The Case for Romance.

[BruceVC]

 

I have not seen the Tali Sweat thread actually. At any rate I was discussing those biological points because they do play a large part of why people play video games or really do anything. Sure it might have been a little far to go that much into it but both businesses and game companies will use psychology in some form to develop games. Conscious or not. Not taking human behavior and reactions into account when making a horror game such as Dead Space would be quite different if you did not look into what makes humans fear things. Same thing can be said with romance or thriller games. People just over-reacted to the analysis and took it the wrong way it seems. 

 

Then behold, because it can be found here. Enjoy your read.

 

You may have noticed that the conclusion of that analysis was to say that Tali's sweat was pleasant and aphrodisiac and just plain better than that of humans. Basically, the post used SCIENCE™ to prove Why Tali Is A Better Waifu Than The Rest, in a context of fans talking and gushing about her character, which is why that post has become infamous and an example of lonely Bioware fans that have crossed the line into creepy obsessiveness. And now you come here and try to use SCIENCE™ to put having romances as a good thing, which is why the comparisons started coming up.

 

Look, I can understand your desire to let it out and write about your feelings about this topic, because as time has shown people have a lot of strong and very different feelings about it. But you have to be mindful about what you're saying and where. You say that people over-reacted to your analysis and took it the wrong way. I say that what happened is because of your analysis itself, as it is faulty and misplaced. It's faulty because it's incomplete and biased, as Hiro Protagonist II pointed out, and i'ts misplaced because you put it in a forum where people just don't want to talk about this topic anymore. That is why you got that reaction. Hopefully it's clearer now.

 

 

That link is nothing but anti-romance propaganda. Its typically used by people to raise how depraved BSN is, but it misrepresents the facts.

 

Firstly there are hundreds of posts a day on BSN that are nothing as extreme as that and secondly there are many people on BSN who wouldn't make a post like that but they are supporters of Romance. So you can't use a post like that as a reason that Romance won't work in any RPG, its an unfair comparison to use an extreme view as if that's normal for your average promancer

[Lurky]

That link is nothing but anti-romance propaganda. Its typically used by people to raise how depraved BSN is, but it misrepresents the facts.

 

Firstly there are hundreds of posts a day on BSN that are nothing as extreme as that and secondly there are many people on BSN who wouldn't make a post like that but they are supporters of Romance. So you can't use a post like that as a reason that Romance won't work in any RPG, its an unfair comparison to use an extreme view as if that's normal for your average promancer

 

I never said that all people in the BSN are like that. Of course there are many sane individuals in there who are not comparable to the Tali Sweat poster, otherwise the forums themselves would have imploded long ago (though I'd like to mention that the Mass Effect romance subforum got so out of hand that it did get close to imploding, and mods closed it down for that reason, so food for thought). The point is that some people like that can be found there, in opposition to the majority of the Internet who has no such individuals posting that kind of content so openly. The fact that the BSN can be grounds for that kind of content, the fact that it has an ambient where that kind of thing is merely "an extreme example" and not a complete deviation of the standard shunned by the rest of the community is what makes it noteworthy, and that is why it's mentioned so many times.

 

I won't deny that there are people who do, indeed, use the infamous Tali Sweat post with the purpose you stated. Many of them have done so in these forums in the past. But that is not the purpose I intended, and I think I made that clear in my post:

Basically, the post used SCIENCE™ to prove Why Tali Is A Better Waifu Than The Rest, in a context of fans talking and gushing about her character, which is why that post has become infamous and an example of lonely Bioware fans that have crossed the line into creepy obsessiveness. And now you come here and try to use SCIENCE™ to put having romances as a good thing, which is why the comparisons started coming up.

 

I brought up that example mainly because of the content of that post, not because of what it represented. I mentioned what it represented merely to show why it was rather famous and people had brought it up. You're right to say that some of its fame is undeserved, but you can't deny that there is a kernel of truth in it, either.

