics before and they do highlight a problem. However, the OECD study you linked to (a great piece of research, thanks) also points out that there isn't a consensus as to what accelerated the development of inequality. It's likely a combination of factors, including faster growth of income in the top brackets, not marked by an increase of a similar scope in the lower ones.

 

Ukraine stands to gain:

 

* More free entry into EU countries.

* Access to EU markets.

* Easier opportunities for work in EU countries.

* Exposure to European law order, leading to reforms (which may be actually required per the association agreement).

 

Also, it's apparent you start with the preconceived notion that the EU is bad and then refuse to acknowledge that it may do some good. I'm well aware of the EU's shortcomings, but it's still the best bet for Ukraine.

 

I did not state or imply that the EU has accelerated the widening of the wealth gap, nor did I make any attempts to explain the reasons behind it; I pointed out that it's a tendency that has been going on since before EU integration in the 90's and the EU has done nothing to correct it. What I did say is that austerity reforms mandated by the Troika have not only not helped to recover from the crisis but have in fact had the opposite effect in the "periphery"—they are not even working at the macro level! This is well documented by the links I pasted in previous posts.

 

Of your list of things that Ukraine stands to gain, none directly entail economic growth. Workers migrating en masse outside of Ukraine (both blue and white-collar) is only going to make the already cutthroat competition for jobs in the EU worse, and except for those Ukrainians that find work abroad, is not going to help Ukraine any, either (migration of qualified workers is always bad news).

 

Finally, you clearly misunderstand what preconception means. I have been experiencing the EU since my country's accession in '86 so I have plenty of first-hand experience—I have also done my reading so I know what the EU is about, in concept and in practice.

 

 

 

Yugoslavia wasn't a strategic country between two superpowers that sat on the fence. It was firmly a part of the communist bloc, though due to the Tito/Stalin split, it developed on its own. A better example would be Poland, which was a strategic country between two superpowers prior to 1939 and tried to pursue a third way, according to the Two Enemies doctrine. It didn't work out in the end and after the Nazis and Soviets tag-teamed us, we got gobbled up by the USSR.

 

Is this the same Yugoslavia of the history books? The country was a part of the communist bloc only briefly, because Tito and Stalin never saw eye to eye to begin with and Yugoslavia had to fend for itself from 1948 until it was dismantled. So yes, it stood on its own for 44 years. It's a perfect example of what I was saying before that your idea that "strategic countries between two superpowers cannot sit on the fence" is historically false.

 

And no, Poland is not a valid example of that unless by "sitting on the fence", you really mean seizing as much territory as possible by means of force in the wake of the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires, and before permanent borders could be drawn. (1) (2) Your attempt to equate present-day Russia with Lenin and Stalin's militarily aggressive versions of Soviet Russia is cute, as is the implication that EU expansionism is comparable to Third Reich policy with regard to its neighbors, but the parallels fall apart beyond broad geography.

Edited February 22, 2014 by 213374U

[Fighter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_during_Euromaidan

The earliest activist deaths date to 21st January, with police deaths starting nearly a month later, during the storm on the Maidan. So no, the first deaths weren't policemen shot by activists, but activists killed by government forces.

 

Fair enough although that first one sounds very murky.

 

As for retards like Muzyko, they're a part of the demonstrations. The Euromaidan isn't a homogenous, organized terrorist organization, like some claim. It's a mixture of people, from ideologists, to simply pissed-off Ukrainians.

 

I never said they are. I specifically said nationalist thugs are amongst the protesters. Which is true and I would credit them with most of the deadly violence against police. There is a large part of the violence which was mutual and reactionary. The bulk of the violence on thursday was practically open combat. Which is why I don't think it's objective to blame the police for all of it.

 

Yeah some could be snipers that chose to shoot someone harmless. Someone else however could be saving his buddy from having his head cracked open with a bat as it is a fact of the matter that police came under open attack.

 

Hilarious. I bet Putin has a similar Golden Throne.

 

It's a fake.

 

EDIT:

 

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/1007568.html

 

Here are pictures from Yanuk's residence. He has a golf course and a private Zoo. But the "golden toilet" thing is a long running urban legend. The photo is not from his residence.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Fighter

[Tagaziel]

 

Hilarious. I bet Putin has a similar Golden Throne.

http://twitchy.com/2014/02/22/open-house-courtesy-of-the-revolution-people-of-kiev-swarm-yanukovychs-private-zoo-pics/

 

Waaat.

