Zoraptor Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 One thing I was thinking about on the way home today: can anyone think of a situation where a "good troll" had fundamentally different world view on yourself (open question, not just to Zoraptor)? To tie this back in with you, Zor, I am curious if there's a degree of identifying someone as a "good troll" because their actions are in alignment with what you think is ultimately a productive thing. Well yeah, I would categorise a good troll as being a productive thing. It doesn't have to be productive in terms of making people think or reconsider stuff, it can be productive in terms of simply thinking it's funny. In terms of having a different world view, that's rather more difficult to quantify because with a good troll you're often not quite sure exactly what the person's view is. In that sense it is very similar to satire/ irony/ sarcasm in that it's a technique used to show 'disagreement' without necessarily indicating an alternative. I have seen trolling which runs counter to my general beliefs and still thought that it is effective, but then I'm not usually a good target for trolling myself since I at least try not to take things too seriously already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Can you point me to one? Simply for reference. It's come up in this thread in other places regarding a "good troll" but in all honesty, I'm not sure I agree there is such a thing as a good troll. A quick google search for the term "trolling" mostly comes up with actions that are done specifically to provoke a anger and frustrate others while seeking for a response. I posted the Leeroy Jenkins troll. It was a troll thread on the WoW boards which nobody can deny. And it's not satire. That's an example of a good troll. A quick google search by me came up with a lot of great examples. It depends on what you're searching for. I thought I would go with one of the most famous that most people would know. At its core trolling is trying to get a response, regardless of what that response is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Although, with that context does it just mean that different actions may be considered trolling based upon that context? If so, it may still be definable if we isolate things like intentions and goals, for example. Though I'm just musing at this point. Yes, as far as finding a definition that is consistently applicable to trolling goes, sticking to intent alone is probably a good idea. The intent generally being to piss off as many people as possible with the least amount of effort, yes? But if we take that approach, you can only have people who troll on occasion as opposed to people who are trolls, because nobody has the same goals in all situations, under all circumstances. "Stupid is as stupid does"? Yeah... not really. I'm a bit hesitant to give a troll credit because other posters prove to be reasonable human beings. I think it understates the contributions of quality posters. To Godwin the thread, it sounds like it could be a bit like suggesting maybe Hitler had a net positive because after all, after the second World War perhaps the world was in a better place than it was going in! Personal preferences not withstanding Though speaking of, a poster like LoF is precisely what I prefer to avoid on the internet. It's not something I see as a particularly creative or insightful way to promote discussion, personally. Though I'll agree that he was probably one of the few people that were likely "genuine trolls" rather than just posters that I feel can be antagonistic in providing their perspectives on topics. Reflecting on my time here, there's probably only maybe 2 or 3 posters that I'd be reasonably comfortable suggesting "that poster posts mostly to just get a rise out of people that read his posts." But as you say, personal preferences. I don't find it very difficult to find perspectives on the internet that I can be all smug and point at laugh about. I think trolls also run a risk because well, if they occasionally have something meaningful to contribute, you run the risk of simply being ignore due to past behaviour. Well, a community is only as good as its members, that's pretty much a given, but you are right—I may have underplayed the role other posters had in lof's threads. However, the choice of topics and rebuttals as well as just the right dose of sarcasm (and over the top humor) made his threads irresistible for many to participate in, so he was undeniably good at it. Whether "it" was trolling or genuinely attempting to engage in historic and socioeconomic discussions is up for debate, however. And while maybe the world is a better place after Hitler, it's difficult to establish what the world would be like if he had never been and commies had taken over in Germany in the 1930's—a distinct possibility. Also, and I believe this is the key difference, the mere act of engaging others in conversation frames them as equals (albeit tacitly), while the opposite was not merely prevalent in Hitler's policy but arguably the cornerstone of his thought in the form of untermenschen. I know you were more or less tongue-in-cheek with the reference, but it's this distinction what allows me to consider that contributions form one user, regardless of general opinion among the community on the poster himself, and despite the user's own intent, can be positive overall. And yes, I agree that there's definitely the risk of alienating your audience if your trolling becomes too repetitive or uninteresting (or obvious, for that matter). - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Well yeah, I would categorise a good troll as being a productive thing. It doesn't have to be productive in terms of making people think or reconsider stuff, it can be productive in terms of simply thinking it's funny. In terms of having a different world view, that's rather more difficult to quantify because with a good troll you're often not quite sure exactly