 

Incidentally, I don't condone the pointing and mocking that some people have done of the people who had their hopes of romance dashed, either. I do believe that some promancers have been very blind to the reality, keeping unrealistic expectations and ignoring all the pointers indicating that what you wanted was never going to happen, but some of the comments thrown at you could be considered to be kind of cruel (or at least unsporting), considering that you're probably still feeling hurt at the news. I'd give them a spanking for not being nice, but alas, I'm not their mother

[anameforobsidian]

"Supporters of romance," "promancers," "anti-romance propaganda," the case for romance in a game as made by "science?"  It's a good thing this thread isn't ridiculous at all.  

 

That said, I'm fairly against romances in games.  The all-powerful agency of the player character combined with the traditional male-power fantasy trip makes game romances fairly rapey.  In a game romance the player decides to pursue the romance, then  they enter into a set of situations that they almost entirely control, if the "right" responses are selected (and can easily be researched ahead of time) the game / npc rewards the character with a sex scene.  That's a power-differential that's far more reminiscent of mind-control porn than an equal relationship between partners.  It can be even more sinister than the Witcher's sex cards, because it can make the player feel good about behaving appropriately in a situation in which they have complete control.  

 

There's also the problem of romances furthering nice guy and girl syndrome.  The player character will do something that's completely appropriate within the context of the scene, like helping a character find their father or giving a gift that a character will like, and being offered sex in exchange.  The whole "I give you ten rings and kill your mother, and then we have sex" mechanic reeks of prostitution. 

Edited February 16, 2014 by anameforobsidian

[BruceVC]

 

That link is nothing but anti-romance propaganda. Its typically used by people to raise how depraved BSN is, but it misrepresents the facts.

 

Firstly there are hundreds of posts a day on BSN that are nothing as extreme as that and secondly there are many people on BSN who wouldn't make a post like that but they are supporters of Romance. So you can't use a post like that as a reason that Romance won't work in any RPG, its an unfair comparison to use an extreme view as if that's normal for your average promancer

 

I never said that all people in the BSN are like that. Of course there are many sane individuals in there who are not comparable to the Tali Sweat poster, otherwise the forums themselves would have imploded long ago (though I'd like to mention that the Mass Effect romance subforum got so out of hand that it did get close to imploding, and mods closed it down for that reason, so food for thought). The point is that some people like that can be found there, in opposition to the majority of the Internet who has no such individuals posting that kind of content so openly. The fact that the BSN can be grounds for that kind of content, the fact that it has an ambient where that kind of thing is merely "an extreme example" and not a complete deviation of the standard shunned by the rest of the community is what makes it noteworthy, and that is why it's mentioned so many times.

 

I won't deny that there are people who do, indeed, use the infamous Tali Sweat post with the purpose you stated. Many of them have done so in these forums in the past. But that is not the purpose I intended, and I think I made that clear in my post:

Basically, the post used SCIENCE™ to prove Why Tali Is A Better Waifu Than The Rest, in a context of fans talking and gushing about her character, which is why that post has become infamous and an example of lonely Bioware fans that have crossed the line into creepy obsessiveness. And now you come here and try to use SCIENCE™ to put having romances as a good thing, which is why the comparisons started coming up.

 

I brought up that example mainly because of the content of that post, not because of what it represented. I mentioned what it represented merely to show why it was rather famous and people had brought it up. You're right to say that some of its fame is undeserved, but you can't deny that there is a kernel of truth in it, either.

 

Incidentally, I don't condone the pointing and mocking that some people have done of the people who had their hopes of romance dashed, either. I do believe that some promancers have been very blind to the reality, keeping unrealistic expectations and ignoring all the pointers indicating that what you wanted was never going to happen, but some of the comments thrown at you could be considered to be kind of cruel (or at least unsporting), considering that you're probably still feeling hurt at the news. I'd give them a spanking for not being nice, but alas, I'm not their mother

 

 

That's a good post and most of it I agree with

[Lurky]

That's a good post and most of it I agree with

 

So you take the parts where I say favorable things to your position and summarily ignore the actual criticism I mixed in, in hopes that you'd be more receptive to it if I put it nicely?

 

No wonder you're still going at this. There's no way to get through that wall of denial, is there?