 

Also, Yanukovych got impeached by the Rada. 328-0.

 

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0222/505973-ukriane-protest/

[Tagaziel]

[quote name="213374U" post="1421410"

 

No. You keep connecting things that are not linked by a causality relationship. Economic cooperation with the EU does not mean a development of the Ukrainian economy. You need to present evidence that this would be the case. That's all I've been arguing and asking for in this thread—evidence that it will lead to "welfare" for Ukraine at any point. Statistics seem to indicate that joining the EU has, at best, zero impact on that and countries just continue on their present course (whatever that may be), while giving up an important portion of their monetary, legislative and judicial powers in the process.

 

Except you're going to dismiss any evidence presented, as contrary to your point. There is no evidence at this point, what exists are different expert opinions on what can happen. If you disagree that closer cooperation with the largest economy in the world on advantageous terms is not going to be beneficial for Ukraine, that's your right. But don't treat it as fact.

 

Furthermore, what "important portion" of monetary, legislative, and judicial powers does a country give up in the EU?

 

I find it deeply disturbing that you are already giving up on national sovereignty and expect others to follow suit as if it's the obvious choice. It's also a world view that is simply not supported by facts. But I guess 55% of the world's population is "psychotic"... that certainly helps put in perspective some things you have said in this thread. The natural state of man is not slavery, no matter how widespread the practice may be—though he can be taught and led to believe it is.

 

In what way am I giving up on national sovereignty? Subscribing to the idea of a federal Europe isn't giving up on sovereignty, it's subscribing to the idea of a federal Europe.

 

Furthermore, the Non-Aligned Movement isn't a group of perfectly sovereign countries. Every country is limited by international treaties it is a party of and other circumstances. That does not mean that the state is not sovereign.

 

 

I did not state or imply that the EU has accelerated the widening of the wealth gap, nor did I make any attempts to explain the reasons behind it; I pointed out that it's a tendency that has been going on since before EU integration in the 90's and the EU has done nothing to correct it. What I did say is that austerity reforms mandated by the Troika have not only not helped to recover from the crisis but have in fact had the opposite effect in the "periphery"—they are not even working at the macro level! This is well documented by the links I pasted in previous posts.

 

Of your list of things that Ukraine stands to gain, none directly entail economic growth. Workers migrating en masse outside of Ukraine (both blue and white-collar) is only going to make the already cutthroat competition for jobs in the EU worse, and except for those Ukrainians that find work abroad, is not going to help Ukraine any, either (migration of qualified workers is always bad news).

 

Finally, you clearly misunderstand what preconception means. I have been experiencing the EU since my country's accession in '86 so I have plenty of first-hand experience—I have also done my reading so I know what the EU is about, in concept and in practice.

 

While I've been experiencing the EU every since my country's accession in 2004, so I have plenty of first-hand experience. I also have done my reading (and have a law degree, but that's a separate matter), so I know that the EU is about, in concept and in practice. Spare me the condescending bull****, please. It sucks to be in Spain and Portugal, but don't pretend the EU forced your government to adopt unsafe policies, bloat public spending, and ignore the bubble. The Union does not micromanage countries, that's left to the individual national governments.

 

 

 

Is this the same Yugoslavia of the history books? The country was a part of the communist bloc only briefly, because Tito and Stalin never saw eye to eye to begin with and Yugoslavia had to fend for itself from 1948 until it was dismantled. So yes, it stood on its own for 44 years. It's a perfect example of what I was saying before that your idea that "strategic countries between two superpowers cannot sit on the fence" is historically false.

 

Which superpowers was Yugoslavia stuck between? I specifically pointed out that while it split with Stalin and the Warsaw Pact, it was still a communist country, a part of the bloc. It wasn't, however, a vital strategic area like Germany, Czechoslovakia, or Poland, where Third World War would be fought.

 

 

And no, Poland is not a valid example of that unless by "sitting on the fence", you really mean seizing as much territory as possible by means of force in the wake of the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires, and before permanent borders could be drawn. (1) (2) Your attempt to equate present-day Russia with Lenin and Stalin's militarily aggressive versions of Soviet Russia is cute, as is the implication that EU expansionism is comparable to Third Reich policy with regard to its neighbors, but the parallels fall apart beyond broad geography.

