Ukraine burns

[Tagaziel]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26244542

 

The riot police invaded the Euromaidan after the protesters refused to vacate Independence square and the government supporters blocked debates on constitutional changes.

 

I have a friend in Kiev. I hope he's okay.

 

EDIT: He got back to me, he's okay for now.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Tagaziel

[Monte Carlo]

That's good news. I've been watching it on the news. 6 cops and 7 protesters dead. Independence Square looks like a war-zone.

[Gorgon]

6 cops dead ?. Doesn't sound like a one sided affair. There must be armed protesters among them.

[Zoraptor]

Yep. Can only imagine what the response would be if protesters killed a bunch of police in the US/ UK or Europe while trying to topple the democratically elected president, pretty sure it would be slightly different in tone from the US and EU's current pronouncements on the situation.

[Hassat Hunter]

Can't help but see the irony of people fighting and dying to join the EU... while most Europeans in the EU would love to get OUT of the little corrupt ****hole Brussel became.

Of course the politicans don't quite view the viewpoint of the voters, which is why every election the current rulers get massive drops in votes... but with all parties pretty much the same, no change will come anyway.

 

Having said that, it's still horrible.

[Tagaziel]

Yep. Can only imagine what the response would be if protesters killed a bunch of police in the US/ UK or Europe while trying to topple the democratically elected president, pretty sure it would be slightly different in tone from the US and EU's current pronouncements on the situation.

Because Ukraine is totally like the US/UK/other European countries. Yanukovych ****ed Ukrainians over, did an U-turn towards Russia, and half the country is up in arms because they don't like being ****ed with. Euromaidan is not a local anomaly, limited to Kiev. It spans most of western Ukraine.

 

Current death toll is up to 25, including a journalist assassinated by unknown assailants. I find it ironic that the fact Euromaidan revolutionaries fight back instead of taking it up the ass from Yanukovych's goon squads is considered strange around these parts.

 

Can't help but see the irony of people fighting and dying to join the EU... while most Europeans in the EU would love to get OUT of the little corrupt ****hole Brussel became.

Not really. Don't mistake vocal minorities for the majority.

[obyknven]

 

Yep. Can only imagine what the response would be if protesters killed a bunch of police in the US/ UK or Europe while trying to topple the democratically elected president, pretty sure it would be slightly different in tone from the US and EU's current pronouncements on the situation.

Because Ukraine is totally like the US/UK/other European countries. Yanukovych ****ed Ukrainians over, did an U-turn towards Russia, and half the country is up in arms because they don't like being ****ed with. Euromaidan is not a local anomaly, limited to Kiev. It spans most of western Ukraine.

Idiot's. Idiot's never changed.

 

All this conflict around who must rule Ukraine - West Ukrainian mafia (Timoshenko and others) or East Ukrainian mafia (current government). Also some backed by US / EU Western-Ukrainian Nazi groups involved in this ****. People who kill each others on the street's is just brainwashed idiots, cannon folders, they sacrifice own lifes for the prosperity of criminal moneybags. Ukrainians are losing side in this conflict anyway.

[Agiel]

It's a bit presumptuous to say that the Ukrainians are totally blind to the situations in Greece, Spain, Italy, and the like. In spite of that, some of the Ukrainians I've spoken with who support integration with the EU understand that if the deal had gone ahead things would remain bad for a while (if not get worse) before they got better. And those who don't, well, they think making their own path apart from the influence of the Kremlin is an end in and of itself (the type of mentality amongst some Slavic nationalists that "Little Russia should be one with big Russia again" sums up the issue nicely).

[Tagaziel]

It's a bit presumptuous to say that the Ukrainians are totally blind to the situations in Greece, Spain, Italy, and the like. In spite of that, some of the Ukrainians I've spoken with who support integration with the EU understand that if the deal had gone ahead things would remain bad for a while (if not get worse) before they got better. And those who don't, well, they think making their own path apart from the influence of the Kremlin is an end in and of itself (the type of mentality amongst some Slavic nationalists that "Little Russia should be one with big Russia again" sums up the issue nicely).