[BruceVC]

 

That's a good post and most of it I agree with

 

So you take the parts where I say favorable things to your position and summarily ignore the actual criticism I mixed in, in hopes that you'd be more receptive to it if I put it nicely?

 

No wonder you're still going at this. There's no way to get through that wall of denial, is there?

 

 

Lurky you know I like you and I should have also added to my post that I apologize for jumping to some unfair conclusions around what you said

 

 But you must be missing something with my point, I know that Romance in RPG works and is becoming more and more mainstream in the games I play. I know I'm right, you should be trying to blow through that wall of denial that the  the anti-romance army has built. That's your enemy   , there is no denial on our side. We merely relay the facts on ways to enhance any RPG experience in a game.

[NanoPaladin]

 

I have not seen the Tali Sweat thread actually. At any rate I was discussing those biological points because they do play a large part of why people play video games or really do anything. Sure it might have been a little far to go that much into it but both businesses and game companies will use psychology in some form to develop games. Conscious or not. Not taking human behavior and reactions into account when making a horror game such as Dead Space would be quite different if you did not look into what makes humans fear things. Same thing can be said with romance or thriller games. People just over-reacted to the analysis and took it the wrong way it seems. 

 

Then behold, because it can be found here. Enjoy your read.

 

You may have noticed that the conclusion of that analysis was to say that Tali's sweat was pleasant and aphrodisiac and just plain better than that of humans. Basically, the post used SCIENCE™ to prove Why Tali Is A Better Waifu Than The Rest, in a context of fans talking and gushing about her character, which is why that post has become infamous and an example of lonely Bioware fans that have crossed the line into creepy obsessiveness. And now you come here and try to use SCIENCE™ to put having romances as a good thing, which is why the comparisons started coming up.

 

Look, I can understand your desire to let it out and write about your feelings about this topic, because as time has shown people have a lot of strong and very different feelings about it. But you have to be mindful about what you're saying and where. You say that people over-reacted to your analysis and took it the wrong way. I say that what happened is because of your analysis itself, as it is faulty and misplaced. It's faulty because it's incomplete and biased, as Hiro Protagonist II pointed out, and i'ts misplaced because you put it in a forum where people just don't want to talk about this topic anymore. That is why you got that reaction. Hopefully it's clearer now.

 

 

I used science under the impression that maybe people would have found a bit more respect for the research and digging I did into the subject matter. Had I known about the creepy ass Tali sweat analysis I would have just remained quiet. This was like posting about religion in an atheist forum almost, nothing but ridicule and mockery. Which dont get me wrong, it does not really bother me in anyway as it is just the internet. What more would you want in an argument against a romance that is scripted and written outside of budgetary availability and writer's abilities? Those are two extremely powerful reasons when compared to; "Oh you might get another X amount of units sold... and here are some sciency reasons why.." 

 

If no one wanted to talk about it then it is as simple as not replying to the thread. All that did was keep it up on the front page instead of letting it fall into obscurity. 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

If no one wanted to talk about it then it is as simple as not replying to the thread. All that did was keep it up on the front page instead of letting it fall into obscurity. 

 

I think the fact that you created a new thread instead of posting this in the current romance thread shows you wanted people to respond to it and why it didn't go into obscurity. You even said it here that you felt no one would have read it in the other thread. I can guarantee you this sort of post would have been read and replies would have ensued. Like waving a red flag to of a bull. I have to question why anyone would create another romance thread when it would just rile up the forum even more, which it did. If this was posted in the other romance thread, we would have seen the other thread locked by now (due to number of pages and this science topic) and this would have all blown over.

 

While your OP may not have been a troll, It's very close to a troll post and one or two replies from yourself have been trolls when good replies have been given to you. If you're going to use a For and Against argument and bring science into it, you have to use it for both sides of the argument. Anyway, I've said enough. This is my last post on the matter and I'm out of here.

[BruceVC]

 

If no one wanted to talk about it then it is as simple as not replying to the thread. All that did was keep it up on the front page instead of letting it fall into obscurity. 