what the person's view is. In that sense it is very similar to satire/ irony/ sarcasm in that it's a technique used to show 'disagreement' without necessarily indicating an alternative. I have seen trolling which runs counter to my general beliefs and still thought that it is effective, but then I'm not usually a good target for trolling myself since I at least try not to take things too seriously already. The funny aspect is where I was more going with this. Part of me is curious if people will justify that trolling is necessary in their own minds because it'll show people to not take things too seriously or whatever, while for the most part it's just a situation of "I found it funny, therefore I'm okay with some of it." Humour is innately aggressive and often people are the butt ends of the joke, and the ability to laugh at oneself will make those types of situations more bearable (or even humourous). But I'm sure we've all laughed at the person "trolling" that perspective we disagree with. How often do we laugh and agree with the troll that makes fun of the perspective that we do agree with? Is it just a sense of satisfaction of "aha, that guy with opinion I don't like totally got what was coming to him!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Alan, you were asking for an example of a good troll and since I posted a good troll with Leeroy Jenkins, do you now accept that there are good trolls? because you seem to be still evasive and haven't answered my posts or questions about there being a good troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillabender Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Well yeah, I would categorise a good troll as being a productive thing. It doesn't have to be productive in terms of making people think or reconsider stuff, it can be productive in terms of simply thinking it's funny. In terms of having a different world view, that's rather more difficult to quantify because with a good troll you're often not quite sure exactly what the person's view is. In that sense it is very similar to satire/ irony/ sarcasm in that it's a technique used to show 'disagreement' without necessarily indicating an alternative. I have seen trolling which runs counter to my general beliefs and still thought that it is effective, but then I'm not usually a good target for trolling myself since I at least try not to take things too seriously already. I think I get where you're coming from now. If I'm understanding you correctly, when you defend "good trolling," you're not so much defending silliness for the sake of silliness (because most people tend to accept silliness for the sake of silliness as harmless), but more defending the idea of being a little bit provoking (without going overboard) for the sake of being entertaining or making a point. You seem to be using "trolling" to mean being irreverent and provoking with a degree of deception involved, where "good trolling" involves being a little bit provoking and sneaky in a clever way that doesn't cross a line. I guess where I see things a little bit differently is that I tend not to like the idea of deliberately baiting someone in the context of a debate, even in a subtle way, and I think it really does come down at that point to personal preferences and what kind of behaviour we can tolerate. If I'm going to debate with someone, I want the other person to own and take responsibility for what they genuinely think, and I try to do the same. If someone is going to take on the role of devil's advocate, I prefer for them to be upfront that they are putting forward a position that they don't necessarily agree with for the sake of bringing another idea into the discussion. That said, it's fine with me if a person uses humour to convey that they are being a devil's advocate – so long as they make it clear that is what they are doing. In short, If I sense that someone's goal is to keep me guessing about what their position is, it's more likely to make me think the person is being immature rather than clever. I can shrug at that kind of thing when I encounter it in a discussion about something relatively inconsequential, but if it's a discussion about an issue that has a serious impact on people, my tolerance for that kind of thing is very, very low. At that point, if I laugh at someone who is being deliberately insincere in order to needle people, it's because I'm laughing at the ridiculous side of the situation to keep myself from getting angry – not because I think the person is actually being funny or clever. A well-thought-out satire that's subtle enough to be mistaken for the real thing with is another matter – that's something that I can appreciate if it's done well. I see good satire differently from what I've described above because it generally tends to be upfront about what its target is (although it may mock more than one position at the same time) – even if the joke is subtle and the mockery is targeted partly at those who might not recognize the punch line, the intention is still, for the most part, that the audience will (eventually) be in on the joke. (Thank you, by the way – I've really enjoyed your posts in this discussion, and it's given me a lot to think about ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mor Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I think I get where you're coming from now. If I'm understanding you correctly, when you defend "good trolling," you're not so much defending silliness for the sake of silliness ...IMO they are coming from a place like RPGCodex where "trolling" has its own definition and meme where it is both acceptable and encouraged, and they got butt hurt that outside "trolls" are seen as horrible people or according to this study psychopathic sadist. It like arguing about what is "cool", you will always upset several niche communities. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The avarage RPGCodex troll is so edgy that they are practically round. 