 

I cited an example of history that happened to disprove your assertion. Instead of responding, you're pulling a No True Scotsman counter.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Tagaziel

[Fighter]

Meanwhile in eastern Ukraine not everyone is a fan of Maidan...

 

[obyknven]

Some idiots release elder Vampiress. 

[Tagaziel]

Meanwhile in eastern Ukraine not everyone is a fan of Maidan...

 

Yeah, the split between the east (Russian speaking Ukrainians supporting closer ties to Russia) and the west (Ukrainian speaking Ukrainians supporting closer ties to the EU) may turn into a bigger rift than before. Makes you wonder if a split into West/East Ukraine wouldn't be beneficial to the nation in the long term.

[obyknven]

 

As for retards like Muzyko, they're a part of the demonstrations. The Euromaidan isn't a homogenous, organized terrorist organization, like some claim. It's a mixture of people, from ideologists, to simply pissed-off Ukrainians.

I hear similar things obout  Egypt and Syria.... It's just wrong. Nazi extremists it's only real power who control "Euromaidan". All these pro-West opposition "leaders" have no influence here. And you too slow, today all cool guys against Euromaidan. You must correct your propaganda.

 

 

 

PIC EDITED for 'F' word.

[obyknven]

Euromaidan interrupt Timoschenko speech 3 times. As result microphone has been removed from her, and she sended to GTFO. Yeah, only Nazi leaders control Euromaidan, but stupid Eropean politicans yet don't understand this.

 

Proof

https://twitter.com/euromaidan/status/437314983094124545

[Fighter]

Yanuk is running Windows on a Mac... because of course he does.

 

[Hurlshort]

Wait a sec, were you there fighter?

 

That zoo is crazy.  Nice to see people enjoying it and burning it down or anything crazy.

[Fighter]

Wait a sec, were you there fighter?

 

No. But a bunch of Russian bloggers are there.

 

Here is Berkut police unit from the "Russian" city of Sevastopol returning home. Just to give you guys a flavor of the differences between east and west. Enemies there, heroes here. This may still end badly.

 

"Everyone alive everyone healthy! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!" - the crowd chants.

 

[Zoraptor]

While it was a bit buried, I would recommend everyone with any interest in events to read the interview with Tyanybok (leader of the Ukrainian neo nazi party which is part of the opposition), as it really does give the lie to a lot of what has been said about this being a spontaneous popular uprising rather than a long term plan by those who lost the election to reverse the decision.

 

And I see Tymoshenko is back. Nice to see pro western kleptocrats back centre stage instead of pro russian kleptocrats. Plus ca change...

 

Also, Yanukovych got impeached by the Rada. 328-0.

 

Heh, a result where government members were either absent, or voting under duress and threat of violence gives unanimous result. I'm gobsmacked.

 

Sorry, not going to indulge you any longer. I'm not going to argue with someone who claims gunning down labourers protesting for fair compensation or military subjugation of countries are acceptable, because everything is relative. Mostly because at this point it'd consist of 99% expletives.

 

You'd have fun finding any proof that I'd said that, since all I've said that the same thing would happen, earlier, in the west, and that it was an inevitable consequence of violence within the protesters, and that the day with most deaths was after the day with most police deaths, when the protesters broke a truce. I have no particular wish for anyone on either side to die, not even the fascists among the protesters. Packing up the politicians on both sides and firing them into the sun notwithstanding.

 

Still, as I said in the beginning I knew it would be pretty much impossible to get you to admit anything was wrong, I'm just providing a rebuttal service for anyone who believes your views represent anything other than your particular truth.

[obyknven]

Happy citiezens of Kiev reporting.

http://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnikoberg.livejournal.com%2F161002.html%23cutid1

 

Nice. No police, Chaos, criminals everywhere. I hope someday this freedom go to European houses also.

[obyknven]

Ukrainian rabbi tells Kiev's Jews to flee city
Fearing violence against Ukraine's Jews, the Jewish community asks Israel for assistance with the security of the community.

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/1.575732?v=3C03EC96AC83BCA49B4D0C35AFEC41A3

 

Jews flee from Kiev and Ukraine.  As usual Europeans notice nothing until new Holocaust don't happened.

[Gorgon]

Are they really nazis or is that just you ?

 

Ultranationalist, Facist even. That's not the same thing. 

[Tagaziel]

It's just oby. I wholeheartedly recommend updating your ignore list, I've put two more people on it in this thread and the quality of posts improved immeasurably.