 

I think the fact that you created a new thread instead of posting this in the current romance thread shows you wanted people to respond to it and why it didn't go into obscurity. You even said it here that you felt no one would have read it in the other thread. I can guarantee you this sort of post would have been read and replies would have ensued. Like waving a red flag to of a bull. I have to question why anyone would create another romance thread when it would just rile up the forum even more, which it did. If this was posted in the other romance thread, we would have seen the other thread locked by now (due to number of pages and this science topic) and this would have all blown over.

 

While your OP may not have been a troll, It's very close to a troll post and one or two replies from yourself have been trolls when good replies have been given to you. If you're going to use a For and Against argument and bring science into it, you have to use it for both sides of the argument. Anyway, I've said enough. This is my last post on the matter and I'm out of here.

 

 

I think some of what you said is unfair considering the several negative responses Nano has received, I feel he has been treated harshly. By your logic I could say " why don't anti-romance people leave this post alone and only post how much they dislike Romance in the other thread ? "

 

Considering the fact there is a relatively strong movement of promancers who are active on these forums I can't see how a post discussing the benefits of Romance is  inciting people to be critical of Romance? Especially when we now know there won't be Romance in PoE, let us have our discussions without it being seen as "waving a red flag in front of a bull "

[FlintlockJazz]

I'm only half-joking, Flintlock. SoZ did have it. Was fun.

 

Wouldn't work in PoE but it would be a groovy RPG. Elements of JA2, perhaps. But, like romances, not everyone's cup of tea.

Yeah, I've got SoZ but haven't had the time to get past the party creation bit yet, didn't realise the strategic element was that strong.  You've bumped it up my list to finally play.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I'm only half-joking, Flintlock. SoZ did have it. Was fun.

 

Wouldn't work in PoE but it would be a groovy RPG. Elements of JA2, perhaps. But, like romances, not everyone's cup of tea.

 

Yeah, I've got SoZ but haven't had the time to get past the party creation bit yet, didn't realise the strategic element was that strong.  You've bumped it up my list to finally play.

It starts out pretty cool, but ends up being very broken by the end game.

[NanoPaladin]

 

 

I'm only half-joking, Flintlock. SoZ did have it. Was fun.

 

Wouldn't work in PoE but it would be a groovy RPG. Elements of JA2, perhaps. But, like romances, not everyone's cup of tea.

Yeah, I've got SoZ but haven't had the time to get past the party creation bit yet, didn't realise the strategic element was that strong.  You've bumped it up my list to finally play.

It starts out pretty cool, but ends up being very broken by the end game.

 

 

I feel silly for asking but what is SoZ short for?

[Doppelschwert]

I feel silly for asking but what is SoZ short for?

 

 

Storm of Zehir, second expansion set to Neverwinter Nights 2.

[BruceVC]

 

 

I'm only half-joking, Flintlock. SoZ did have it. Was fun.
 
Wouldn't work in PoE but it would be a groovy RPG. Elements of JA2, perhaps. But, like romances, not everyone's cup of tea.

Yeah, I've got SoZ but haven't had the time to get past the party creation bit yet, didn't realise the strategic element was that strong.  You've bumped it up my list to finally play.

It starts out pretty cool, but ends up being very broken by the end game.

 

Nah, that's not true. Its a good RPG, not excellent but good, and it has a very unique map system that spawns events and random monsters that is great fun. If you haven't played it yet you must

[IndiraLightfoot]

That's one reason why I really like Obsidian. When they made NWN2, they managed to make three different games: One classic D&D CRPG with their vanilla OC, then MotB. a rather exotic setting and a story masterpiece rolled into one, resting confidently on the shoulders of Planescape: Torment, and finally, topping it all off with SoZ, partly set in steamy jungles, complete with dinosaurs (something we fans asked for, and they delivered, which was great all by itself), and with a fab overland map, which was pretty revolutionary at the time, and a stronghold that was a bit of a economic RPG sim. Well, you get the picture: sweet diversity and great quality. Sure, there were bugs and a few dips, but overall, that trilogy tops everything for me, I reckon, in the world of CRPGs. Sorry, BG1 and BG2!