I'm not saying the European Union is perfect and free of problems, or that the Ukrainians are blind. I'm saying that Ukraine deserves a chance at forging their own way and the EU is their best shot. Being ruled by Russia(ns) didn't quite work out for them in the end.

 

An interesting article about "legitimate" elections I found (reposted from the Eurasian Monitor):

 

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=40108#.UwSESfldUxh

[obyknven]

 

It's a bit presumptuous to say that the Ukrainians are totally blind to the situations in Greece, Spain, Italy, and the like. In spite of that, some of the Ukrainians I've spoken with who support integration with the EU understand that if the deal had gone ahead things would remain bad for a while (if not get worse) before they got better. And those who don't, well, they think making their own path apart from the influence of the Kremlin is an end in and of itself (the type of mentality amongst some Slavic nationalists that "Little Russia should be one with big Russia again" sums up the issue nicely).

I'm not saying the European Union is perfect and free of problems, or that the Ukrainians are blind. I'm saying that Ukraine deserves a chance at forging their own way and the EU is their best shot. Being ruled by Russia(ns) didn't quite work out for them in the end.

 

An interesting article about "legitimate" elections I found (reposted from the Eurasian Monitor):

 

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=40108#.UwSESfldUxh

 

Please stop posting fat russophobic propaganda (even if this is your job here). It's just so stupid: "Ukrainian kill each other because of Niburu Russia".

 

http://youtu.be/G1XS6dINPAs

 

http://youtu.be/BX9Uj28XYpM

[Zoraptor]

For once I agree almost entirely with obyknven. Tymoshenko got into politics for the same basic reason Berlusconi did, to make sure she didn't get prosecuted for corruption in her gas dealings. Yanukovich is neither better nor worse seeing as he is basically Kuchma jr, but at least his deal with the Russians got the Ukraine a lot of cash, better than the pittance Brussels offered. The whole situation is replete with ironies, the protesters are complaining about the constitution giving the president too much power. Oddly enough it was brought in by their previous darling Viktor Yuchenko and only became a problem now it isn't their guy in office.
 

Because Ukraine is totally like the US/UK/other European countries. Yanukovych ****ed Ukrainians over, did an U-turn towards Russia, and half the country is up in arms because they don't like being ****ed with. Euromaidan is not a local anomaly, limited to Kiev. It spans most of western Ukraine.

Yeah, most of western Ukraine. But let's be frank here, Yanukovich got more vote % than, say, Margaret Thatcher ever got (by a very large margin) and won by almost the same margin that Obama beat Romney by. If they have a mandate then so does he. It's much like the situation in Thailand, the minority is throwing a wobbly and trying to impose their views on the majority. I'm frequently told that the right time to dispute decisions is at an election, indeed most western politicos will happily do whatever they want in office no matter what they promised and that's precisely what their defenders will say.
 

Don't mistake vocal minorities for the majority.

Yes. Quite.

[Fighter]

6 cops dead ?. Doesn't sound like a one sided affair. There must be armed protesters among them.

 

There are. Most of the police casualties are reportedly from gunshot wounds. Most likely the work of Ukrainian neo-nationalists.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj8xTfpvzTI

[213374U]

the EU is their best shot.

 

How do you figure that?

[Hassat Hunter]

Because Ukraine is totally like the US/UK/other European countries.

What? Democracy isn't the best thing ever? SHOCKING.

And here all would be better in Iraq, Afghanistan and everywhere in the world, if only there was democracy.

 

And then democratic elected officials are forced to resign like Egypt, Ukraine. Afghanistan and Iraq are worse off ever.

Democracy really is a holy grail, eh?

Not really. Don't mistake vocal minorities for the majority.

Anti-Europe/anti-moslim party is #3 largest party in local politics here, currently ranked highest in the polls for a next election.

That's a pretty big minority there. 