2 "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Not really seen much trolling there, just people openly attacking one another now and then. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 That's because they put the trolling threads into their 'Retardo-land' sub-forum. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Ahh ok, never really ventured there. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I think I get where you're coming from now. If I'm understanding you correctly, when you defend "good trolling," you're not so much defending silliness for the sake of silliness ...IMO they are coming from a place like RPGCodex where "trolling" has its own definition and meme where it is both acceptable and encouraged, and they got butt hurt that outside "trolls" are seen as horrible people or according to this study psychopathic sadist. It like arguing about what is "cool", you will always upset several niche communities. RPGCodex, hah, softy noveaux trollites who can't stand the heat and need to get out of the kitchen whenever there is some real discuss!on that isn't scaled to their level. Usenet, bro, where trolls were trolls and moderation wasn't in the dictionary. Well, except in moderated groups, of course. (Yeah, some trolls are horrible people. Some people are horrible people. It's sheer inevitability) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillabender Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I think I get where you're coming from now. If I'm understanding you correctly, when you defend "good trolling," you're not so much defending silliness for the sake of silliness ...IMO they are coming from a place like RPGCodex where "trolling" has its own definition and meme where it is both acceptable and encouraged, and they got butt hurt that outside "trolls" are seen as horrible people or according to this study psychopathic sadist. It like arguing about what is "cool", you will always upset several niche communities. I don't think most of the people who have been defending the idea of "good trolling" in this particular thread have been overly defensive about it – while I may not see things quite the same way that some other people do, I think there have been some thought-provoking points made, and I do think that questions like "is it ever okay to deliberately provoke people?" or "why is it that we can tolerate snark in some contexts, but not others?" are genuinely worthy of reflection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) Being mendacious isn't trolling. Having an identity which derives core value from upsetting people is trolling. Equating that with being a worthless c*** is a value judgement, but I'm comfortable calling it. Edited February 21, 2014 by Walsingham 2 "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 "is it ever okay to deliberately provoke people?". Yes, always. If there's one thing I've learned online is that people take things and themselves far, far too seriously, so it can be fun to find the right button to push. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Couldn't it be construed, then, that you're taking things too seriously if you've decided to be an arbiter of who deserves and does not deserve to be deliberately provoked? Doesn't the mere acknowledgement of "that person is taking things too seriously" mean that you also are? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Couldn't it be construed, then, that you're taking things too seriously if you've decided to be an arbiter of who deserves and does not deserve to be deliberately provoked? Doesn't the mere acknowledgement of "that person is taking things too seriously" mean that you also are? I love the logic of some of your comments and insight, its irrefutable. Certain people must hate debating with you "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManifestedISO Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Couldn't it be construed, then, that you're taking things too seriously if you've decided to be an arbiter of who deserves and does not deserve to be deliberately provoked? Doesn't the mere acknowledgement of "that person is taking things too seriously" mean that you also are? I love the logic of some of your comments and insight, its irrefutable. Certain people must hate debating with you I'm still hung up on how many L's are in his name. I see two. Sometimes one. C'mon, which is it. 1 All Stop. On Screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I think I get where you're coming from now. If I'm understanding you correctly, when you defend "good trolling," you're not so much defending silliness for the sake of silliness ...IMO they are coming from a place like RPGCodex where "trolling" has its own definition and meme where it is both acceptable and encouraged, and they got butt hurt that outside "trolls" are seen as horrible people or according to this study psychopathic sadist. It like arguing about what is "cool", you will always upset several niche communities. RPGCodex, hah, softy noveaux trollites who can't stand the heat and need to get out of the kitchen whenever there is some real discuss!on that isn't scaled to their level. Usenet, bro, where trolls were trolls and moderation wasn't in the dictionary. Well, except in moderated groups, of course. (Yeah, some trolls are horrible people. Some people are horrible people. It's sheer inevitability) They should make me a Moderator of RPGCodex, half the members would be immediately banned and most of the other members would be on there last warning. " I'll bring order and respect to that cesspool of Internet forum social injustice" "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Couldn't it be construed, then, that you're taking things too seriously if you've decided to be an arbiter of who deserves and does not deserve to be deliberately provoked? Doesn't the mere acknowledgement of "that person is taking things too seriously" mean that you also are? I love the logic of some of your comments and insight, its irrefutable. Certain people must hate debating with you I'm still hung up on how many L's are in his name. I see two. Sometimes one. C'mon, which is it. its 3 isn't it ? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I think I get where you're coming from now. If I'm understanding you correctly, when you defend "good trolling," you're not so much defending silliness for the sake of silliness ...IMO they are coming from a place like RPGCodex where "trolling" has its own definition and meme where it is both acceptable and encouraged, and they got butt hurt that outside "trolls" are seen as horrible people or according to this study psychopathic sadist. It like arguing about what is "cool", you will always upset several niche communities. RPGCodex, hah, softy noveaux trollites who can't stand the heat and need to get out of the kitchen whenever there is some real discuss!on that isn't scaled to their level. Usenet, bro, where trolls were trolls and moderation wasn't in the dictionary. Well, except in moderated groups, of course. (Yeah, some trolls are horrible people. Some people are horrible people. It's sheer inevitability) They should make me a Moderator of RPGCodex, half the members would be immediately banned and most of the other members would be on there last warning. " I'll bring order and respect to that cesspool of Internet forum social injustice" 1 "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I think I get where you're coming from now. If I'm understanding you correctly, when you defend "good trolling," you're not so much defending silliness for the sake of silliness ...IMO they are coming from a place like RPGCodex where "trolling" has its own definition and meme where it is both acceptable and encouraged, and they got butt hurt that outside "trolls" are seen as horrible people or according to this study psychopathic sadist. It like arguing about what is "cool", you will always upset several niche communities. RPGCodex, hah, softy noveaux trollites who can't stand the heat and need to get out of the kitchen whenever there is some real discuss!on that isn't scaled to their level. Usenet, bro, where trolls were trolls and moderation wasn't in the dictionary. Well, except in moderated groups, of course. (Yeah, some trolls are horrible people. Some people are horrible people. It's sheer inevitability) They should make me a Moderator of RPGCodex, half the members would be immediately banned and most of the other members would be on there last warning. " I'll bring order and respect to that cesspool of Internet forum social injustice" Why do you hate free speech so much? 1 "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I think I get where you're coming from now. If I'm understanding you correctly, when you defend "good trolling," you're not so much defending silliness for the sake of silliness ...IMO they are coming from a place like RPGCodex where "trolling" has its own definition and meme where it is both acceptable and encouraged, and they got butt hurt that outside "trolls" are seen as horrible people or according to this study psychopathic sadist. It like arguing about what is "cool", you will always upset several niche communities. RPGCodex, hah, softy noveaux trollites who can't stand the heat and need to get out of the kitchen whenever there is some real discuss!on that isn't scaled to their level. Usenet, bro, where trolls were trolls and moderation wasn't in the dictionary. Well, except in moderated groups, of course. (Yeah, some trolls are horrible people. Some people are horrible people. It's sheer inevitability) They should make me a Moderator of RPGCodex, half the members would be immediately banned and most of the other members would be on there last warning. " I'll bring order and respect to that cesspool of Internet forum social injustice" Why do you hate free speech so much? I don't hate free speech, I welcome and encourage free speech. I am opposed to speech that is synonymous with discrimination or bigotry. In the South African constitution we allow free speech but not if it infringes on the dignity of the person. Its not an unreasonable expectation "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonek Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) Strange, i've been insulted and verbally abused but have never once felt that those words infringed on my dignity, nor have I ever wanted to censor the people who spout such profanities. A small smile and a wink are the only acknowledgement I give them, and I prefer such open exchanges, rather than unspoken hate festering inside, suppressed by what one version of society deems appropriate. Speak as I speak, do as I do, think as I think has never been anything but a distasteful instruction to me, especially considering those who have used it previously. Edit: One has been perusing the Codex and the gentlemen there have some truly great news and editorial articles, the benefit of being largely unmoderated and not parroting popular tropes, as I see it there is always a need for a counter cultural voice and though raucous I believe there are gems hidden in that squalor. I do not obviously agree with much of what's said but I would defend their right to say it. Edited February 22, 2014 by Nonek 1 Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin. Tea for the teapot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Couldn't it be construed, then, that you're taking things too seriously if you've decided to be an arbiter of who deserves and does not deserve to be deliberately provoked? If you do it regularly then you're most definitely self important, and need a good trolling to iron out the hypocrite. Then you may get the ultimate situation, two people who think the other is taking something too seriously but are simultaneously trolling each other, unaware. Perfection. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.jpg.ce846aae50e732dc4985eb712252381f.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now