[BruceVC]

That's one reason why I really like Obsidian. When they made NWN2, they managed to make three different games: One classic D&D CRPG with their vanilla OC, then MotB. a rather exotic setting and a story masterpiece rolled into one, resting confidently on the shoulders of Planescape: Torment, and finally, topping it all off with SoZ, partly set in steamy jungles, complete with dinosaurs (something we fans asked for, and they delivered, which was great all by itself), and with a fab overland map, which was pretty revolutionary at the time, and a stronghold that was a bit of a economic RPG sim. Well, you get the picture: sweet diversity and great quality. Sure, there were bugs and a few dips, but overall, that trilogy tops everything for me, I reckon, in the world of CRPGs. Sorry, BG1 and BG2!

 

That's an accurate and fair assessment of the NWN2 trilogy, nice post. And the dinosaurs were cool

[PrimeJunta]

I never managed to finish SoZ. I got into my usual powergaming mode, and once I had broken the economy I lost interest. Perhaps I'll give it another shot one of these days.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

SoZ is above the OC, but far below MotB. The economy breaks badly after you set trade routes, there are a few broken quests, and it was buggy as hell on release(I believe most issues have been patched out). The world map is the best style for RPGs IMO and the ability to create four party members is cool.

[Monte Carlo]

I know we are OT but comparing SoZ and MotB is a bit apples and oranges. As Indira points out, it was Obz showing off all the different things they could do with one game and one engine. Very clever.

 

Also, SoZ is a bit like IWD2... an engine nearing the end of it's life cycle being McGuyvered into doing something awesome for "one last job."

[PrimeJunta]

My biggest niggle with SoZ is a trivial one. Loading screens. There are so many maps and they're so small that you transition between them a lot. To be genuinely playable, the transition ought to be instantaneous, or as good as. Instead it feels like I'm staring at a loading screen more than actually playing the game.

[Auxilius]

I failed at SoZ, because I arrived underleveled (16) and probably with not very good characters in front of the final boss. And I don't think I cared much about the economy.

At least, I still have Let's Play to make up for my lack of skill.

[Lephys]

Funny how you say you don't discriminate and see unreasonable people, and reasonable people, on whichever side. But then your next sentence is targeting the people who refer to promancers. Your sentence could equally be the same for the people who put up reasonable points against romances and the promancers who bestow some unreasonable argument on them.

I was about to explain, but then you figured it out (bolded portion). Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

My sentence targeted group stereotyping, as people who respond to individual points by counter-arguing against "you promancers" happened to be an example of that. Hence the "or some such" after "you promancers."

 

I was trying to practice my brevity. And yet it seems I was too brief. I'll get there, one day.

 

Lighten up Lephys, nobody can take the bombastic, over the top rhetoric i've been spewing as anything but ridiculous piffle.

My apologies, Nonek. I wasn't meaning to respond directly to you. I took no offense, nor was I meaning to be non-lightened up. It was more of a "on a serious note regarding this non-serious comment by Nonek" thing. Sorry about that. 8P

Edited February 17, 2014 by Lephys

[Gideon Laier]

Hey NanoPaladin,

 

I agree with you. I wish Romances would be included and I'm actually amazed at how many people hate them in these forums. 

 

To me, romance was the difference between Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate. 

It's why I don't remember any of New Vegas' companions.

Yet, why so many people care about and recognize the companions that Bioware has created (Thane, Garrus, Kaiden, Fenris, Alistair, Anders, etc).

 

I think that the best thing that Dragon Age 2 did was perfect the companion system with their Rivalry vs Friendship mechanic. No matter how you played, you influenced your companions and your companions influenced you. But even outside of DA2, the entire Dragon Age and Mass Effect series really made you feel like you were forming bonds with your squad mates. It's what made choosing just 2 or 3 of them so hard!

 

Romance in games isn't this thing for weird people that can't get girlfriends, that's a horrible argument. With a girlfriend I still loved romance in my games and so did my friends that were also in relationships - it's what we talked about the most when we talked about the game. We didn't talk about the combat or the controls. We were playing an RPG, so we talked about the characters and the story. 

 

Even outside of RPG's, romance and friendship are a huge driving force in most stories you'll ever find. There's a difference between making it the main point (which i'm not advocating) vs making it something to complement your already awesome story/game.