I'm not saying the European Union is perfect and free of problems, or that the Ukrainians are blind. I'm saying that Ukraine deserves a chance at forging their own way and the EU is their best shot. Being ruled by Russia(ns) didn't quite work out for them in the end.

And European dictatorship will?

It's like fighting one evil to join another. No-one wins.

 

Nor am I really sure the EU would even want Ukraine in it's current state. The economy is fragile as is without adding more and more economically defunct countries to the mix.

Oh heck, what am I saying actually they do that just fine. We didn't recently have to bail Italy, Spain, Ireland, Greece. We can do more... :/

[BruceVC]

 

the EU is their best shot.

 

How do you figure that?

 

 

Well why would you want to form an economic union with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan when you could align yourself with the EU. The EU is a much better investment, its a no brainer in my books. What are we missing in your opinion?

[Tagaziel]

For once I agree almost entirely with obyknven. Tymoshenko got into politics for the same basic reason Berlusconi did, to make sure she didn't get prosecuted for corruption in her gas dealings. Yanukovich is neither better nor worse seeing as he is basically Kuchma jr, but at least his deal with the Russians got the Ukraine a lot of cash, better than the pittance Brussels offered. The whole situation is replete with ironies, the protesters are complaining about the constitution giving the president too much power. Oddly enough it was brought in by their previous darling Viktor Yuchenko and only became a problem now it isn't their guy in office.

So you judge options entirely on the basis of how much money is up for grabs, am I reading that correctly? Yanukovych was acting in the best interests of himself and his clique, not the Ukrainians. As pointed out in this thread, the support for the association with the EU was not blind, Ukrainians knew what would happen.

 

Yeah, most of western Ukraine. But let's be frank here, Yanukovich got more vote % than, say, Margaret Thatcher ever got (by a very large margin) and won by almost the same margin that Obama beat Romney by. If they have a mandate then so does he. It's much like the situation in Thailand, the minority is throwing a wobbly and trying to impose their views on the majority. I'm frequently told that the right time to dispute decisions is at an election, indeed most western politicos will happily do whatever they want in office no matter what they promised and that's precisely what their defenders will say.

Did you even read the link I provided or are you really believing that Yanukovych and his party won in perfectly fair elections that accurately represented his support throughout Ukraine? And are you really dismissing the entire Euromaidan as a "vocal minority"?

 

Furthermore, Euromaidan is three months old now. It started back in November, when Yanukovych did an U-turn and until Yanukovych initiated hostilities, it was a peaceful, democratic protest of disgruntled citizens. Disputing decisions at the election works in functioning democracies. Ukraine was turned by Yanukovych and his clique into a parody, the U-turn being a fine example of how he ignores the interests of Ukraine in favor of his own.

 

What? Democracy isn't the best thing ever? SHOCKING.

And here all would be better in Iraq, Afghanistan and everywhere in the world, if only there was democracy.

 

And then democratic elected officials are forced to resign like Egypt, Ukraine. Afghanistan and Iraq are worse off ever.

Democracy really is a holy grail, eh?

Putting Ukraine next to Egypt, Afghanistan, and Iraq is the best counter to your entire argument. And you wrote it yourself.

 

Anti-Europe/anti-moslim party is #3 largest party in local politics here, currently ranked highest in the polls for a next election.

That's a pretty big minority there.

Still a minority, still third largest. The position doesn't mean much either, as, for example, in Poland the third largest political party in the parliament is less than ten percent of the two largest parties combined.

 

And European dictatorship will?

It's like fighting one evil to join another. No-one wins.

Oh look, another hip "European Union is A DICTATORSHIP" hater.

 

Nor am I really sure the EU would even want Ukraine in it's current state. The economy is fragile as is without adding more and more economically defunct countries to the mix.

Oh heck, what am I saying actually they do that just fine. We didn't recently have to bail Italy, Spain, Ireland, Greece. We can do more... :/

It's an association agreement that can result in membership in the EU eventually. Not membership in the EU. Your claim that the EU is a dictatorship was a clue that you don't really have much knowledge about the subject you talk about.