 

On the other side of the coin, I do understand that Obsidian has had pretty mediocre track-record with its romances (at least when they tried to implement one) in KOTOR2, Alpha Protocol, and NWN2. But, I think that none of their games suffered because of it. I don't think any games do. And I do think that Pillars can greatly benefit from the inclusion of romance. 

 

Otherwise, It seems more and more like Bioware will be the only one left carrying the torch when it comes to companion relationships. And Bioware's problem is that they can't quite craft a story as well as Obsidian can. Yet, Obsidian can't create characters quite like Bioware.

 

It seems that, instead of refusing to do romances, why don't you just choose to implement them well and put some effort into them? If you're going to be including companion interaction in any form, even if it's just friendships, then the extra addition of romances isn't hard at all.

[BruceVC]

o

Hey NanoPaladin,

 

I agree with you. I wish Romances would be included and I'm actually amazed at how many people hate them in these forums. 

 

To me, romance was the difference between Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate. 

It's why I don't remember any of New Vegas' companions.

Yet, why so many people care about and recognize the companions that Bioware has created (Thane, Garrus, Kaiden, Fenris, Alistair, Anders, etc).

 

I think that the best thing that Dragon Age 2 did was perfect the companion system with their Rivalry vs Friendship mechanic. No matter how you played, you influenced your companions and your companions influenced you. But even outside of DA2, the entire Dragon Age and Mass Effect series really made you feel like you were forming bonds with your squad mates. It's what made choosing just 2 or 3 of them so hard!

 

Romance in games isn't this thing for weird people that can't get girlfriends, that's a horrible argument. With a girlfriend I still loved romance in my games and so did my friends that were also in relationships - it's what we talked about the most when we talked about the game. We didn't talk about the combat or the controls. We were playing an RPG, so we talked about the characters and the story. 

 

Even outside of RPG's, romance and friendship are a huge driving force in most stories you'll ever find. There's a difference between making it the main point (which i'm not advocating) vs making it something to complement your already awesome story/game.

 

On the other side of the coin, I do understand that Obsidian has had pretty mediocre track-record with its romances (at least when they tried to implement one) in KOTOR2, Alpha Protocol, and NWN2. But, I think that none of their games suffered because of it. I don't think any games do. And I do think that Pillars can greatly benefit from the inclusion of romance. 

 

Otherwise, It seems more and more like Bioware will be the only one left carrying the torch when it comes to companion relationships. And Bioware's problem is that they can't quite craft a story as well as Obsidian can. Yet, Obsidian can't create characters quite like Bioware.

 

It seems that, instead of refusing to do romances, why don't you just choose to implement them well and put some effort into them? If you're going to be including companion interaction in any form, even if it's just friendships, then the extra addition of romances isn't hard at all.

 

That's a very good post and you make some relevant points

 

And you have made me realize something else, I remember very few characters in my party through the various RPG I have played but I do remember the characters I shared Romance with.  So for me another benefit around Romance is the obvious deeper interaction you have with people and this allows you to not just remember them as faceless people in your party but someone of significance in your memory of the game.

 

This is a very valid observation  

[Stun]

That's a very good post and you make some relevant points

 

And you have made me realize something else, I remember very few characters in my party through the various RPG I have played but I do remember the characters I shared Romance with.  So for me another benefit around Romance is the obvious deeper interaction you have with people and this allows you to not just remember them as faceless people in your party but someone of significance in your memory of the game.

 

This is a very valid observation

It's a valid Observation, but I'm not sure it's universal truth that Romances automatically = more memorable characters. People will remember NPCs who are well written and who are prolifically represented in a video game. (read: lots of lines either spoken or text) Whether they're romanceable or not makes little difference.

 

Romances are certainly a way to make a character memorable. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. What IS in dispute is whether it's the best way. I happen to be in the camp of people who say it's not. And for my argument, I can say this. In my years of gaming the characters I remember most are:

 

1)Irenicus

2)Morte

3)Fall-From-Grace

4)Serevok

5)Neeshka

6)Viconia

7) Roche

 

^And only one of these is romanceable.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Stun