 

Well why would you want to form an economic union with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan when you could align yourself with the EU. The EU is a much better investment, its a no brainer in my books. What are we missing in your opinion?

The biggest economy in the world is not an obvious choice, apparently.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Tagaziel

[213374U]

Well why would you want to form an economic union with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan when you could align yourself with the EU. The EU is a much better investment, its a no brainer in my books. What are we missing in your opinion?

 

A much better investment? For whom? The Germans? Some elite in Ukraine? I'm a bit tired of hearing all these buzz words and given assumptions thrown around when this sort of topic turns up. It's meaningless and repeating it over and over serves no purpose other than, perhaps, achieving the relaxing and mind-numbing effect that mantras have.

 

And why must it be either Russia or the EU? You'd think the Ukrainians would be a bit more reluctant to give up their sovereignty again so shortly after reclaiming it.

 

 

 

The biggest economy in the world is not an obvious choice, apparently.

 

If it's such an obvious choice, why don't you dial back on the snark and explain why? Should be easy right?

 

edit: herp derp

Edited February 19, 2014 by 213374U

[BruceVC]

 

Well why would you want to form an economic union with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan when you could align yourself with the EU. The EU is a much better investment, its a no brainer in my books. What are we missing in your opinion?

 

A much better investment? For whom? The Germans? Some elite in Ukraine? I'm a bit tired of hearing all these buzz words and given assumptions thrown around when this sort of topic turns up. It's meaningless and repeating it over and over serves no purpose other than, perhaps, achieving the relaxing and mind-numbing effect that mantras have.

 

And why must it be either Russia or the EU? You'd think the Ukrainians would be a bit more reluctant to give up their sovereignty again so shortly after reclaiming it.

 

 

 

The biggest economy in the world is not an obvious choice, apparently.

 

If it's such an obvious choice, why don't you dial back on the snark and explain why? Should be easy right?

 

edit: herp derp

 

I want to ask you a simple question so I can understand your perspective.

 

If language wasn't a problem and you could choose between living in Russia ( or Belarus or Kazakhstan) and a country in the EU where would you choose? So basically this boils down to factors like the social conditions and where you feel most comfortable. Please don't provide any information expect for what's relevant to the question, we can get to everything else later.

 

Anybody else can also respond to this question if they are interested

[Hassat Hunter]

@ Tagaziel;

I was merely talking about all countries where the magical tool of democracy fail horribly. In that light, yes, all those countries relate. Do tell me how it voids my call to say democracy ain't everything by giving several examples where it fails... quite horribly. Well?

 

As for the "3rd party is small"; Not here in the Netherlands. As said, the anti-muslim/anti-europe party does pretty well... since most people really start to hate both parties.

EDIT: Looked at the most recent polls, and it's predicting they will be the biggest if there were current elections. Such a minority!

 

Also, let's give a demonstration of "EU democracy" for you;

* There was a vote for an European constitution, giving away many rights away to the EU.

* Citizens voted NO.

* Politicans interpretated that as "we have no clue what we're talking about" and decided to hand over the things we voted no for to the EU anyway.

* So if I can't call that 'dictatorship', how exactly *am* I supposed to address it?

 

The biggest economy in the world is not an obvious choice, apparently.

And here I was thinking the biggest economy in the world (US) had almost defaulted recently. And the EU isn't doing that great either. A big economy wont help much if it can't keep itself surviable, let stand other economies... Edited February 19, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[213374U]

 

 

Well why would you want to form an economic union with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan when you could align yourself with the EU. The EU is a much better investment, its a no brainer in my books. What are we missing in your opinion?

 

A much better investment? For whom? The Germans? Some elite in Ukraine? I'm a bit tired of hearing all these buzz words and given assumptions thrown around when this sort of topic turns up. It's meaningless and repeating it over and over serves no purpose other than, perhaps, achieving the relaxing and mind-numbing effect that mantras have.

 

And why must it be either Russia or the EU? You'd think the Ukrainians would be a bit more reluctant to give up their sovereignty again so shortly after reclaiming it.

 

 

 

The biggest economy in the world is not an obvious choice, apparently.

 

If it's such an obvious choice, why don't you dial back on the snark and explain why? Should be easy right?

 

edit: herp derp

 

I want to ask you a simple question so I can understand your perspective.

 

If language wasn't a problem and you could choose between living in Russia ( or Belarus or Kazakhstan) and a country in the EU where would you choose? So basically this boils down to factors like the social conditions and where you feel most comfortable. Please don't provide any information expect for what's relevant to the question, we can get to everything else later.

 

Anybody else can also respond to this question if they are interested

 

 

Can I choose "neither"? If not, can I choose which EU country in particular?

 

This question also seems to imply that joining the EU is magically going to turn Ukraine into, say, the Netherlands. If only it worked that way...

 

Also, not having been to Russia, I feel I lack necessary judgment elements. Maybe I'd like Russian women better, or maybe I'd hate -50º C winters. Why is this relevant, again?

[obyknven]

 

I want to ask you a simple question so I can understand your perspective.

 

 

If language wasn't a problem and you could choose between living in Russia ( or Belarus or Kazakhstan) and a country in the EU where would you choose? So basically this boils down to factors like the social conditions and where you feel most comfortable. Please don't provide any information expect for what's relevant to the question, we can get to everything else later.

 

Anybody else can also respond to this question if they are interested

 

Russia obviously. Don't want be a subhuman gastarbeiter in EU.  My friend leave EU because ethnic discrimination by Europeans, don't want repeat his mistakes.

[Cultist]

It always amused me how people think that the next morning they join the EU magical EU fairies will fix all that is bad and replace it with all that is good. And also provide free food.

The end is, sadly, the same: "Germany, pay off our debts! You owe us - you invaded us in [insert number] century!"

[Tagaziel]

If it's such an obvious choice, why don't you dial back on the snark and explain why? Should be easy right?

Because the alternative is being a satellite of the Russian Federation, a country which has a notoriously bad track record when it comes to Ukraine? Which, in practice, considers it a breakaway province (and that was the theme of the media campaign after Ukraine declared independence in 1991)? Which has a bad human rights record? And finally, because the people support it?

 

@ Tagaziel;

I was merely talking about all countries where the magical tool of democracy fail horribly. In that light, yes, all those countries relate. Do tell me how it voids my call to say democracy ain't everything by giving several examples where it fails... quite horribly. Well?

Because you argument is a ridiculous oversimplification of the unique national situations in which the democracy the failed. There is no common ground between Ukraine and Egypt, Iraq, or Afghanistan, starting with the ethic background, through historical experiences, society, to religion.

 

As for the "3rd party is small"; Not here in the Netherlands. As said, the anti-muslim/anti-europe party does pretty well... since most people really start to hate both parties.

EDIT: Looked at the most recent polls, and it's predicting they will be the biggest if there were current elections. Such a minority!

Fortune telling election results is rich.

 

Also, let's give a demonstration of "EU democracy" for you;

* There was a vote for an European constitution, giving away many rights away to the EU.

Which rights? Can you enumerate them?

 

* Citizens voted NO.

* Politicans interpretated that as "we have no clue what we're talking about" and decided to hand over the things we voted no for to the EU anyway.

* So if I can't call that 'dictatorship', how exactly *am* I supposed to address it?

Maybe first by doing your research? The Constitution unified existing European treaties and served to simplify and strengthen the Union. The fact that it failed, but many changes were later implemented in the Treaty of Lisbon is not indicative of diktat, but that naming it as a Constitution triggered rabid nationalist sentiments that apparently prevented people from actually reading the thing and allowed populists catering to the lowest instincts of the masses to gain influence.

 

Furthermore, the Constitution and the Treaty of Lisbon introduced changes to make the Union more fair, balanced, and democratic. But don't let facts get in the way of your tangent.

 

And here I was thinking the biggest economy in the world (US) had almost defaulted recently. And the EU isn't doing that great either. A big economy wont help much if it can't keep itself surviable, let stand other economies...

Oh, the EU is doing pretty fine and is on track to recovery. Check your facts. It remains the world's largest economy, estimated at between 400-800 million USD bigger than the United States.

 

It always amused me how people think that the next morning they join the EU magical EU fairies will fix all that is bad and replace it with all that is good. And also provide free food.

The end is, sadly, the same: "Germany, pay off our debts! You owe us - you invaded us in [insert number] century!"

They don't?

 

Russia obviously. Don't want be a subhuman gastarbeiter in EU.  My friend leave EU because ethnic discrimination by Europeans, don't want repeat his mistakes.

Your constant railing against the EU reminds me of North Korea's rabid propaganda against the U.S. Or the worst Stalinist propaganda.

 

 

It's pointless arguing with a Keith Pellig, though.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Tagaziel

[Hassat Hunter]

Because you argument is a ridiculous oversimplification of the unique national situations in which the democracy the failed. There is no common ground between Ukraine and Egypt, Iraq, or Afghanistan, starting with the ethic background, through historical experiences, society, to religion.

Yet, the US and many European nations think that Democracy would be the best way for all those countries to be ruled, and democracy by itself is the best political system ever. Completely glossing over all that you mention, and with horrible failures as a result.

I don't disagree it's overly simplified. That was my entire point I was trying to make anyway. That mentality of "democracy is the only way for a country to be ruled, there's nothing better, and there's nothing wrong with it."

Fortune telling election results is rich.

They do these things called "polls". I think you know what those are right?

Which rights? Can you enumerate them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

Feel free to read up.

Also, "constitution."

One binding ruleset for all European countries, even if there's a wide difference between them like Germany or Spain. And as shown upholding certain rules already set (max. of spending 3% more than the income of a country) has already wreaked havoc on some, and has been excluded in a wide number of cases.

Maybe first by doing your research? The Constitution unified existing European treaties and served to simplify and strengthen the Union. The fact that it failed, but many changes were later implemented in the Treaty of Lisbon is not indicative of diktat, but that naming it as a Constitution triggered rabid nationalist sentiments that apparently prevented people from actually reading the thing and allowed populists catering to the lowest instincts of the masses to gain influence.

Way to go there.

"People voted no due to populism, they had no idea what they were doing"

They put it through regardless of their populance, *because these simpletons didn't understand*

What are democracy and dictatorship again?

 

"People want the EU trade rather than Russia interference"

The government of Ukraine decided not to, despite their populance, *because these simpletons didn't understand*

And even though Tagaziel just said that's perfectly fine for an EU to do, those damn Ukrainians are just under dictorship.

 

Point of view and all...

Furthermore, the Constitution and the Treaty of Lisbon introduced changes to make the Union more fair, balanced, and democratic. But don't let facts get in the way of your tangent.

That's why Germany is the most powerful and sets most of the rules and pressure, right?

Oh, the EU is doing pretty fine and is on track to recovery. Check your facts. It remains the world's largest economy, estimated at between 400-800 million USD bigger than the United States.

Oh yeah, they say that here too, economy is on the rise again, 1% increase in economy.

What do you say, in the meanwhile unemployement will rise 5% too, and the inflation will rise more than than the pays, reducing the actual money people can spend?

Well, as long as there's some progress, who cares about people, right?

It's not like the unemployed cost the state money, which will cause more drastic savings by the government, which will again impact the economy.

No, I don't think we're out there despite that "the economy grew!"

Your constant railing against the EU reminds me of North Korea's rabid propaganda against the U.S. Or the worst Stalinist propaganda.

Cause no-one can hate the EU (of which I am a citizen of btw) but Stalinists, Commies and North-Koreans.

That's some Cold War mentiality there man.

 

EDIT:

I guess I am just wondering why you're against the Ukrainien government, and then go and say that an EU-decision, which was made in the exact same manner (let's ignore the people) is a good thing. Wouldn't you support the Ukranien government then too?

I'm against both obviously... but I'm not the one saying "The EU just did what the hell they wanted anyway, but is not a dictatorship, if you hate the EU you're North-Korean"...

Edited February 19, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[Tagaziel]

Yet, the US and many European nations think that Democracy would be the best way for all those countries to be ruled, and democracy by itself is the best political system ever. Completely glossing over all that you mention, and with horrible failures as a result.

I don't disagree it's overly simplified. That was my entire point I was trying to make anyway. That mentality of "democracy is the only way for a country to be ruled, there's nothing better, and there's nothing wrong with it."

The problem is that Ukraine is not in a part of the world where democracy has consistently failed in most cases. Unless you think Ukrainians are some sort of untermenschen incapable of self-governance, there's no reason why democracy should not be upheld in Ukraine.

 

They do these things called "polls". I think you know what those are right?

Yes, fortune telling. They're useful at giving a very rough idea of how the sympathies are divided, but due to very small samples (representative my ass) they're essentially fortune telling when it comes to election results.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

 

Feel free to read up.

You do realize that has nothing to do with the contents of the treaty? The article even points out that a significant portion of the opponents voted against not Europe, but the government of Netherlands they disagreed with?

 

Also, "constitution."

One binding ruleset for all European countries, even if there's a wide difference between them like Germany or Spain. And as shown upholding certain rules already set (max. of spending 3% more than the income of a country) has already wreaked havoc on some, and has been excluded in a wide number of cases.

Nope. Did you actually do even the tiniest sliver of research on what the Treaty actually contained? Or do you go by what you feel "Constitution" means? Because what you just posted is not what the Constitution was about.

 

 

Way to go there.

"People voted no due to populism, they had no idea what they were doing"

They put it through regardless of their populance, *because these simpletons didn't understand*

What are democracy and dictatorship again?

 

"People want the EU trade rather than Russia interference"

The government of Ukraine decided not to, despite their populance, *because these simpletons didn't understand*

And even though Tagaziel just said that's perfectly fine for an EU to do, those damn Ukrainians are just under dictorship.

Oh right, I remember EU goons stealing referendum ballot boxes, breaking up peaceful protests, kidnapping and torturing dissidents, shooting protesters, and serving a small clique of oligarch.

 

Oh wait, that's Ukraine right now.

 

 

 

 

That's why Germany is the most powerful and sets most of the rules and pressure, right?

 

 

 

Ah, that's the core issue: Jealousy. Netherlands isn't as populous, big, or influential as Germany, so THOSE DAMN KRAUTS CONTROL EVERYTHING.

 

 

 

 

Why is the world so unfair, why can't everything be fixed at the flick of a magic wand, why does recovery take time, why do I insist on using oversimplifications instead of looking up figures

 

 

 

There, fixed that for you.

 

 

 

 

Cause no-one can hate the EU (of which I am a citizen of btw) but Stalinists, Commies and North-Koreans.

That's some Cold War mentiality there man.

 

 

 

Hate? Nah, that was a parody of oby's way of thinking.

 

 

 

 

EDIT:

I guess I am just wondering why you're against the Ukrainien government, and then go and say that an EU-decision, which was made in the exact same manner (let's ignore the people) is a good thing. Wouldn't you support the Ukranien government then too?

I'm against both obviously... but I'm not the one saying "The EU just did what the hell they wanted anyway, but is not a dictatorship, if you hate the EU you're North-Korean"...

 

 

 

No, it wasn't made in the exact same way. The Treaty of Lisbon was ratified by each of the national parliaments and implemented with the full consent of each nation's representatives, and had completely different goals than Yanukovych's unilateral decision motivated by personal gain.

 

If you can't see the difference between the EU and Ukraine, there's nothing I can do to help you.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Tagaziel